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Old
10-18-2004, 09:46 AM
  #1
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Prospect Rankings

Interesting bit of news out of Albany where the Devils top rated defensive prospect was cut. Anton Kadeykin (7C) who is rated equal to two Ranger prospects and rated higher than five ranger prospects, three of whom have already seen NHL action, was sent packing from the Rats who were one the worst teams in the AHL last year. Either he was vastly over rated or we are thinking too highly of our own prospects. Makes you wonder how truly objective those individuals ranking the devils prospects are.

Thomas Pock 7B (9A)
Maxim Kondratiev 7B (9A)
David Liffiton 6.5B (8.5A)
Jake Taylor 6.5B (8.5A)
Bryce Lampman 6B (8A)
Ivan Baranka 6C (8B)
Nathan Guenin 5.5C (7.5B)

I've placed the obvious equivalent Devil ranking next to our players so we can all do a better comparison.


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10-18-2004, 10:10 AM
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ratings are done by each teams respective writers so there will obviously be inconsistencies

regardless that is no way to judge whether a prospect rating is warrented

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10-18-2004, 11:39 AM
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besides the fact that the ratings don't translate from 1 team to another, another question that needs to be asked is why didn't he make the team in albany. there are a number of reasons that it could have happened and if it was because he isn't ready yet that doesn't mean he won't be a good player down the road...

liffiton, taylor and helminen will probably end up in charlotte, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their future potential was overrated, it just means they have some work to do before they reach that potential.

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10-18-2004, 11:55 AM
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Or that their position is stronger in the club than some others...

At any rate, it's difficult to base comparisons on the case of one individual prospect...how did the other ranked prospects do? What is their forecast for 2004-05?

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10-18-2004, 11:55 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by NYR469
liffiton, taylor and helminen will probably end up in charlotte, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their future potential was overrated, it just means they have some work to do before they reach that potential.
Ending up in Charlotte is fairly auspicous. While, yes, it DOES mean that there is a chance that they still make usefull NHLers, HOWEVER not being good enough to make an AHL team does not usually bode well for your future. It's not like these guys are from juniors (except Liffiton), wheras one can make the youth excuse if they are young enough. They are not.
By and large, most "prospects" that are not good enough for the AHL, but are good enough for the ECHL wind up like Jeff Ulmer. Good enough to play with men in a lesser league, but not anywhere good enough to get a sniff of the NHL.

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10-18-2004, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Ending up in Charlotte is fairly auspicous. While, yes, it DOES mean that there is a chance that they still make usefull NHLers, HOWEVER not being good enough to make an AHL team does not usually bode well for your future. It's not like these guys are from juniors (except Liffiton), wheras one can make the youth excuse if they are young enough. They are not.
By and large, most "prospects" that are not good enough for the AHL, but are good enough for the ECHL wind up like Jeff Ulmer. Good enough to play with men in a lesser league, but not anywhere good enough to get a sniff of the NHL.
In a normal year I might agree with you. But not this season.

This is the Wolfpack starting six:

Tjutin-Kondraitev
Nycholat-Lampman
Grenier-MacMillian

In any other year, Tjutin and either Kondraitev or Lampman are in New York. That's three more spots available for Pock, Liffiton, and Taylor to compete for.

If they hadn't made the team last year, I'd be concerned. This year? Not so much. This is a very, very deep Wolfpack team.

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10-18-2004, 12:29 PM
  #7
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Isn't Pock hurt? I'm pretty sure he'd make the team otherwise.

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10-18-2004, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
In a normal year I might agree with you. But not this season.

This is the Wolfpack starting six:

Tjutin-Kondraitev
Nycholat-Lampman
Grenier-MacMillian

In any other year, Tjutin and either Kondraitev or Lampman are in New York. That's three more spots available for Pock, Liffiton, and Taylor to compete for.

If they hadn't made the team last year, I'd be concerned. This year? Not so much. This is a very, very deep Wolfpack team.
There's also the age-old argument over playing time.

Doesn't it make sense that, just as a prospect is better served by playing 1st or 2nd line or pairing minutes in the AHL than 5-minutes a game in the NHL, isn't he better served by playing good minutes in the ECHL than just getting a nose in in the AHL?

The Rangers have a bunch of players going to Charlotte, and some of them wouldn't normally be there. If you figure that Ortmeyer, Balej, and Tjutin (at least) would be with the Rangers next season, that's already 3 top positions opened up. Perhaps the Rangers feeling is that some of the prospects who are going to go to Charlotte this year could have played those postions for the WolfPack, but it wouldn't be a good idea to have them on the bottom pairing or the 3rd- or 4th-line.

I know very little about minor-league hockey (though I expect to learn a lot this season!), so feel free to correct me.

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10-18-2004, 12:53 PM
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For Taylor, Helminen and Liffiton...

to end up in Charlotte does not mean anything negative. These guys are 21 and younger. Two of which are defensive-style playing defensmen,for whom development can take a little longer. Taylor, from most accounts, seems to be a solid player who should've played in college a couple more years because he really wasn't ready to make the jump. Liffiton's only played 3 years in juniors and only turns 20 today (happy birthday, David, by the way). Helminen, well, perhaps he just didn't beat out guys like Betts, Murray and others who may man a third line, and isn't top two line material. The thought is, most likely, that if they weren't ready for the AHL, they take their licks in the ECHL and when there was a season (perhaps thinking of January) these guys may be ready for the AHL, for which there will be several spots opening (Kondratiev and Tyutin on defense and Balej at forward, thus opening spots for those three). I'm not looking at is as a negative. It's not a positive, but isn't negative either.

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10-18-2004, 07:01 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
There's also the age-old argument over playing time.

Doesn't it make sense that, just as a prospect is better served by playing 1st or 2nd line or pairing minutes in the AHL than 5-minutes a game in the NHL, isn't he better served by playing good minutes in the ECHL than just getting a nose in in the AHL?

The Rangers have a bunch of players going to Charlotte, and some of them wouldn't normally be there. If you figure that Ortmeyer, Balej, and Tjutin (at least) would be with the Rangers next season, that's already 3 top positions opened up. Perhaps the Rangers feeling is that some of the prospects who are going to go to Charlotte this year could have played those postions for the WolfPack, but it wouldn't be a good idea to have them on the bottom pairing or the 3rd- or 4th-line.

I know very little about minor-league hockey (though I expect to learn a lot this season!), so feel free to correct me.
Absolutely! Though I'd phrase it a little differently.

It's not so much the quantity of minutes that will be different, but the roles.

Pock is supposed to be training to be a PP specialist, top-four scoring defenseman. He needs PP minutes, a steady reliable partner, and teammates who'll do the heavy lifting in his own zone. But on a team with Tjutin, Kondraitev, and Nycholat, PP time is going to be very hard to come by. And it's a small, young group up top who need a protector and some veteran stability (better provided by Grenier and MacMillian) than more green youngsters like Liffiton and Taylor, or another scorer like Pock.

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10-18-2004, 08:55 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Absolutely! Though I'd phrase it a little differently.

It's not so much the quantity of minutes that will be different, but the roles.

Pock is supposed to be training to be a PP specialist, top-four scoring defenseman. He needs PP minutes, a steady reliable partner, and teammates who'll do the heavy lifting in his own zone. But on a team with Tjutin, Kondraitev, and Nycholat, PP time is going to be very hard to come by. And it's a small, young group up top who need a protector and some veteran stability (better provided by Grenier and MacMillian) than more green youngsters like Liffiton and Taylor, or another scorer like Pock.
Interesting, that you should mention Pöck, because he was actually one of the guys I was thinking of who would cause the others to lose icetime if they played for the Pack. I would think that Pöck would cost guys like Nycholat or Lampman.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread: I don't see why the Devils d-men are overrated. Their top-rated guy is a 7C, emphasis on the C. That means that IF he makes it, he could be good, but a C-rating means that he could well be a bust. I'm not familiar with the Devils farm system, so I'm surprised by how lousy the Devils d-men prospects are rated, according to this website. Then again, they have two young d-men who have already played in the NHL in Hale and Martin.

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10-18-2004, 10:22 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
Interesting, that you should mention Pöck, because he was actually one of the guys I was thinking of who would cause the others to lose icetime if they played for the Pack. I would think that Pöck would cost guys like Nycholat or Lampman.
Lampman has never been a scorer at the AHL level. The arrival of Kondraitev, and the continued stellar play of Nycholat and Tjutin, should pretty much push him entirely off the PP. And that's before Pock even gets on the roster.

The problem is that Nycholat is a very, very good AHL defenseman, and he isn't old. The Rangers/Pack would be ill-advised to give him away for nothing because if/when the lockout ends and Tjutin and Co. go up, he'll be needed in Hartford to hold things together (and because he's still a viable candidate as a depth NHL defenseman). But you cannot reasonably stash Nycholat on the 3rd pair and take away his PP time for Pock. He's just too much better a player right now.

My assumption is that the Pack will try to slide Pock into a few games here and there until they find out what Kondraitev is going to do. If he goes back to Russia, Pock stays in Hartford. If Kondraitev stays, they move Pock to Charlotte and see how the lockout goes. Maybe they move Nycholat if things get desperate (really long lockout, Pock playing out of his mind in Charlotte) but they'll wait if they are smart.

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10-18-2004, 10:23 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Ending up in Charlotte is fairly auspicous. While, yes, it DOES mean that there is a chance that they still make usefull NHLers, HOWEVER not being good enough to make an AHL team does not usually bode well for your future. It's not like these guys are from juniors (except Liffiton), wheras one can make the youth excuse if they are young enough. They are not.
By and large, most "prospects" that are not good enough for the AHL, but are good enough for the ECHL wind up like Jeff Ulmer. Good enough to play with men in a lesser league, but not anywhere good enough to get a sniff of the NHL.
in a normal year maybe...but in a normal year 2-3 spots in hartford would open up with guys in ny and both liffiton & taylor would be in charlotte...

this has more to do with sheer numbers and trying to find them playing time, not them not being able to play in the ahl...

i'll also add that i think that sather is a absolute moron for signing taylor 3 years early from minnesota if he wasn't 100% sure he would play in hartford...imo one of the stupidest moves he's made so far

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10-18-2004, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Lampman has never been a scorer at the AHL level. The arrival of Kondraitev, and the continued stellar play of Nycholat and Tjutin, should pretty much push him entirely off the PP. And that's before Pock even gets on the roster.

The problem is that Nycholat is a very, very good AHL defenseman, and he isn't old. The Rangers/Pack would be ill-advised to give him away for nothing because if/when the lockout ends and Tjutin and Co. go up, he'll be needed in Hartford to hold things together (and because he's still a viable candidate as a depth NHL defenseman). But you cannot reasonably stash Nycholat on the 3rd pair and take away his PP time for Pock. He's just too much better a player right now.

My assumption is that the Pack will try to slide Pock into a few games here and there until they find out what Kondraitev is going to do. If he goes back to Russia, Pock stays in Hartford. If Kondraitev stays, they move Pock to Charlotte and see how the lockout goes. Maybe they move Nycholat if things get desperate (really long lockout, Pock playing out of his mind in Charlotte) but they'll wait if they are smart.
Why not move Grenier from D to LW or RW since all he does is fight, and put Pock in his place and maybe move a forward like Gillies.

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10-19-2004, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Lampman has never been a scorer at the AHL level. The arrival of Kondraitev, and the continued stellar play of Nycholat and Tjutin, should pretty much push him entirely off the PP. And that's before Pock even gets on the roster.

The problem is that Nycholat is a very, very good AHL defenseman, and he isn't old. The Rangers/Pack would be ill-advised to give him away for nothing because if/when the lockout ends and Tjutin and Co. go up, he'll be needed in Hartford to hold things together (and because he's still a viable candidate as a depth NHL defenseman). But you cannot reasonably stash Nycholat on the 3rd pair and take away his PP time for Pock. He's just too much better a player right now.

My assumption is that the Pack will try to slide Pock into a few games here and there until they find out what Kondraitev is going to do. If he goes back to Russia, Pock stays in Hartford. If Kondraitev stays, they move Pock to Charlotte and see how the lockout goes. Maybe they move Nycholat if things get desperate (really long lockout, Pock playing out of his mind in Charlotte) but they'll wait if they are smart.
Is there a chance that they'd loan out one of their d-men? I know it's possible, but I don't know how often it's done.

Thinking aloud, I'm sure the Rangers wouldn't outsource the development of their prospects, but perhaps one of the AHL guys. I also don't know who'd be a taker -- I'm sure all AHL teams have this sort of a problem right now.

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10-19-2004, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOrtmeyer41
Why not move Grenier from D to LW or RW since all he does is fight, and put Pock in his place and maybe move a forward like Gillies.
Right now, Grenier is probably a better defenseman than Pock is, at least in his own zone. He's still only 23, and moving him to forward essentially ends any chance of him developing into an everyday player. I'm not holding Grenier out to be the next Chris Pronger, but he sure looks like he's capable of being the next Eric Cairns.

Do you really want to hurt his chances so badly just to get Pock a spot in Hartford that he's not really built to play? (he'd be 5th dman with no PP time if he takes Grenier's spot.) And didn't you just take a huge chunk of size and toughness out of the Pack's defense? Without Grenier the only defenseman over 6'2" is MacMillian. And he's not exactly Hatcher. The rest are all two-way puckmover types, most of whom aren't terribly big. Teams are already targeting Tjutin for physical abuse to try to get him off his game . . . doesn't this make it a heck of a lot easier?

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10-19-2004, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
Is there a chance that they'd loan out one of their d-men? I know it's possible, but I don't know how often it's done.

Thinking aloud, I'm sure the Rangers wouldn't outsource the development of their prospects, but perhaps one of the AHL guys. I also don't know who'd be a taker -- I'm sure all AHL teams have this sort of a problem right now.
Certainly they could. But the question is, should they?

Tjutin-Kondraitev
Nycholat-Lampman
Grenier-MacMillian

That's the top six. The moment the lockout ends, the Pack lose 2-3 of those guys. Lets say they loan out Nycholat, and the lockout ends and Tjutin and Kondraitev go to New York. Now it's:

Lampman-MacMillian
Pock-Grenier
Liffiton-Taylor

The pre-lockout group is young, no player over 25, with an excellent balance of talent, offense, grit, and experience. The second group? Yikes. Grenier is not a top four defenseman, even in the AHL. Pock is a rookie with two years of experience on defense and he's suddenly the primary option on the PP and playing 18 minutes a night against all comers. Liffiton and Taylor are going to get slaughtered out there as an all rookie duo that isn't even close to ready.

Basically, Nycholat and MacMillian are part of a contingency plan. If/when the lockout ends, they're there to hold together the Wolfpack's defense so that it doesn't become absolute chaos in front of whichever kid goalie the Rangers have in net. At the moment they may seem uneeded because there is so much depth... but it doesn't take much hypothesizing to see that if the tide goes out (Lockout ends) they'll be needed very badly.

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10-19-2004, 01:17 PM
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ECHL for the younger guys is not bad.

Liffiton, Taylor need ice time. In a normal year they would be with Hartford of that there is not doubt. The question I have pertains to the coaching they will get. Hartford is loaded with not only McGill & Nicky, but also the NYR's Ass't coaches. I am surprised by some comments here that this "demotion" has a negative connotation attached to it. I think it is simply a numbers game. Taylor I think most people will find is better suited to the pro game than the college game, just MHO. Liffiton I think needed to move on, a 4th yr in Jrs was not going to do much for him. I expect both of them to struggle a bit right off the bat, but get the grasp of the pro game by the holidays. I live in Gwinnett County and they have a ECHL team and plus Greenville is only 1 1/2 hrs away and Charlotte another hr. So I plan to see some games if a number of the younger guys play for the checkers.

On the Devil player, they, the Rats have 3 veteran AHL types on D, 26-28 yrs old. A 4th player is a younger guy who has played in the ECHL. There reassigning him in light of what they replaced him with doesn't sound too good.

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10-19-2004, 01:39 PM
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liffiton and taylor going to charlotte isn't a big deal IMO, cuz they can probably use the experience well

but pock going to charlotte is a horrible situation IMO. pock is too good for charlotte, i don't think it will do a ******* thing for him except keep him doing something. it's basically a pretty ******* big step back for pock to go to the ECHL and i'd worry it does more to stunt his development than it does to help

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10-19-2004, 01:56 PM
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Kubera...

why wouldn't Pock just take Nycholat's spot? He may be better and thus deserves the spot.

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10-19-2004, 03:29 PM
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If you have noticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate
liffiton and taylor going to charlotte isn't a big deal IMO, cuz they can probably use the experience well

but pock going to charlotte is a horrible situation IMO. pock is too good for charlotte, i don't think it will do a ******* thing for him except keep him doing something. it's basically a pretty ******* big step back for pock to go to the ECHL and i'd worry it does more to stunt his development than it does to help
All of the inexperienced Dmen are heading to Charlotte. Pock was hurt and is behind. So it gives him a chance to regain his game in a less stressed environment. Eventually he will be in Hartford quaterbacking the PP.

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10-19-2004, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch
why wouldn't Pock just take Nycholat's spot? He may be better and thus deserves the spot.
Key word: 'may' be better.

Remember, Nycholat is 25, Pock's only about three years younger. Nycholat is about the same size. He scores great at the AHL level (a big step-up from NCAA), he's tougher, and has about a decade more experience playing defense. The only thing Pock can do better right now is skate.

Could Pock be better eventually? Sure. But dropping Nycholat now, with the sword of damaclies (lockout, and I know I spelt that wrong) is a dangerous and likely unwarranted move.

Look, the ECHL isn't the ideal location for Pock. But it's only for as long as Kondraitev stays, no one gets hurt on defense for the pack, for as long as he can't outplay Nycholat, or for the duration of the lockout, whichever happens first. Worst case scenario is about a year, with a fair number of call-up games as guys get nicked up in the AHL. If Pock is really so good, then that should hardly derail his career.

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10-20-2004, 08:47 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
Liffiton, Taylor need ice time. In a normal year they would be with Hartford of that there is not doubt. The question I have pertains to the coaching they will get. Hartford is loaded with not only McGill & Nicky, but also the NYR's Ass't coaches. I am surprised by some comments here that this "demotion" has a negative connotation attached to it. I think it is simply a numbers game. Taylor I think most people will find is better suited to the pro game than the college game, just MHO. Liffiton I think needed to move on, a 4th yr in Jrs was not going to do much for him. I expect both of them to struggle a bit right off the bat, but get the grasp of the pro game by the holidays. I live in Gwinnett County and they have a ECHL team and plus Greenville is only 1 1/2 hrs away and Charlotte another hr. So I plan to see some games if a number of the younger guys play for the checkers.

On the Devil player, they, the Rats have 3 veteran AHL types on D, 26-28 yrs old. A 4th player is a younger guy who has played in the ECHL. There reassigning him in light of what they replaced him with doesn't sound too good.

If you take a look at the Checkers website at www.gocheckers.com, you will see that their head coach is Derek Wilkinson and helping him out is Ranger assistant coach Mike Pelino, just like Perry Pearn is helping out McGill and Fotiu. It looks like they are going to try and implement the same system throughout the Wolfpack and the Checkers that the Ranger coaches see as the system for the future.

http://www.gocheckers.com/news/?cat=1&id=172

Quote:
“It’s absolutely great,” said Checkers Head Coach Derek Wilkinson. “This unique opportunity is a first for our organization and it shows the dedication of the Rangers to the development of players and coaches alike.” Wilkinson added “For me personally, it is invaluable to have a mentor with Mike’s experience as we practice, evaluate players, and prepare for the season. You couldn’t ask for anything better.”
So the players going to Charlotte will get plenty of icetime in the same system and be ready, if and when the NHL season begins, to step right into Hartford as better prepared players.

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10-20-2004, 09:42 AM
  #24
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Kubera...

it would be a tough sell to send Pock down to the ECHL after the year he had in college (as a defenseman) and after scoring two goals and tallying two assists in six NHL games. You normally do not go from that, to the ECHL, under any circumstances. Nycholat's 25 and has played in about nine NHL games tallying zero points and not being overly impressive in any facet. If there was a choice to be made as to who gets a Hartford spot and the choice was between Pock and Nycholat, I would tend to believe that Pock would be getting that spot. At this point, I'd gather he's rated higher on the prospect chart than Nycholat (who may soon be designated as a career AHLer), and he should be given a chance to build on what was a decent six-game stint in the NHL to end last season.

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10-20-2004, 09:46 AM
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there is no doubt that Pock has by far the higher upside of the 2 so if one or the other is going to get a spot in Hartford I'd certainly take Pock.

Pock should concentrate on his positioning all year and with his great skating and offensive capabilities I think he'll certainly be a future NYR top 6 guy for many yrs to come.

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