HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

What are some interesting players to target?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-01-2012, 05:13 PM
  #126
Harpo
Lyle forever
 
Harpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 895
vCash: 500
All in all, if we had a healthy Markov in the last two years, things would have been really different. Thing is, we can't count on him.

Hindsight is 20/20, but with Markov gone a couple of years ago, we would have had more success in the playoffs, and would be sitting 5th or 6th right now.

And I love Markov. But his injuries have set us back, big time.

Harpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 05:17 PM
  #127
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
You know your definition of N.1 center is wrong when Kopitar is considered a "below average" N.1 center.
Like I said... move him up. I have no problem with that at all. No matter where I put guys folks are going to disagree on this player or that one. I have no problem with moving him up at all. He can fit in that group above him but he's not going to be at the top of that group. The group I have him in he's at the top. If you wanted to swap him out for say... Spezza or Marleau though that's fine.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 05:18 PM
  #128
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
I think you're mistaking #1 centers for superstars, and also massively overrating offensive stats in your ranking.
Well I can't say I'm surprised that Lafleurs' Guy #1 criteria would be offensive production (and specifically point production in this case, not goal production). That's sort of why I asked for his definition. Do I detect a side helping of reputation playing into it, though?

Also, I'm not sure if he, or many people in this thread, realize that the number of centers who scored 30 goals in each the last three seasons has three names on it: Crosby, Stamkos, and Carter (with HM to Eric Staal who missed by just one goal). Dude's been a top-15 goal-scorer for three years running. Me, I'm more concerned about Jeff Carter's ability to outplay other top-liners, but for people who diss Gomez for not scoring a goal in almost a year, and who say the Habs suck at scoring goals, I would've thought this tidbit would be very important.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 05:21 PM
  #129
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Well I can't say I'm surprised that Lafleurs' Guy #1 criteria would be offensive production (and specifically point production in this case, not goal production). Do I detect a side helping of reputation?
Yeah, silly me. I guess number one centers aren't actually supposed to produce offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Also, I'm not sure if he, or many people in this thread, realize that the number of centers who scored 30 goals in each the last three seasons has three names on it: Crosby, Stamkos, and Carter (with HM to Eric Staal who missed by just one goal). Dude's been a top-15 goal-scorer for three years running. Me, I'm more concerned about Jeff Carter's ability to outplay other top-liners, but for people who diss Gomez for not scoring a goal in almost a year, I would've thought this tidbit would be very important.
Yeah, I forgot Scott Gomez... he's definitely among the strong first line centers in the league. Because you know, offense means nothing there. As for Carter being one of only three centers to score 30 in the last three seaons... that's great. I guess some of the other guys got hurt here or there or were too busy racking up 100 point seasons like Henrik Sedin.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 05:22 PM
  #130
Lshap
Registered User
 
Lshap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I want a first line center too. That's another reason why we shouldn't go after Carter, he prevents us from getting one. That guy's not a number one any more than Gomez was.

Do you not see this man? Getting him is just repeating what we always do. We get a guy who fills the role of 2nd line center and then pretend hes' a first. Only this time you want us to pay him for ten years?

What is it about rebuilding through picks and prospects that has you so scared? I just don't get it. You sit there and argue should pick up this monstrosity of a contract? As for Pittsburgh, Detroit and Chicago... they all have bonafide superstars on those teams. Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk... those guys actually ARE number one centers. And do you know how they got them? Through the DRAFT! Boston and now Philly have dealt for a bunch of prospects and picks one of whom became Tyler Seguin.

THAT's the way we should go man. Jeff Carter only ensures more mediocrity, only this time it's for TEN years. No thanks.
I've responded to you before on this same subject. Your logic makes sense to me -- I'd love that franchise player, and the draft is the only way to get him. Problem is I don't think it'll work out. We're nowhere near bad enough to land a top-three or four pick by ourselves, and I doubt we have the resources to tempt some team into giving up theirs. Plus, prime UFAs likely won't come here. We're stuck in purgatory.

If that's the case, our only option is to assemble two strong second lines. No stars, perhaps, but two solid scoring lines. We were SUPPOSED to have that this year with Cammy and Gionta, but it didn't work out for them, for different reasons. Yeah, I'd prefer nurturing a 40 to 50 goal scorer, but I think we'd succeed as well with two more 25-goal scorers. Right now, we have a good second line. Create another line that could match them and we may actually have a team that can score when needed. Carter has the talent to fit that bill, even with his limits. Would he be a good fit here? Who knows, but I wouldn't close the door to that caliber of player. He may not be a franchise player, but he's better than mediocre. Does that mean I'm giving up on having a real number-one line? Yes, I guess I am. Partly because of the positioning of our franchise, and partly because our management is notoriously risk-averse. Does that also mean I'm giving up on winning? No. There's never only one formula for assembling a winner. We may still get there, just not in the way you and I envision.

Lshap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 06:06 PM
  #131
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
I've responded to you before on this same subject. Your logic makes sense to me -- I'd love that franchise player, and the draft is the only way to get him. Problem is I don't think it'll work out. We're nowhere near bad enough to land a top-three or four pick by ourselves, and I doubt we have the resources to tempt some team into giving up theirs. Plus, prime UFAs likely won't come here. We're stuck in purgatory.
I think we're in line for a top four pick as we speak. And Anaheim IS going to pass us. If we dealt away a guy like Pleks, we'd probably sink further plus we'd get the return in that trade.

This is a lost season anyway (just as it was when we should've dealt away Souray) so we might as well use it to do the rebuild we've been putting off forever. I'll respond to the rest of this later.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 06:33 PM
  #132
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah, silly me. I guess number one centers aren't actually supposed to produce offense.
They're actually supposed to do more than that... but I've never known you to see anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I guess some of the other guys got hurt here or there or were too busy racking up 100 point seasons like Henrik Sedin.
I'm just saying that you have a guy who's scored an average of 38 goals scored over the last three seasons. I would've thought that would've counted for something in your world, since you clearly view goal-scoring as important. At least, I think you do.

(BTW, mea culpa; Stamkos didn't score 30 goals in 2008-2009, leaving only Crosby and Carter. And Marleau if one still considers him a center, but the NHL doesn't and I don't think he's played much C in a while has he?)

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 06:52 PM
  #133
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,852
vCash: 50
I wanna expand on a small list I made yesterday:

Somewhat Realistic Targets

Vermette

Why? speedy, good on face-off, 6'1, versatile.
Status: 3.75 a year till 2015(3 years after this one)

Okposo

Why? Reclaimation Project with good upside. 20+ goals on a good team would be ideal. Would fit well with Kostitsyn-Eller
Status: 2.8 mil a year till 2016(4 years after this one)

Clarkson

Why? Tough, physical, good complimentary producer. Would fit in well with Kostitsyn-Eller.
Status: 1 year left(after this year), 2.666 a year

Thorburn

Why? 6'3 230, physical, can play a good 4th line role, kills PK and can play center and wing.
Status: 866,667 a year, 2 years left after this one.

Pahlsson

Why? Good checking line center, might be a great fit with moen(won cup together) and would take some harder checking assignments off Plekanec.
Status: UFA after this year.

Stoll

Why? Can play center, can play wing. Good on faceoffs and plays a two-way game. Can be a top 9 forward who can fill in center or wing depending on matchups and injuries. Has a great shot and plays point on PP.
Status: UFA after this year.

Penner

Why? Massive buy low candidate. At the right price, nothing to lose. Size and skill to easily be a top 9 guy.
Status: UFA after this year.

Semin

Why? Habs may go into next year with Bourque, Cole, Kostitsyn and pacioretty as top 9 wingers along with Gionta. None of which possess the goal scoring and talent Semin has. Semin might be a nice fit as a skilled winger now that the habs have a more physical and bigger winger group. Price tag has dropped, might be a good buy low option.
Status: UFA after this year

B. Stuart

Why? Excellent top 4 d-man who can be a two-way guy on the habs. Would replace gill and help gorges with shutdown assignments.
Status: UFA after this year.

Sarich

Why? Big, physical, shutdown d-man. Fights and can be a good leader. Useful in a role to replace Gill.
Status: UFA after this year.

Gaustad

Why? Big center with physicality for 4th line. Would do well with moen and white.
Status: UFA after this year.




That's it for now but these aren't the big star names like weber, suter and parise and might be easily to acquire and would fill a role on the team IMO.


Last edited by LyricalLyricist: 02-01-2012 at 07:21 PM.
LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 06:56 PM
  #134
29dryden29
Registered User
 
29dryden29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,646
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
hahahah Pathetic offer

Gill ? Darche ? Really ? Really ?
They are not really in a great position to bargain and ask for too much as suter is UFA unless they could guarantee he signs then the trade is made but he already said he won't sign till after the season which tells me he is ready to test the market. Pretty tough for the Preds to demand too much for him in that situation. I mean really they take a deal like that or watch him walk away for nothing which do you prefer as a GM some return or nothing at all?

Rumors on twitter are AK going to the Preds for Blake and Blum and a pick.

29dryden29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 07:04 PM
  #135
Lebowski
Registered User
 
Lebowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Like I said... move him up. I have no problem with that at all. No matter where I put guys folks are going to disagree on this player or that one. I have no problem with moving him up at all. He can fit in that group above him but he's not going to be at the top of that group. The group I have him in he's at the top. If you wanted to swap him out for say... Spezza or Marleau though that's fine.
It doesn't matter, really. I think you're confusing N.1 centers with franchise players. Not many teams have the opportunity to have a Crosby, Stamkos, Sedin, Malkin or Tavares on their team.

Plekanec might not be a dominant N.1 center, but strictly number wise, without even considering what he brings defensively, he is, theoretically, a N.1 center.

Would the Habs be a better team with a legit N.1 center, by your definition? Of course. But as per your definition, they are an extremely rare breed. We might grab one in this upcoming draft, though.

Lebowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 07:10 PM
  #136
WhiskeySeven
Enlarged Member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,707
vCash: 500
We could acquire Pahlsson and resign Moen and try to get a checking line going on finally.

That 4th line of ours is the worst thing in the world. Darche - Enq - Weber.

WhiskeySeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 07:22 PM
  #137
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,852
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
We could acquire Pahlsson and resign Moen and try to get a checking line going on finally.

That 4th line of ours is the worst thing in the world. Darche - Enq - Weber.
Not sure if you took it off my list but I agree with you. No 1st line center would be able to make 70 or so points if they gotta worry about defensive matchups. Granted, some guys do it but they aren't 1st line centers, they are elite centers. Plek isn't that but he can still be a 1B for us.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 08:21 PM
  #138
WhiskeySeven
Enlarged Member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not sure if you took it off my list but I agree with you. No 1st line center would be able to make 70 or so points if they gotta worry about defensive matchups. Granted, some guys do it but they aren't 1st line centers, they are elite centers. Plek isn't that but he can still be a 1B for us.
It is from your list but I just had another thought: Has Pahlsson lost a step?

WhiskeySeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 09:53 PM
  #139
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They're actually supposed to do more than that... but I've never known you to see anything else.
No doubt they are. That doesn't mean I'm going to take Plekanec over John Tavares. You'll notice I have Datsyuk among the elite. His production isn't as good as Crosby's or Malkin's but his defensive play warrants him being there. Toews probably should be there too but this is his first year with great offensive totals so I have him on the bubble. Feel free to move him up if you want to.

Maybe you think Sedin should be in the below average centers then? Would that make you feel better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I'm just saying that you have a guy who's scored an average of 38 goals scored over the last three seasons. I would've thought that would've counted for something in your world, since you clearly view goal-scoring as important. At least, I think you do.
That average is greatly helped by one big season where he scored 46 goals. The last two years he's been in the mid to low 30s and has managed around 65 points. If he'd continued on the pace set four seasons ago, I'd move him up. But he's been a mid 60 point player and was on pace this year to get less than 20 goals and around 40 points.

Right now, I don't see him being any better than any of the following players:

Kopitar (no way, if anything he should be moved up)
Brad Richards (no way, if anything he should be moved up)
Kesler (no)
Seguin (I'd take Seguin despite the youth.)
Staal (no)
Lecavalier (no)
RNH (see Seguin)
Getzlaff (I prefer Getzlaf as he's rugged and a great playmaker. Carter's goals are nice though)

Which guy would you rather have, Carter or any of the other guys on that list? Both Vinny and Staal have been consistently better and have better track records. I personally don't see Carter being as good as any of those players now. Maybe Getzlaf moves down to the below average center section but Carter really doesn't warrant moving up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
(BTW, mea culpa; Stamkos didn't score 30 goals in 2008-2009, leaving only Crosby and Carter. And Marleau if one still considers him a center, but the NHL doesn't and I don't think he's played much C in a while has he?)
30 goals is nice but it doesn't make you an elite player. Esp when you pair it with 30 assists. Again, the stats your looking at include one big year from three years ago and omit the terrible season he was having now. 35 goals and 30 assists is really nice but it doesn't make him a great center. Relative to others Carter is below average. That's not an indictment of his talents but he doesn't really measure up to the other players on that list.

As for Marleau, he has played double duty. Mostly at wing. I confess I haven't watched a whole lot of Sharks games but he certainly fills the role of center. Zetterberg has played a lot on the wing as well but he's also capable of being a top center. If either of these guys were on our team, that's where we'd play them. If you want to remove Marleau from the list that's fine too, but I still wouldn't move Carter up to that class of player.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-01-2012 at 11:26 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 10:06 PM
  #140
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,891
vCash: 500
You really make it sound like you think that scoring 30+ goals -- especially on a regular basis -- is not really all that much, as if "low 30s" was some relatively common achievement fit for second-rate stars (also I'm not sure how 36 is "low 30s"). You may want to double-check typical goal-scoring numbers at the top of the league.

And it's not like Carter had 30 goals in a single especially good season. Like I said -- top 15 three years running. I've not done the math, but I doubt there's much more than five guys in the whole league who've accumulated more goals over that period, and if I had to bet I'd take the under.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 10:22 PM
  #141
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
I've responded to you before on this same subject. Your logic makes sense to me -- I'd love that franchise player, and the draft is the only way to get him. Problem is I don't think it'll work out. We're nowhere near bad enough to land a top-three or four pick by ourselves, and I doubt we have the resources to tempt some team into giving up theirs. Plus, prime UFAs likely won't come here. We're stuck in purgatory.

If that's the case, our only option is to assemble two strong second lines. No stars, perhaps, but two solid scoring lines. We were SUPPOSED to have that this year with Cammy and Gionta, but it didn't work out for them, for different reasons. Yeah, I'd prefer nurturing a 40 to 50 goal scorer, but I think we'd succeed as well with two more 25-goal scorers. Right now, we have a good second line. Create another line that could match them and we may actually have a team that can score when needed. Carter has the talent to fit that bill, even with his limits. Would he be a good fit here? Who knows, but I wouldn't close the door to that caliber of player. He may not be a franchise player, but he's better than mediocre. Does that mean I'm giving up on having a real number-one line? Yes, I guess I am. Partly because of the positioning of our franchise, and partly because our management is notoriously risk-averse. Does that also mean I'm giving up on winning? No. There's never only one formula for assembling a winner. We may still get there, just not in the way you and I envision.
Here's my reply to the rest of your post.

I get what you're saying. It's hard to get a superstar. You're absolutely right it is. But we have got to start drafting higher. We can trade up, we can trade away vets and start slipping in the standings but one way or another we've got to put more of a focus on elite young talent. Maybe we don't land a superstar. But we've got to do better than what we've had. Even a Kirk Muller type guy would be awesome.

If everything goes right and Subban, Price and MaxPac turn into elite talents, imagine how much better we'd be with ANOTHER elite talent to go along with them. And if one or none of those guys pan out to be the player we hope, then at least we'll have some more coming up. Going after a guy like Carter is giving up. Once we get him, it then becomes trying to win it now with another below average center leading the way. We should NOT do this. Moreover, we're then stuck with him for ten years.

We can't just give into mediocrity and hope to get lucky. We've done this for years and it's gotten us nowhere. We've got to do everything we can to try to build a winner. No it won't be easy but it's certainly not impossible. Other teams have done it, we can too.

Luck isn't something you can plan for. It shouldn't be part of our strategy because we can just as easily experience bad luck too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
It doesn't matter, really. I think you're confusing N.1 centers with franchise players. Not many teams have the opportunity to have a Crosby, Stamkos, Sedin, Malkin or Tavares on their team.
I don't think I'm confusing anything here. I just listed the top 30 or so centers in the league to demonstrate what we're up against if we want to win a cup. All I can do is compare the centers that are out there man. Ryan Kesler isn't a franchise centerman but he's about average. I'm just giving a rough ranking of where I see how other teams shake out. Again, you can disagree with me... the rankings aren't set in stone. I have no problem if you want to put Kopitar higher or lower for example, that wasn't the point of the exercise.

What do you notice when we do this? The 15th best center is going to be a guy like Kopitar, Spezza or Kesler. That's what an average 1st line center looks like man. 10-18 other centers will be better than him depending on how generous you want to be. Kopitar may be higher or lower but there's going to be at least 10 centers that are better than him right now.

We don't have anywhere close to that kind of talent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
Plekanec might not be a dominant N.1 center, but strictly number wise, without even considering what he brings defensively, he is, theoretically, a N.1 center.
He's our number one center. But on most teams he wouldn't be. Stajan was a number one center for the Leafs a couple of years ago. That doesn't mean he was a good one.

Guy Carbonneau was our best center for a long time. Great player and could shut the other team's top pivot down quite often. Still, there's no way I'd want him over a Peter Stastny or Dale Hawerchuk. It's all relative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
Would the Habs be a better team with a legit N.1 center, by your definition? Of course. But as per your definition, they are an extremely rare breed. We might grab one in this upcoming draft, though.
How rare are they? 15-20 other teams have one. Sure Crosby is at the top of the heap but this list isn't just made up of Crosbys.

It's all RELATIVE man. We look at Pleks and think, sure he's a number one. But when you look at him comparatively to what other clubs have then it really becomes apparent at how disadvantaged we are at this position. He's not as good as Kesler or Kopitar. He's not even as good as Lecavalier.

I really, really like Pleks. He's done a great job for us over the years and for the most part exceeded expectations. But he's not in the same class as what most other teams have. And in more than half the teams in the league he's nowhere freakin' close to being as good as what's out there. Even a lot of the below average centers out there are better than what we have. That puts us at a serious disadvantage in trying to win a cup man.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-01-2012 at 10:34 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 10:27 PM
  #142
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You really make it sound like you think that scoring 30+ goals -- especially on a regular basis -- is not really all that much, as if "low 30s" was some relatively common achievement fit for second-rate stars (also I'm not sure how 36 is "low 30s"). You may want to double-check typical goal-scoring numbers at the top of the league.

And it's not like Carter had 30 goals in a single especially good season. Like I said -- top 15 three years running. I've not done the math, but I doubt there's much more than five guys in the whole league who've accumulated more goals over that period, and if I had to bet I'd take the under.
Again, I ask you to compare Carter to the other players on that list. Who does he knock out? Getzlaf maybe? That's about it.

I'm not saying that 30 goals is no big deal. It's great that he can put up those kinds of numbers and I love goal scorers. But he's not as good as those other centers are. Lecavalier and Staal (two other guys who regularly score 30 goals) are better and even they are on the bottom half of the scale.

Seriously, who would you take Carter over in the list above him?

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 10:45 PM
  #143
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,852
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
It is from your list but I just had another thought: Has Pahlsson lost a step?
I don't think so. Maybe CLB fans will say otherwise but that whole team isn't doing well. It's a 4th line center anyway, not much to lose IMO. I think white and moen bring toughness and have a specific role, pahlsson would too.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 10:50 PM
  #144
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,725
vCash: 1707
carter is nice and all, but he needs a playmaking winger (or at least someone that can pass the puck well). replacing plek with carter is filling a hole and creating 2 more.

maybe dd can be winger for carter, but then who's our 2nd/3rd center? carter is not a solution as far as i am concerned.

if we suck hard enough to be able to draft grigs, a guy who could very reasonably hold a spot in the lineup next year, then ya, ship off plek for carter and be done with it.

meh, im rambling, but you get the idea...

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 11:06 PM
  #145
WG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think we're in line for a top four pick as we speak. And Anaheim IS going to pass us. If we dealt away a guy like Pleks, we'd probably sink further plus we'd get the return in that trade.

This is a lost season anyway (just as it was when we should've dealt away Souray) so we might as well use it to do the rebuild we've been putting off forever. I'll respond to the rest of this later.
Agreed. Montreal picks 5th right now, and could very well slip to 2-3 on their own merits. If not, and they do end up with a pick in the 5-6-7 range, Edmonton is looking pretty good for #2. They have already added Hall, Eberle, RNH in the last couple of years so maybe they could afford to bypass a top forward, move down off Grigerenko and take a defenseman at 5.

So, what'll it take to trade up from 5 to 2? Say Montreal gets a couple of 2nd rounders trading Moen et al. Is #5 overall plus #35 plus #50 or thereabouts enough to move up? Or would it be #5 overall plus 2013 1st? #5 plus prospect?

And if getting Griegerenko is the homerun (i.e. he's clearly better then the next tier of forwards that might be available at 5-6-7) would you do it?

Thing is, you might be able to get to that #2 pick and not lose Pleks in the process.

WG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 11:52 PM
  #146
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
They are not really in a great position to bargain and ask for too much as suter is UFA unless they could guarantee he signs then the trade is made but he already said he won't sign till after the season which tells me he is ready to test the market. Pretty tough for the Preds to demand too much for him in that situation. I mean really they take a deal like that or watch him walk away for nothing which do you prefer as a GM some return or nothing at all?
Nashville are trying to win a Stanley Cup. Thus they certainly won't be moving one of their best players for whatever they can get. They'll try to do as best they can in the post season and then try to persuade Suter of the clubs future ambitions. Moving Suter now would basically be a admission that they are going nowhere and would directly impact on being able to persuade Weber to sign long term. That's all far more relevant than getting 'some return rather than nothing' for a pending UFA.

The other side of the argument is that if you believe Suter wants to test the market, why are you giving up tangible assets (Tinordi and the pick, not Gill and Darche...) for a rental when Montreal is not in a position to contend for anything?

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2012, 11:54 PM
  #147
29dryden29
Registered User
 
29dryden29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,646
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
Nashville are trying to win a Stanley Cup. Thus they certainly won't be moving one of their best players for whatever they can get. They'll try to do as best they can in the post season and then try to persuade Suter of the clubs future ambitions. Moving Suter now would basically be a admission that they are going nowhere and would directly impact on being able to persuade Weber to sign long term. That's all far more relevant than getting 'some return rather than nothing' for a pending UFA.

The other side of the argument is that if you believe Suter wants to test the market, why are you giving up tangible assets (Tinordi and the pick, not Gill and Darche...) for a rental when Montreal is not in a position to contend for anything?
The pick I see us getting back in some other deals Tinordi honestly seeing him play here in London doesn't strike me as being much more than a bottom 2 pairing D man.

29dryden29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:05 AM
  #148
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
The pick I see us getting back in some other deals Tinordi honestly seeing him play here in London doesn't strike me as being much more than a bottom 2 pairing D man.
So, given that, if Suter actuaally were available, do you not think there would be contending teams out there offering more than a current borderline bottom pairing defenseman, a future bottom pairing defenseman, an ahl player and a pick that could easily be picked up in another deal?

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:08 AM
  #149
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,696
vCash: 13357
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Plekanec pacioretty and subban to START. Hmmm. I realize Kesler is important but he's like mike Richards, who did not get that return himself. I agree with you that it's generously optimistic to pry him from vancouver. However, I think it's very pessismtic to suggest such a package wouldn't garner their interest over the summer.
You'd be surprised, believe me. His value is insanely high, especially after last season. Meanwhile, Subban's has dropped and Plekanec is a sizable downgrade by comparison. Pacioretty would be a great addition... to play with Kesler, which evidently wouldn't be the case. Keep in mind, most Vancouver fans turned down Perry and management is adamant in citing him one of their elite. Perhaps, "To start" is too harsh but the point remains, acquiring Kesler would do more harm than good due to the assets. Why I say they might refuse even this is more to do with Vancouver just completely uninterested in moving Kesler.

How Hodgson develops and Vancouver's playoff performances will largely dictate if Kesler ever becomes available.

Bourne Endeavor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2012, 12:40 AM
  #150
FlyingKostitsyn
Registered User
 
FlyingKostitsyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Quebec
Country: Australia
Posts: 7,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I wanna expand on a small list I made yesterday:

Somewhat Realistic Targets

*list*

That's it for now but these aren't the big star names like weber, suter and parise and might be easily to acquire and would fill a role on the team IMO.
I agree with a lot of your choices. Especially Gaustad and Stuart.

Gaustad is a good defensive player (removes pressure from Plekanec) with good grit. He's also the kind of veteran who could take White and Blunden on his wing. More importantly he'd make our 4th line useful and very potent in its role.

Stuart I see as a (late) replacement for Hamrlik. Not sure he's as good as Hammer was for us at his peak but he would definitely help.

Vermette is good because of his versatility. He can play both center or wing, powerplay or penalty kill, first, second or third line... Oh and he speaks french

As for Penner I wouldn't touch him with a 20ft pole to be honest. Semin I would only consider if the deal was very generous for us. He's not exactly the kind of mentor we'd want for the russian we'll draft this summer ! (Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, whoever )

FlyingKostitsyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:42 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.