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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Are Konstantinov & Kariya HHoF Worthy?

View Poll Results: Are Konstantinov & Kariya HHoF Worthy?
They both are. 6 9.84%
Konstantinov is. 4 6.56%
Kariya is. 26 42.62%
Neither one is. 25 40.98%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-01-2012, 11:48 PM
  #1
Wrigley
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Are Konstantinov & Kariya HHoF Worthy?

Are Konstantinov & Kariya HHoF Worthy?

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Old
02-01-2012, 11:58 PM
  #2
tombombadil
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i'm surprised, even at this early stage, that the 'yes' votes are winnning. I voted yes, because i feel that they were both amazing - but i doubt many will agree that they belong.

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02-02-2012, 12:35 AM
  #3
Big Phil
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Konstantinov was 30 years old when the crash happened. When we look at his entire body of work there is no case for him to be in the HHOF. None whatsoever. The only thing you can do with him is build a projection for him. In 1996 he was a 2nd team all-star, in 1997 he won the Cup. That summer was the limo crash. Maybe with a succesful run in his 30s can he become a legitimate HHOF candidate but that's pushing it.

Kariya on the other hand has a complete body of work but a lot of warts on him for various reasons. We saw him decline so sharply that it is hard to associate him with being among the game's best for a little while. It isn't as if he has anything to fall back on either. He never won a Cup, he wasn't good in the postseason and he played a perimeter game.

If I had a vote, I'd pick neither because the more I look into it the more I disagree with Kariya.

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Old
02-02-2012, 01:34 AM
  #4
ozzie
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Once Kariya got injured he was never the same. But he had the hype and the skills to be an all-time great.

What really bugs me about Kariya is he seemed to run away from the spotlight and played in Markets that were questionable. He could have signed almost anywhere in the NHL multiple times. He had enough money for 10 life times, he signed for a pretty discount rate as it was.

Why didn't he go home to Vancouver (much as I hate them), or Detroit or Pittsburgh? why didn't he chase a Stanley cup.

Maybe I read to much into that, but he signed in some strange places. I felt he just lost heart and was almost scared of being in a big market. He just hung around like Lindros did for the end of his career.

Did he do enough pre-lockout?, because he didn't really do much after.

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02-02-2012, 01:52 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzie View Post
Once Kariya got injured he was never the same. But he had the hype and the skills to be an all-time great.

What really bugs me about Kariya is he seemed to run away from the spotlight and played in Markets that were questionable. He could have signed almost anywhere in the NHL multiple times. He had enough money for 10 life times, he signed for a pretty discount rate as it was.

Why didn't he go home to Vancouver (much as I hate them), or Detroit or Pittsburgh? why didn't he chase a Stanley cup.

Maybe I read to much into that, but he signed in some strange places. I felt he just lost heart and was almost scared of being in a big market. He just hung around like Lindros did for the end of his career.

Did he do enough pre-lockout?, because he didn't really do much after.
Kariya did sign with Colorado, along with Selanne, for a ridiculously low amount. What a backfire that was.

I personally would select someone like Kariya over recent inductions like Nieuwendyk and Ciccarreli, but I like peak/prime a lot more than career and accumulated numbers.

Konstantinov is my favorite player ever so I say screw it and induct him. He ruled!

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Old
02-02-2012, 02:00 AM
  #6
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Voted "Kariya" but I'd rather wait 5-10 years then look back at his career before doing anything hasty like inducting him right away.

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Old
02-02-2012, 05:47 AM
  #7
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Kariya - Wouldn't be the worst selection, but I would vote no.

Konstantinov - Not even close.

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Old
02-02-2012, 06:55 AM
  #8
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Would personally vote no for Kariya. Nice peak, but nothing special the rest of his career, plus he never won a cup, which is pretty much the only way a player with his resume can get in. But as the some one else mentioned, he wouldn't be the worst selection they've made.

Konstaninov doesn't stand a chance IMO. Hell, it took the hall 15 years to get it right with Howe a much better d-man and they still haven't put in JC Tremblay.

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Old
02-02-2012, 07:05 AM
  #9
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(3) 1st Team All-Star selections
(2) 2nd Team All-Star selections

There isn't a single player in NHL history with FIVE post-season All-Star Team selections that ISN'T enshrined in the HHOF or a lock to be.

Yes, Paul Kariya absolutely should be inducted into the Hockey Hall Of Fame.

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Old
02-02-2012, 12:22 PM
  #10
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John LeClair was a five-time all-star. Five straight years, which, depending on who you're talking to, is even more impressive. I don't think LeClair will make the cut for the HHOF.

I wouldn't vote for Kariya. He's one of those guys who's too much of a hit or miss case. His best was magnificent. He was the total offensive weapon. He had everything you'd ever want in a dominant offensive player. He could take over a game with his goal-scoring ability and his playmaking ability. And his linemate was Teemu Selanne.

But he was a guy who often left me wanting more. He had the ability to be a perennial 40-goal, 100-point player. In the seasons in which he played at least 60 games, he scored at a 40-goal clip four times (and hit 40 goals three times). He hit 100 points twice, and scored at that clip one other time. And there wasn't enough in his game to compensate when he wasn't scoring. He didn't hit. He wasn't strong defensively. Yes, injuries hampered his effectiveness.

If the circumstances for the HHOF were different, he'd have a better chance. If it was a media-voted HHOF, that would boost Kariya's chances. But it's not. And you only need five people on the HHOF committee to vote against a guy to dash his chances. The small size of the HHOF committee has probably allowed some guys to get in. (Clarke Gillies, for example). But it has also made it more difficult for some polarizing players, guys like Bure, Lindros, and soon, Kariya.

As for Konstantinov: he played five-and-a-half seasons in the show. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done north of 30, since he didn't come to the NHL until he was 24. He hadn't played as much hockey as other guys who were 30, and had two trips to the final on their resume.

What we saw for him was incredible. He was one of the best defencemen in the game in the two years before the accident. Was he dirty? Absolutely. He was probably one of the least-liked players in the game. But he was a ferocious competitor, a very difficult player to play against, and a premier defensive defenceman who played much bigger than his size. But unless you're talking about a guy who was the best player in the game for an extended period of time, or the best player at his position for several years, you're not getting in the HHOF with five-and-a-half years in the NHL.

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Old
02-02-2012, 12:27 PM
  #11
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Yes, for Kariya. One of the best players in the world at his prime.

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Old
02-02-2012, 12:32 PM
  #12
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Konstantinov- No way, his career was to short.
Kariya- Maybe

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Old
02-02-2012, 02:44 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
John LeClair was a five-time all-star. Five straight years, which, depending on who you're talking to, is even more impressive. I don't think LeClair will make the cut for the HHOF.

I wouldn't vote for Kariya. He's one of those guys who's too much of a hit or miss case. His best was magnificent. He was the total offensive weapon. He had everything you'd ever want in a dominant offensive player. He could take over a game with his goal-scoring ability and his playmaking ability. And his linemate was Teemu Selanne.

But he was a guy who often left me wanting more. He had the ability to be a perennial 40-goal, 100-point player. In the seasons in which he played at least 60 games, he scored at a 40-goal clip four times (and hit 40 goals three times). He hit 100 points twice, and scored at that clip one other time. And there wasn't enough in his game to compensate when he wasn't scoring. He didn't hit. He wasn't strong defensively. Yes, injuries hampered his effectiveness.

If the circumstances for the HHOF were different, he'd have a better chance. If it was a media-voted HHOF, that would boost Kariya's chances. But it's not. And you only need five people on the HHOF committee to vote against a guy to dash his chances. The small size of the HHOF committee has probably allowed some guys to get in. (Clarke Gillies, for example). But it has also made it more difficult for some polarizing players, guys like Bure, Lindros, and soon, Kariya.

As for Konstantinov: he played five-and-a-half seasons in the show. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done north of 30, since he didn't come to the NHL until he was 24. He hadn't played as much hockey as other guys who were 30, and had two trips to the final on their resume.

What we saw for him was incredible. He was one of the best defencemen in the game in the two years before the accident. Was he dirty? Absolutely. He was probably one of the least-liked players in the game. But he was a ferocious competitor, a very difficult player to play against, and a premier defensive defenceman who played much bigger than his size. But unless you're talking about a guy who was the best player in the game for an extended period of time, or the best player at his position for several years, you're not getting in the HHOF with five-and-a-half years in the NHL.
Kariya
(2) 100-Pt. seasons
(1) 50-goal seasons
(2) Lady Byngs
(1) Olympic Gold
(3) 1st Team All-Star selections
(2) 2nd Team All-Star selections
1.00 career PPG (989 GP - 989 PTS)

Leclair
(0) 100-Pt. seasons
(3) 50-goal seasons
(0) hardware
(1) Olympic Silver
(2) 1st Team All-Star selections
(3) 2nd Team All-Star selections
0.85 career PPG (967 GP - 819 PTS)

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Old
02-02-2012, 03:16 PM
  #14
God Bless Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Kariya
(2) 100-Pt. seasons
(1) 50-goal seasons
(2) Lady Byngs
(1) Olympic Gold
(3) 1st Team All-Star selections
(2) 2nd Team All-Star selections
1.00 career PPG (989 GP - 989 PTS)

Leclair
(0) 100-Pt. seasons
(3) 50-goal seasons
(0) hardware
(1) Olympic Silver
(2) 1st Team All-Star selections
(3) 2nd Team All-Star selections
0.85 career PPG (967 GP - 819 PTS)
Thank you for pointing things out that we all already knew. Your argument was that Kariya was a legit five-time all-star. And I pointed out that LeClair was a five-time all-star, and is far from a lock.

You didn't nothing to counter my claim that:
a) In many seasons, Kariya left you wanting more;
b) His career really was hit-or-miss; or
c) His somewhat polarizing status will make it difficult for him to get into the HHOF, since it only takes five people on a committee of 18 to keep a player out. And I can assure you, there are a lot of people in the game who wouldn't support Kariya's induction.

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02-02-2012, 03:51 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Kariya
(2) 100-Pt. seasons
(1) 50-goal seasons
(2) Lady Byngs
(1) Olympic Gold
(3) 1st Team All-Star selections
(2) 2nd Team All-Star selections
1.00 career PPG (989 GP - 989 PTS)

Leclair
(0) 100-Pt. seasons
(3) 50-goal seasons
(0) hardware
(1) Olympic Silver
(2) 1st Team All-Star selections
(3) 2nd Team All-Star selections
0.85 career PPG (967 GP - 819 PTS)
Pretty one-sided comparison here. If you're going to include things like Olympic Gold Medals, you should probably include John LeClair's 1-0 advantage in Staey Cups. I would also include the fact that he won Gold at the 1996 World Cup and was selected an All Star for the tournament.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-02-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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Old
02-02-2012, 04:22 PM
  #16
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
a) In many seasons, Kariya left you wanting more;
b) His career really was hit-or-miss; or
c) His somewhat polarizing status will make it difficult for him to get into the HHOF, since it only takes five people on a committee of 18 to keep a player out. And I can assure you, there are a lot of people in the game who wouldn't support Kariya's induction.
Basically we are looking at a guy who never had a great season after 28 years old and even in the 25-28 years range he was declining, believe it or not. You never thought in 2002 you were witnessing a 1997 Kariya anymore. He just aged so terribly. Being left off the 2004 World Cup team kind of sent the message of "you aren't important anymore". And to be honest, he really wasn't, and never was again. Which is a shame because he had all the tools to be an all-time great, I mean an ALL-TIME great. Kariya is a guy we should be comparing to Selanne at the very least right now, but he isn't.

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Old
02-02-2012, 08:32 PM
  #17
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I say yes for Kariya, no for Vlad. Kariya was one of the best scorers in a time the league needed scoring. He was a part of one of the most exciting duo the league has seen, and IMO Kariya was the better of the two.

He is without a ring, but he does have a gold and silver Olympic medal. I think he had like three or four points in his first playoff game. He also scored a pretty important OT goal vs Phoenix in his first playoff series. His playoff performances did not stand out after the Phoenix series because he didn`t get many opportunities to play in the post season. He didn`t do much vs New Jersey, but other than Gigs, not many Ducks did in that series. He did do pretty well vs the Wings that year, and played an important role in eliminating them.

I believe both he and Bure deserve in the Hall.

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Old
02-02-2012, 09:16 PM
  #18
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I think Kariya will get in. He was one half of one of the most exciting duos in hockey history. He did peak almost as high as Teemu who people see as a first ballot hall of famer.

Konstantinov won't make it to the hall.

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Old
02-02-2012, 10:30 PM
  #19
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Not to derail the thread, but would John LeClair really be that bad of a choice for the HOF, especially considering recent inductees (e.g. Dino, Neely, Nieuwendyk, etc.)? I know no one here likes the argument "Person A got in, Person B was better, so Person B should get in," but I always thought that LeClair had a very solid body of work that was comparable to a bunch of HOFers.

I guess the main argument is that he was a secondary player (always behind Lindros, and guys like Primeau/Gagne/Roenick/Recchi towards the end of his career). But a bunch of those types of players have been inducted (again, Dino, Nieuwendyk).

Either way, back on topic, personally I'm on the fence with Kariya, but I acknowledge that if I had it my way, the HOF would be very stingy. I think he should get in at some point, though his lack of playoff success will probably hurt him.

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02-02-2012, 11:03 PM
  #20
Jesus Vitale
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i accidentally voted both, but i only meant to pick Kariya.

He was one of the best in the game for like 5 years and still finished as a PPG player after all of his injuries. would've gotten to 1000 points if he was able to play 1 more season or if he played a couple more of the games he missed.

Could've gotten to 500 goals too.

a player can't get into the HHOF JUST because of what "could have been if...", but i think it counts for something at a certain point, and imo Kariya reached that point.

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Old
02-04-2012, 01:54 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Not to derail the thread, but would John LeClair really be that bad of a choice for the HOF, especially considering recent inductees (e.g. Dino, Neely, Nieuwendyk, etc.)? I know no one here likes the argument "Person A got in, Person B was better, so Person B should get in," but I always thought that LeClair had a very solid body of work that was comparable to a bunch of HOFers.

I guess the main argument is that he was a secondary player (always behind Lindros, and guys like Primeau/Gagne/Roenick/Recchi towards the end of his career). But a bunch of those types of players have been inducted (again, Dino, Nieuwendyk).

Either way, back on topic, personally I'm on the fence with Kariya, but I acknowledge that if I had it my way, the HOF would be very stingy. I think he should get in at some point, though his lack of playoff success will probably hurt him.
Leclair has a case with a pretty good peak and good intangibles and some other international performances but his peak is really Lindros aided.

It would be very interesting to see how John did in games when Eric was injured though.

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02-04-2012, 02:46 PM
  #22
Big Phil
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Leclair has a case with a pretty good peak and good intangibles and some other international performances but his peak is really Lindros aided.

It would be very interesting to see how John did in games when Eric was injured though.
Still pretty good, he carried the Flyers in 1996-'97 and 1997-'98 when Lindros missed significant time. But his career numbers are just ugly. We remember him as a guy who scored 50 three straight years, but he barely cracks 400 goals (402). Just simply not good enough for long enough. Was a late bloomer coupled with a guy who did nothing in his 30s. Yeah Nieuwendyk is an awful pick, but when we have to compare a guy to other rotten picks already in there, the answer is as clear as day if he belongs.

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02-04-2012, 02:51 PM
  #23
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No and No.

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02-04-2012, 03:09 PM
  #24
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If Kariya didn't have the continual injury problems - particularly due to concussions I think he would be an easy selection but as it stands I don't think that he has what it takes, if he had 100-200 more points and a couple more really good years then I think it would be a no-brainer.

Speaking of Kariya it amazes me in retrospect that Suter only got a four game suspension for a cross-check to the head that knocked an elite player out for the rest of the season and derailed their career in a number of ways and that was viewed as a harsh suspension... how times have changed.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...er-paul-kariya
Quote:
"Any other guy, I don't think it would get reviewed," Tony Amonte said. "(Suter's) stick did get up a little high, but Paul's a bit of a fragile player. He doesn't play with as much pain as a lot of other guys do. I don't know when he'll play again, but I'm sure he'll be right back in the lineup. I've seen many guys play with a mild concussion."

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Old
02-04-2012, 03:37 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Leclair has a case with a pretty good peak and good intangibles and some other international performances but his peak is really Lindros aided.

It would be very interesting to see how John did in games when Eric was injured though.
I've posted those numbers a couple of times. Don't have them at hand, but IIRC Leclair maintained his scoring pace in the games Lindros missed. His plus-minus dropped a bit, but that's not surprising when you go from two star forwards on a line to one.

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