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If Schenn is traded

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Old
02-02-2012, 08:48 PM
  #76
Kessely Snipes
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As soon as we trade Schenn away we will be looking for a shutdown defensemen. I don`t see Komi fitting long term.

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02-02-2012, 10:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Kessely Snipes View Post
As soon as we trade Schenn away we will be looking for a shutdown defensemen. I don`t see Komi fitting long term.
Aulie and Holzer don't fit the bill?

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02-02-2012, 10:27 PM
  #78
Thomas Malthus
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The thing is he's young still very young in fact. He does get burnt from time to time yes but that's just the learning curve not everyone progresses at the same rate. I mean in TOI he's ranked 6th on the team. Plus he's on pace to match his point totals from last season with less ice time and he's on pace for +9 last season he was -7. Numbers don't tell the whole story but people have to admit that he is progressing. just because he's not getting as much ice time per game does not mean he's regressed.

He's young still learning and has a lot of potential to be a primer shut down defenseman in the NHL. He may need another year or two before he is able to put it all together but if he does he's going to be just as important as any defenseman who can put up 40-50 points. People are way to hypocritical of these young players, not just Schenn but, Kadri, Aulie, Frattin, Gardiner, even Colborne.

Give the kids a chance they have extremely high potential if they work out great if they don't oh well you hope some of your other prospect do. Sign key free agents and move forward with keeping your prospect pools deep and working through free agency and make trades that make seance for your club. Most of the fans around here only want to make a trade for the sake of making a trade. I don't really understand the fascination with moving your promising young players because they haven't reached super stardom.
1. Just because he's young doesn't mean he should be forgiven for everything. He's been in this league for hundreds of games, "rookie" mistakes are for rookies, not veterans.
2. Only four players who played more than 30 games had a "+" rating to finish last year, it's important to consider fluctuations and not attribute it to Schenn learning to play.
3. Just because his +/- is better and he has more points doesn't mean he's progressing. Don't forget that he no longer plays on the PK, a defensive defenseman praised for his stellar defense does not play in a key defensive situation or against the opposing team's best players.
4. Many posters are stating that their willingness to trade Schenn is conditional upon the return. Few would trade him for the sake of trading him, clearly he has talent and potential (how much remains to be seen), and many realize he has value which is why he'd have to be a key component in a trade returning anything of significance.

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02-02-2012, 10:58 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Aulie and Holzer don't fit the bill?
Yeah, I suppose your right.

I overlooked Aulie, and to be fair I don't see many Marlies games / highlights to see Holzer.

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02-02-2012, 11:01 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Aulie and Holzer don't fit the bill?
How many games has holzer played in the NHL?

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02-02-2012, 11:39 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Aulie and Holzer don't fit the bill?
Neither one of those guys is an NHL players yet. Especially Holzer. So you are assuming alot and taking a big risk if you think you can just slot those guys in and fill Schenn's minutes (or potential minutes when he's on his game).

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02-02-2012, 11:43 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by NewFang View Post
Neither one of those guys is an NHL players yet. Especially Holzer. So you are assuming alot and taking a big risk if you think you can just slot those guys in and fill Schenn's minutes (or potential minutes when he's on his game).
Let's be realistic. If we traded Schenn today, we're not losing very much, considering what he's brought to the table all year this season. Out of all Leafs defensemen played this season, Schenn ranks 7th in ice time. Behind Aulie. On a six man unit. What we'd be losing would be potential, not performance.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

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02-02-2012, 11:47 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by NewFang View Post
Neither one of those guys is an NHL players yet. Especially Holzer. So you are assuming alot and taking a big risk if you think you can just slot those guys in and fill Schenn's minutes (or potential minutes when he's on his game).
Aulie is already superior to Schenn ... IMO

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02-02-2012, 11:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Aulie and Holzer don't fit the bill?
We don't have a grasp on Holzer and Aulie is terrible.

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02-03-2012, 12:15 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SeenSchenn2 View Post
We don't have a grasp on Holzer and Aulie is terrible.
So is Schenn this season...

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Old
02-03-2012, 06:30 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Let's be realistic. If we traded Schenn today, we're not losing very much, considering what he's brought to the table all year this season. Out of all Leafs defensemen played this season, Schenn ranks 7th in ice time. Behind Aulie. On a six man unit. What we'd be losing would be potential, not performance.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary
Those stats show nothing but poor coaching decisions.

Aulie has been no where near the level of Luke Schenn. Aulie was a nice experiment with Phaneuf, but was ultimately a failure. He will hopefully become a great D man, but he was not effective in his stint.

Do you think those stats would be the same if Aulie had played the 3 times the amount of games? (Aulie at 15, Schenn at 50).

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02-03-2012, 07:17 AM
  #87
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If Schenn wasn't a first rounder nobody would really care about him. He is too slow footed to be a top D man. Surely scouts see his limitations.

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02-03-2012, 07:27 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
If Schenn wasn't a first rounder nobody would really care about him. He is too slow footed to be a top D man. Surely scouts see his limitations.
Then why was he a 1st rounder?

Your logic doesn't make sense.

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02-03-2012, 07:29 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Then why was he a 1st rounder?

Your logic doesn't make sense.
Do you believe that all 1st rounder are automatically worthy of their selection?

No I am not saying he is a terrible player but it is becoming obvious that he isn't living up to the hype and expectations that were put forth when he was drafted. This is not uncommon in Toronto.

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02-03-2012, 07:37 AM
  #90
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were all free to our opinions...the only one that matters is Burkes for now

I am in the keep Schenn camp for sure

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02-03-2012, 07:42 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Do you believe that all 1st rounder are automatically worthy of their selection?

No I am not saying he is a terrible player but it is becoming obvious that he isn't living up to the hype and expectations that were put forth when he was drafted. This is not uncommon in Toronto.
Toronto is far from the only team who had Schenn ranked at 5th overall. There's a reason he was ranked there, and there's a reason he's sought after (Hint: It's not because he "sucks")

He wasn't drafted for speed or skating.

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02-03-2012, 07:46 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Toronto is far from the only team who had Schenn ranked at 5th overall. There's a reason he was ranked there, and there's a reason he's sought after (Hint: It's not because he "sucks")

He wasn't drafted for speed or skating.
Didn't say he sucked and I could care less about ranking four years ago. Things change...well some anyway.

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02-03-2012, 08:22 AM
  #93
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Didn't say he sucked and I could care less about ranking four years ago. Things change...well some anyway.
Yeah, the "sucks" comment was just a summary of the general opinion in this thread.

My point is things haven't changed outside of the fan base. GM's, league-wide, likely still see a ton of value in Schenn (value that doesn't appear in his skating ability - which people seem to think puts him on par with the worst-of-the-worst).

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02-03-2012, 09:24 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Aulie is already superior to Schenn ... IMO
See, now this is getting too far. Aulie isn't even an NHL defenseman yet. And compared to Schenn his shot is worse, he is slower, he's bigger but hits way less, and he is even more prone to errors.

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02-03-2012, 10:10 AM
  #95
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well good job there is no plan to trade him and release Komi then

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02-03-2012, 10:35 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Let's be realistic. If we traded Schenn today, we're not losing very much, considering what he's brought to the table all year this season. Out of all Leafs defensemen played this season, Schenn ranks 7th in ice time. Behind Aulie. On a six man unit. What we'd be losing would be potential, not performance.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary
Schenn has brought about 16 mins of ice time a game. When he's on he provides lots of hits, that put him out of position, and is slow on his feet.

With the emergence of Gardiner this year showing he can excel while playing 21 mins a game (hes been way above that lately, up around 25) and Phaneuf and Gunnar both doing the same I really think it makes Schenn expendable. With Liles back it means we have another D who can play 22 mins a night but provide solid offense and okay, but not the best, defense.

With a run and gun, fast paced team that strives off its speed I really would prefer having a mobile top 4 that can play solid D while also helping out offensively.

If Schenn is traded for a top six, possibly top three forward, and Komi is traded this summer for a cap floor team, that frees up 7.5 mil in our back end and opens up spots for younger guys like Aulie, Holzer and Blacker to show they can play. For not as large a cap hit.

A D of:

Gunnar-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Aulie-Liles
Holzer

Is really looking good for this team. Its gives us lots of mobility, lots of speed, size and skill. Not to mention it would be a lot cheaper then the one we have currently. The only thing people might say its missing are a #1 dman. But in contrast I think it has the potential to boast 2 #2's (Gardiner, Phaneuf), 3 #3's (Liles, Aulie, Gunnar) and a #4 (Franson). The ability to have that depth, and still have guys like Blacker and Percy coming up in the future, is looking pretty awesome.

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02-03-2012, 10:54 AM
  #97
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Something I thought was telling the other night (although I thought Schenn played great) was the Pitt player that they interviewed in the second intermission. He said that their strategy was based around the fact that the Leafs were riding their top D men for a lot of minutes and that they felt they could take advantage in the third.

It didn't happen, but it would be good to see the bottom guys, Luke included, stepping up for more minutes.

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02-03-2012, 12:00 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
Toronto is far from the only team who had Schenn ranked at 5th overall. There's a reason he was ranked there, and there's a reason he's sought after (Hint: It's not because he "sucks")

He wasn't drafted for speed or skating.
At the draft if I remember hearing 30 of the 30 teams had him ranked in their top ten. Obviously that was 2008, but he obviously is still going to get better than he is. I would imagine the main priority for this Summer is to shed some mass and work on his skating.

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Old
02-03-2012, 12:04 PM
  #99
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Burke will get a kings ransom or will not even consider it

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02-03-2012, 12:11 PM
  #100
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Can someone tell me why we're even talking about Schenn's draft ranking?

That was nearly 4 years ago. He has played almost 300 NHL games since then. He isn't a prospect anymore, his former draft rankings have absolutely zero impact on how he should be presently evaluated and I'm sure all 30 GM's in the NHL have that attitude towards him. Are we suddenly going to start valuing Komi more because he's a former 7th overall pick?

And in regards to the age-based arguments (basically arguments like: he's young, therefore he will be good), enjoy some copypasta from the other Schenn threads:

Quote:
Here's the thing with age: it isn't age in and of itself that's important. All things being equal there is no real difference between a 22-year-old and a 25-year-old. Age is just a very good indicator of other factors that are (in and of themselves) important. Primarily these are experience, physical maturity, and emotional/psychological maturity. If there's any I'm missing please let me know, but in my mind it's these 3 factors that generally separate someone who's 22 and someone who's 25.

Take Gardiner and Kadri as examples.

Gardiner is only 8 months younger than Schenn. So what is the difference between the two? Mainly it's experience: Gardiner has played only 42 NHL games compared to Schenn's 279, i.e. he has just 15% the NHL experience that Schenn does. So, in the case of Gardiner, it's meaningful to point to his youth as a reason for why he isn't a premier defencemen yet, while in the case of Schenn it isn't (at least, not nearly to the same extent). In Gardiner's case his youth is an accurate indicator of his inexperience while in Schenn's case it isn't.

With Kadri there is a similar analysis that can be done with physical/emotional/psychological maturity in addition to the difference in experience. (Note: I'm a huge fan of Kadri so this isn't meant as a slight on him; he just still has some maturing to do but that's all part of the process). Kadri is only 15 months younger than Schenn and has just 17% the NHL experience Schenn does. But, in addition to this, I think it's pretty clear that Schenn is much more physically and mentally mature than Kadri. Basically, Schenn is a full-grown man at this point. He has grown into his body completely and is mentally and emotionally completely matured (the guy is great in front of reporters and the like). With Kadri this isn't really the case. It's pretty clear that he's still growing into his body, getting his "man strength" as they call it, and still learning what his ideal weight and such is. It's similar with his mental development: he's still learning how to be a pro, how to deal with the media, how to deal with fan pressure, etc.

So, in the case of Kadri, it's meaningful to point to his youth as a reason for why he hasn't broke out yet, while in the case of Schenn it isn't. In Kadri's case his youth is an accurate indicator of his emotional/psychological maturity while in Schenn's case it isn't.

Remember people, this isn't 2008 any more. Schenn isn't a prospect and he's no longer the fresh-faced 5th overall pick straight out of Juniors. Relative to a lot of players he's basically a seasoned vet. It isn't unreasonable to be concerned that at this point in his career he's basically trying to recreate the success he had as a rookie.

And lastly, I'm sure there's people who've read this and are ready to object by pointing out that with defencemen they often take longer to reach their peak than forwards. This is definitely true to an extent. But I can't really think of any examples of D-men who played for ~8 years and then in their late 20's suddenly blossomed into the type of player Schenn is often envisioned to become. For every player you think of that did break out in their late 20's (Keith comes to mind for me) ask yourselves, how old were they when they entered the league?


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