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Old
02-02-2012, 11:15 AM
  #26
Hawaiinleaf
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Thanks for grammer lessons...

Point remains Leafs minus Komi and Schenn lose there 2 biggest and most physical D....i recall Aulie playing very poorly last call up and Capt P is not that physical

So perhaps a lesson in reading my point instead of doting i's and crossing T's is in order...

its a trees for the forest thing...know what i mean smart ass..

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02-02-2012, 11:24 AM
  #27
Briecheeze
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Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
Capt P is not that physical
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sdDZunmjZ8

I'm not sure you watch Leafs games. I've read your points. They aren't great.

And defensemen don't necessarily need to be physical to be effective. Nicklas Lidstrom has made a hall-of-fame career out of playing the right angles and forcing his man to take the wrong path. Gardiner does the same thing.

Komisarek might be phyiscal, but he's certainly made his share of defensive gaffes in years past. Certainly, Aulie has had rough times this year, but so has Schenn. Again, given the cost-benefit of who to trade and given what the Leafs have on hand, trading Schenn is the most likely way to get the physical top-six forward the Leafs need.

I'm not saying that it will happen, or that it's likely to happen (who's available on the trade market that fits the bill?). I'm not trying to run Schenn out of town either - I like him. But if the Leafs want to address their needs, Schenn is the most likely trade candidate, and that's the truth.

If you're worried about having enough enforcers or protection, there's Brown, Armstrong, and Rosehill.

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02-02-2012, 11:27 AM
  #28
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The leafs are not physical oh my god!!!! were a very soft team and there is no debate on this..

physical d is not about big hits once in awhile by capt P...its about board battles for the puck, and for space in front of the net...

We do not win those for the most part....and our 2 D who do the most battling Schenn, Komi leaving leave us very exposed in an already noted weakness..

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02-02-2012, 11:28 AM
  #29
Giuseppe Sallo
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Yup. A soft team that needs more physical presence. I wouldn't mind trading Schenn if we can get a good return.

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02-02-2012, 11:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Schenn isn't that good defensively though. He's physical, but not that mean and aggressive and intimidating. He is prone to puck watching, he hits people after they've already done something with the puck, he's often out of position, he can be very ineffective clearing the puck, is prone to getting hemmed in against teams with speedy games, and his outlet passes can pretty off the mark. In summary, his hockey skills seem to be lacking, and his hockey sense kind of lags behind too. Guys like Del Zotto and Karlsson might be more offensively oriented guys by reputation, but I'm sure their ability to transition from defense to offense quickly makes them more effective defensively, this year at least. Schenn gets by often on reputation based on hype, but he's not that reliable defensively.
Skating is by far the biggest let down from Schenn, there's no disputing that. If he can cut out the offensive game that has been forced upon him and concentrate on the 'stay-at-home' factor, he will be great. Case-and-point was last night. His transitional game was never really relied upon, he was just tasked to get players to the boards, use his stick in lanes, block shots, etc., and he did a great job.

He's never going to be the end-to-end guy, clearly. These other guys were drafted because of their two-way play and that's no slight to them - they're great, young hockey players.

I just enjoy a solid defenseman. Nothing fancy, just solid. I know Luke has had his faults this season, but his potential is still very high. He just has to focus on HIS game more; HIS game being the non-offensive side.

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02-02-2012, 11:34 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
The leafs are not physical oh my god!!!! were a very soft team and there is no debate on this..

physical d is not about big hits once in awhile by capt P...its about board battles for the puck, and for space in front of the net...

We do not win those for the most part....and our 2 D who do the most battling Schenn, Komi leaving leave us very exposed in an already noted weakness..
Certainly the Leafs aren't physical - the team as it stands was built on speed in a transitional game. The book on how to beat the Leafs is to be physical and to keep close to them. It's how Boston wins consistantly against the Leafs, and it's no secret - take a look at the first episode of 24/7 if you want to see how the Rangers game-planned for the Leafs.

But the D has no help from forwards, because there are no physical board-clearing forwards to help. Look at how often someone like MacArthur (not singling him out - one of the plays last night) is pushed off the puck in the defensive zone, leading to a turnover.

If Burke trades Schenn, it's for a physical forward who helps win puck battles in both the defensive and offensive zones.

By the way, Komisarek isn't going anywhere. His contract is not movable for this year, and depending on how the CBA shakes out with the salary floor, it might not be movable for the rest of his contract (plus, he has a no-movement clause).

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02-02-2012, 11:35 AM
  #32
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Schenn didn't shut down anyone. Phaneuf shut down Malkin. Schenn didn't get blown up when Malkin found his way out against him, thats all. I am against trading Schenn but can we stop saying he "shut down" Malkin? The guy playing 25+ minutes shut down malkin. Schenn just didn't look bad once or twice, when Malkin was out there.

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02-02-2012, 11:36 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by wrightta View Post
Rumors of Luke Schenn's defensive prowess are greatly exaggerated. I like Schenn but the way people talk about his defensive play makes it sound like he's Norris quality. He makes many mistakes, mostly due to his inability to think the game and adapt to situations. He still struggles with clearing the puck (but who on our team doesn't?), boxing out forwards, tying up sticks, poor positioning, poor pinching choices, poor puck handling and poor foot speed (if he was better positionally this wouldn't be an issue and vice versa). He has a decent first pass, is physical, blocks shots and is effective when he plays a simple game. Schenn often tries to do too much and perhaps just isn't a good fit for the system Wilson employs.

Schenn has potential, but not as much as many originally thought and he's certainly not playing up to the level of someone with his raw abilities four years into his career. I expect more from Schenn and he's not delivering. IF he's needed to secure a trade for a young impact (not used synonymously here with elite) forward then so be it.
You're correct. Schenn is not living up to the hype right now and is having a mediocre season at best. That said, he's a key part of this playoff calibre team and it would be a huge risk if we traded him right now.

I just don't think we're going to trade the guy and are more likely to trade spare parts instead. I think the availability of impact #1c just isn't there and anything else but a top player won't justify moving a player of Schenn's potential.

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02-02-2012, 11:38 AM
  #34
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I just don't think we're going to trade the guy and are more likely to trade spare parts instead. I think the availability of impact #1c just isn't there and anything else but a top player won't justify moving a player of Schenn's potential.
Completely agree.

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02-02-2012, 11:39 AM
  #35
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Schenn + for JVR is something anyone of us would do.

But I don't know if JVR fits that well

Lupul - ____ - Kessel
Kulie - Grabo - MacA

Does he take MacA's spot? He's better than him, but will he produce as well as MacA, Mac is a good fit with Grabs and Kulie.

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02-02-2012, 11:40 AM
  #36
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Schenn cant skate and has stone hands. Unless he pulls off a Tavares-like improvement in skating ability he will never be an elite shutdown guy. As for stone hands, you cant teach that but as a shutdown guy i suppose that can be overlooked.

Skating though... Wow is he bad and slow. Probably bottom 10% in the league for foot speed.

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02-02-2012, 11:44 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
Schenn didn't shut down anyone. Phaneuf shut down Malkin. Schenn didn't get blown up when Malkin found his way out against him, thats all. I am against trading Schenn but can we stop saying he "shut down" Malkin? The guy playing 25+ minutes shut down malkin. Schenn just didn't look bad once or twice, when Malkin was out there.
I don't think anyone is saying this..?

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02-02-2012, 11:46 AM
  #38
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Briecheeze View Post
Schenn does not lead the league in hits. He is sixth in hits right now. Last year he was eighth.

That said, he does lead all defensemen in hits.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats




Keith Aulie - 6'6", 217 lbs
Cody Franson - 6'5", 213 lbs
Dion Phaneuf - 6'3", 213 lbs

Luke Schenn - 6'2", 229 lbs
Mike Komisarek - 6'4", 243 lbs
Carl Gunnarsson - 6'2", 196 lbs
Jake Gardiner - 6'1", 173 lbs

Luke Schenn is certainly a nice player to have, and I doubt the Leafs are actively looking to trade him. However, considering the team's strengths and weaknesses, and considering who has value around the league, Schenn is easily the most likely trade bait on the team. While Schenn certainly does ok in a shut-down role, he makes defensive lapses and, as many people around the hfboards are likely to say, turnovers. I certainly think Schenn's game will mature. However, given the depth at D, it is not a bad idea to explore trades to shore up other areas of weakness.

The D is not soft - the Leafs lack of size is mostly on the offensive end.

Grammar Lesson time!

This is called an apostrophe: ' . It is used when making contractions and possessives, such as "Last night's game" and "we're".
Also, the word is spelled "to", not "2". Finally, the word "I" should always be capitalized.

The more you know...
We...I know this. Me thinks you may be a little high on yourself.

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Old
02-02-2012, 11:48 AM
  #39
Stephen
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Skating is by far the biggest let down from Schenn, there's no disputing that. If he can cut out the offensive game that has been forced upon him and concentrate on the 'stay-at-home' factor, he will be great. Case-and-point was last night. His transitional game was never really relied upon, he was just tasked to get players to the boards, use his stick in lanes, block shots, etc., and he did a great job.

He's never going to be the end-to-end guy, clearly. These other guys were drafted because of their two-way play and that's no slight to them - they're great, young hockey players.

I just enjoy a solid defenseman. Nothing fancy, just solid. I know Luke has had his faults this season, but his potential is still very high. He just has to focus on HIS game more; HIS game being the non-offensive side.
I'm still hoping Schenn can grow his game to be a better rounded player, because common sense says a two way player is better than a one way player, but if Schenn can only be successful playing a simple, dumb defensive role and nothing else, how does he have high potential at all? Doesn't that just make him a foot soldier? Nothing wrong with that, but if some other team wants to give us a more valuable piece of the puzzle for a foot soldier, that's a no brainer, isn't it?

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02-02-2012, 11:48 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Schenn + for JVR is something anyone of us would do.

But I don't know if JVR fits that well

Lupul - ____ - Kessel
Kulie - Grabo - MacA

Does he take MacA's spot? He's better than him, but will he produce as well as MacA, Mac is a good fit with Grabs and Kulie.
I wouldn't trade Schenn for JVR at all!

Even if we did get JVR he'd be taking Crabb's spot and not Mac's for this season anyways. JVR is not healthy anyway so it's a moot point.

I dunno what the facination is with JVR. I'd rather have a healthy Schenn any day of the week than an injury riddled JVR.

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02-02-2012, 11:50 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Schenn + for JVR is something anyone of us would do.

But I don't know if JVR fits that well

Lupul - ____ - Kessel
Kulie - Grabo - MacA

Does he take MacA's spot? He's better than him, but will he produce as well as MacA, Mac is a good fit with Grabs and Kulie.
Maybe not, with with a little jiggle, you can slot JVR with Grabo and move one of Mac or Kule for assets.

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02-02-2012, 11:51 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm still hoping Schenn can grow his game to be a better rounded player, because common sense says a two way player is better than a one way player, but if Schenn can only be successful playing a simple, dumb defensive role and nothing else, how does he have high potential at all? Doesn't that just make him a foot soldier? Nothing wrong with that, but if some other team wants to give us a more valuable piece of the puzzle for a foot soldier, that's a no brainer, isn't it?
I think that's incredibly inaccurate, with all respect.

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02-02-2012, 12:00 PM
  #43
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I think that's incredibly inaccurate, with all respect.
How so? A prospect like Kadri gets ripped on for not having a better two way game and better defensive coverage. He's sent to the minors to work out the kinks to his game.

How is a top 5 pick like Schenn get a pass for being completely ineffective beyond his own blueline?

The whole notion of a shut down defenseman is an anachronism that makes me think of the Derian Hatcher/Richard Matvichuk bad old days of clutch and grab hockey. Great physical shutdown defensemen today like Nik Kronwall play at both ends of the ice and contribute to the transition game and chip in offensively. They don't stand around their own zone hoping to clear out the trash.

Schenn has shown some ability to rush the puck on occasion, but his lack of an offensive game is unacceptable if he's to be considered a cornerstone. His two costly misses against Pittsburgh were just as damaging as any Kadri turn over resulting in a goal against.

You have to contribute two ways to some extent to be a core member. Otherwise, what separates him from a throwaway like Komisarek?

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02-02-2012, 12:09 PM
  #44
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These past 2 games he's turned a corner IMO, he's looked great defensively.

I say this referring to Stephen's post, because I agree in terms of him not beign "fantastic" defensively yet. He's physical, but he's been mean, made smart plays, limited turnovers, etc.

Hopefully he keeps it up. His TOI is low though because it depends on the time of game we're in. Last night, itching for some offense, Wilson decided to play Phaneuf-Gardiner-Gunnarsson-Liles because they can be relied on for both aspects. Schenn did not have a bad game, it just wasn't wise to use him in a game thats 0-0.

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02-02-2012, 12:35 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
How so? A prospect like Kadri gets ripped on for not having a better two way game and better defensive coverage. He's sent to the minors to work out the kinks to his game.

How is a top 5 pick like Schenn get a pass for being completely ineffective beyond his own blueline?

The whole notion of a shut down defenseman is an anachronism that makes me think of the Derian Hatcher/Richard Matvichuk bad old days of clutch and grab hockey. Great physical shutdown defensemen today like Nik Kronwall play at both ends of the ice and contribute to the transition game and chip in offensively. They don't stand around their own zone hoping to clear out the trash.

Schenn has shown some ability to rush the puck on occasion, but his lack of an offensive game is unacceptable if he's to be considered a cornerstone. His two costly misses against Pittsburgh were just as damaging as any Kadri turn over resulting in a goal against.

You have to contribute two ways to some extent to be a core member. Otherwise, what separates him from a throwaway like Komisarek?
I guess I just value defensemen who show more promise in their D zone over a player who might win some battles after he just lugged the puck up the ice.

Both are important. I will add that a two-way D man will have more success in a system like Ron Wilson's.

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02-02-2012, 01:06 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
Schenn + for JVR is something anyone of us would do.

But I don't know if JVR fits that well

Lupul - ____ - Kessel
Kulie - Grabo - MacA

Does he take MacA's spot? He's better than him, but will he produce as well as MacA, Mac is a good fit with Grabs and Kulie.
Switch Kuli and Mac on the wings and I think JvR would fit nicely in beside Kuli and Grabo.

Feel like a team such as Nashville would be interested in Mac, provide some more scoring depth for them if they want to make a playoff run.

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Old
02-02-2012, 01:18 PM
  #47
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you cant release a player (komi)
schenn will never be the captain. the captain now will be the captain for years to come

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02-02-2012, 01:22 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Hawaiinleaf View Post
Firstly i am against any trade of Schenn....period

Great D dont develop until most players are in 23-26 age group to become dominant. And he is 22...

Secondly his play has returned to that strong bruising D which we need badly because were soft as a team and he leads league in hits..

Last nights game was a great display by Schenn again...

But if he is traded and Komi is released as many want, we lose our 2 biggest and toughest D...As a soft team already we become dramatically softer fast and a lot smaller given Schenn is 230lb and Komi is 245lb...

So the question for those who think is a good idea, is what is the plan 2 replace the size and sandpaper on D you want to trade away???
If it was up to me, I would have Phaneuf traded. There are some good forwards out there supposedly on the trading block. That would take care of the cap situation. One hefty contract for another but you'd get a good forward back.

I'd keep Schenn. Don't forget he is still fairly young and doesn't have a good partner yet. So, he is learning pretty much on his own. Gunnar is good but I think he's a bit overrated because the D is still pretty mediocre. Remember, this core is one of the most expensive in the League. Yet, their stats aren't exactly flattering considering.

I know I'd be raked over the coals suggesting to trade everyone's fav. son and he gets 25 or so minutes a game but imho, he's lazy and often lets his partner or wingers do most of the work. I notice they are the ones in the corner fighting and scraping with the forecheckers, usually not him. He'll pick up loose pucks and shoot it off boards but doesn't seem to do much work. No wonder he can play over 20 minutes a game doing that.

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Old
02-02-2012, 01:26 PM
  #49
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Schenn needs to stay..he is our future Captain

I would rather trade first round pick and a foward for the power forward we need than trade Schenn
If Schenn is our future captain god help us all

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02-02-2012, 01:27 PM
  #50
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Schenn should look to improve his skating in the offseason. If he can improve his skating he will most likely be a monster. We're going to need Luke in the playoffs. It's been a bad season for Luke thus far, but hopefully these past two games are a sign of things to come. I expect the Leafs brass will maybe have him shed some mass and work on his first step and stride in the offseason.

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