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Phoenix XLIII: How to Bake Cupcakes in Less Than Two Weeks
I deal in facts. My interest is not in assertions, it is in items which can be proved. Did you have some evidence to submit that would validate your claim of Coyotes Newco LLC misappropriating funds? Or are you just barking this loud because nobody hit you with a rolled up newspaper yet?
I consider this dishonest, and I've explained why. So to answer for you, what's so 'tremendous' that the Coyotes have done? They've asked you to give them money. Nothing wrong with that, except for HOW they do it, as I've outlined my opinion.
Is there misappropriation by Newco LLC? No. And I never claimed that (Blues10 may have). I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think what they're doing is illegal. But that doesn't make it right.
Either you don't think they're exploiting peoples' goodwill (please explain why I'm wrong) or you are okay with them exploiting peoples' goodwill (your opinion, that's fine), or avoid it all together and just call people names.
I consider this dishonest, and I've explained why. So to answer for you, what's so 'tremendous' that the Coyotes have done? They've asked you to give them money. Nothing wrong with that, except for HOW they do it, as I've outlined my opinion.
Is there misappropriation by Newco LLC? No. And I never claimed that (Blues10 may have). I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think what they're doing is illegal. But that doesn't make it right.
Either you don't think they're exploiting peoples' goodwill (please explain why I'm wrong) or you are okay with them exploiting peoples' goodwill (your opinion, that's fine), or avoid it all together and just call people names.
Say this program didn't exist. How would it even occur to me to buy a ticket for a vet? How would i go about doing it even if I had thought about it? I go to tickemaster, buy a ticket and then what do I do with it? How do i get it to a vet? This program plants the seed in people's mind to do something nice for a service person. It then makes it convenient to give.
Let's explore your response so we can determine exactly where you stand, both philosophically and factually. Keep in mind that these are your words; I'm only clarifying their meaning:
You "consider" the offer "dishonest", yet you cannot provide even one instance of a 501-505 violation. You have no factual understanding of how the funds are appropriated, you just "consider" it to be "dishonest". The entire world should admonish the Coyotes ticket program simply because in your astute observation it is exploiting goodwill. But then you hedge your position by stating that you are not an attorney and that you are not claiming any misappropriation of funds. Yet you still say that what the Coyotes are doing is "not right". Once again, you make this claim without any evidence or investigation.
Your statements are meritless accusations at best. You suggest that the NHL and the Coyotes are committing felony embezzlement, defrauding a charitable donation, in order to gain a few thousand dollars in gate revenue. Here's my retort:
mod
I see how we are disconnected now: You were expecting a legal argument, which I never even attempted to make. I never used the words 'felony', 'embezzlement,' defrauding'. As someone who claimed to be analyzing my post 'philosophically,' you seem to lack critical thinking skills. I was making a moral argument. Just because something is legal doesn't mean I have to agree with it (and you don't have to agree with my moral argument. I mean, it's a moral argument). If you find your morals in the law, so be it. But don't start throwing insults when someone steps out of your legalistic worldview.
Last edited by Chairman Maouth: 02-19-2012 at 08:14 PM.
Say this program didn't exist. How would it even occur to me to buy a ticket for a vet? How would i go about doing it even if I had thought about it? I go to tickemaster, buy a ticket and then what do I do with it? How do i get it to a vet? This program plants the seed in people's mind to do something nice for a service person. It then makes it convenient to give.
You can't find a vet? They are fairly organized. You could start your own non-profit organization to do this. Or do whatever you want, this isn't really my point.
You can't find a vet? They are fairly organized. You could start your own non-profit organization to do this. Or do whatever you want, this isn't really my point.
I'm all for moving the Coyotes, but giving seats to vets is not a bad thing. Even if the NHL is the only real money maker from it.
It's basically someone paying for their seats and giving them to veterans, nothing wrong with this?
I have to take some responsibility for this thread getting knocked off course. I apologize for that.
I originally wanted to address the post regarding a Marine tweeting about getting a bunch of free tickets and how things always seem to get blown out of proportion here because of some contextual gamesmanship.
Seems like that point has now been proven.... in spades.
That implies fraudulent behavior no matter how much you want to dance around it.
And no I'm not being philosophical.... those are your own words.
If 'scam' is a legal term I was unaware and didn't mean it that way. My mistake.
And philosophical was CF's term.
I don't think exploitation implies illegal. People are exploited all the time by telemarketers, trying to take advantage of people who can't say 'no'. I wish telemarketing were illegal ...
I can see now that if someone thought I was trying to make a legal argument it can be read that way. It's my fault for not being clearer at the beginning.
Guys, move it along. This is derailing the thread, even though there's not much news about a "sale" of the team or anything related to its ownership and location going forward.
btw..I fully support the "Support Our Troops campaign" These folks have all more than earned Free Tickets
Explains the Alice Cooper bobblehead night. Eventually every Coyotes fan will get their own. I'm waiting for the Scottrocks and TheLegend bobblehead nights... Oh, and the Krux bobblehead night, but only so I can do unspeakable things to it...
Hamilton? C'mon! Should be the new team slogan going forward.
Really? I didn't realize that Hamilton was back in the running. Perhaps there is a possibility that Alice has rubbed shoulders with some people in the know. I would be surprised if Hamilton was a possible relocation destination.
[QUOTE]
Quote:
"We need to be a four-sport city, and it's the only sport that I constantly go to," Cooper said. "I go to a couple of baseball and basketball games and maybe one football game a year, but I go to a lot of hockey games so I don't want to see it move. It's too good a franchise to leave. And go to Hamilton (Ontario)? Come on."[/QUOTE]
Really? I didn't realize that Hamilton was back in the running. Perhaps there is a possibility that Alice has rubbed shoulders with some people in the know. I would be surprised if Hamilton was a possible relocation destination.
As Killion has been suggesting, it would make a lot of sense for someone to buy the team and assume the current lease, which provides basically free rent and no strings attached after each season. If the NHL sells to a new owner, that owner could try to work out a lease agreement with the COG, and if it doesn't work out, walk away and either sell or relocate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee
For one, it puts the ball firmly in Glendales court...
By the way, is Beasley even around Glendale? If not him, who would be negotiating on a lease for Glendale? Mayor Scruggs and city councilors certainly don't give the impression that there are any lease negotiations going on with any prospective owners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk
People are assuming the lease is transferable.....It may not be and I would guess it isn't in that they are always talking about the new owner would need to work out a lease with Glendale.
The AMUL signed last May between the NHL & the COG is fully transferable, which just beggars the question as to why hasnt the NHL facilitated a sale & provided a price drop with terms to Reinsdorf, Jamison or the Man on the Moon, shucked themselves of this embarrassment?. The incoming owner wields the hammer with Glendale (as per Whileee's posts above & something Ive been harping on for months), can Cap his Consent Form with the league & apply losses to a relo fee (if the league decides to get cheeky). Give it a shot for at least 2-3yrs. Look at Nashville, Florida; San Jose... watch what Gaglardi does in Dallas to showup Hicks fror the spendthrift Looney Toon that he is. This isnt Rocket Science and you dont even need a Degree, a High School Diploma to pull it off.... just savvy, street smarts and a bucket full of cash.
This from LeftCoast who knows what he's talking about....
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoast
The NHL's preference is still for a buyer willing to at least commit to Glendale for 2 or 3 years under the existing year to year lease and see if a long term viable arrangement can be worked out with Glendale.
However, what I think the NHL might find (and I think this is the Jamieson option) is an owner who is willing to keep the team in Glendale on a year by year basis, knowing that it is not going to work long term. However it gives the NHL the "victory" of finding a "local" owner and allows the new owner time to put together a relocation plan.
There is uncertainty with the NHL CBA. A lockout could work in favour of an owner who wants to buy the team and relocate as without a binding lease in Glendale and no payroll costs during the lockout, the losses would be minimal and the owner would have time to ready a temporary venue in a new location.
Bingo!.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFan
At the risk of sounding like GSC2k2, you have to roll your eyes at the complete lack of understanding about the deal. Only someone with zero comprehension of the dynamics of the Coyotes sale would think "NHL approves Jamison" is even a story. I guess that's why I'm not on Twitter. I can do without the meaningless reports from misinformed "sources".
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevyD
Where is Killion?The thread is not the same without him and he has not posted in days.
Ahh, thanks Kevy... In transit, busy with "my life" stuff. Paying the Piper, the Drummer, the whole Moth___ing Orchestra, Rental on the building... on & on & on. Id complain, but APPARENTLY no one CARES!...
just finished reading the last 4-5 pages....
1) Twitters & Tweets are Verboten as "Sources" here on hf. 2) I applaud the Coyotes support of the Troops with the ticket program. 3) Putting any trust in the NHL's "Ownership Approval" process is folly.
Last edited by Fugu: 02-20-2012 at 01:23 PM.
Reason: per the blue meanies, that's now verboten too; welcome back
The NHL hasn't brokered a deal with anyone because they haven't found a sucker willing to for over 200 million for a team that is actually worth about 60 million yet. Suckers are in short supply these days given the US economy.
Chris Daniels @ChrisDaniels5
Also heard from someone w/#Coyotes franchise that they've heard rumors for two weeks...and seems like something may be up.
Unintentionally hilarious line in a tweet by Seattle NBC reporter Chris Daniels, who has (as far as I know) only been following this saga since the Seattle Arena news broke.
The AMUL signed last May between the NHL & the COG is fully transferable, which just beggars the question as to why hasnt the NHL facilitated a sale & provided a price drop with terms to Reinsdorf, Jamison or the Man on the Moon, shucked themselves of this embarrassment?. The incoming owner wields the hammer with Glendale (as per Whileee's posts above & something Ive been harping on for months), can Cap his Consent Form with the league & apply losses to a relo fee (if the league decides to get cheeky). Give it a shot for at least 2-3yrs. Look at Nashville, Florida; San Jose... watch what Gaglardi does in Dallas to showup Hicks fror the spendthrift Looney Toon that he is. This isnt Rocket Science and you dont even need a Degree, a High School Diploma to pull it off.... just savvy, street smarts and a bucket full of cash.
This from LeftCoast who knows what he's talking about....
Bingo!.
Ahh, thanks Kevy... In transit, busy with "my life" stuff. Paying the Piper, the Drummer, the whole Moth___ing Orchestra, Rental on the building... on & on & on. Id complain, but APPARENTLY no one CARES!...
just finished reading the last 4-5 pages....
1) Twitters & Tweets are Verboten as "Sources" here on hf. 2) I applaud the Coyotes support of the Troops with the ticket program. 3) Putting any trust in the NHL's "Ownership Approval" process is folly.
Welcome back, Killion. The key to the "Sell Now Locally (SNL)" strategy is for the NHL to lower the selling price. That would give the City of Glendale some wiggle room in their lease negotiations and give the NHL some leverage with a new owner to compel them to give it an honest effort in Glendale. Either the NHL has encountered a rather obstinate group on the BOG who are demanding full recompense for the Coyotes adventure, or the NHL has something else up their sleeve.
The AMUL signed last May between the NHL & the COG is fully transferable, which just beggars the question as to why hasnt the NHL facilitated a sale & provided a price drop with terms to Reinsdorf, Jamison or the Man on the Moon, shucked themselves of this embarrassment?. The incoming owner wields the hammer with Glendale (as per Whileee's posts above & something Ive been harping on for months), can Cap his Consent Form with the league & apply losses to a relo fee (if the league decides to get cheeky). Give it a shot for at least 2-3yrs. Look at Nashville, Florida; San Jose... watch what Gaglardi does in Dallas to showup Hicks fror the spendthrift Looney Toon that he is. This isnt Rocket Science and you dont even need a Degree, a High School Diploma to pull it off.... just savvy, street smarts and a bucket full of cash.
And IMO there in lies the bigger problem, and I have said this before. It's one thing for the Coyotes to get an new owner and everyone rejoices, but if the paying public gets one sniff that this is temporary... it's over before it starts.
The only way this works is if the new owner comes in all guns a-blazing and tells everyone and convinces everyone they are in it for the long haul. Any thing less and it doesn't work. Because after all that has gone on over the last 3 years with all the ups and downs, I just can't see enough people buying STs if the owner comes in and says " let's see how it goes over the next couple of years ".
And IMO there in lies the bigger problem, and I have said this before. It's one thing for the Coyotes to get an new owner and everyone rejoices, but if the paying public gets one sniff that this is temporary... it's over before it starts.
The only way this works is if the new owner comes in all guns a-blazing and tells everyone and convinces everyone they are in it for the long haul. Any thing less and it doesn't work.
That's not realistic.
Given the history of the franchise's struggles in Phoenix / Glendale, only a fool would commit long term to a new lease with the COG without an out clause. The best realistic outcome for Glendale is a 10-20 year lease with an out clause within the first 3-5 years.
In 15 years, under Colangelo/Gluckstern/Burke, Ellman/Gretzky, Ellman/Moyes, Moyes and now the NHL, the team has never broken even. The market has chronic poor attendance, low ticket prices and virtually non-existent TV ratings for hockey. Some of this is undoubtedly due to the 3+ year saga since Moyes ran out of money. But the Coyotes have never been a great draw.
Think of what a new owner, committed to Glendale faces:
Turn around a hockey operation that is losing at least $25M per year and be prepared to fund losses of that magnitude for several more years.
Actually make lease payments to the city. Currently the NHL is both the Arena Manager and owner of the team. They also have a $25M loss cap/guarantee from the City. The Coyotes are probably not making lease payments.
Inject millions more into marketing and market building. Last year the Coyotes TV broadcasts reached only 9000 homes. The Phoenix Sun hit 77,000. The Pittsburgh Penguins (tops among US NHL teams) hit 105,000 homes. In the first round of the playoffs however the Coyotes hit 65,000 homes, so there is hope, but the market has to be built.
In the face of soft demand, increase ticket prices. Something that is difficult to do once they are lowered.
With all of that uncertainty, any prospective owner is going to want an out-clause in the first 3-5 years.
Sale to keep Phoenix Coyotes in Arizona close to final
Quote:
The sale would keep the team here and could help the city of Glendale possibly avoid a second $25 million to pay the NHL to run the city arena and operate the Coyotes.
I’ve learned not to get excited about ‘good news’ such as this. I will finally breathe a sigh a of relief when I hear it come from Bettman’s mouth that the deal is done and the team is staying.
Oh, and the Krux bobblehead night, but only so I can do unspeakable things to it...
