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Is It A Good Idea to Fire Gauthier Now?

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Old
02-03-2012, 05:58 PM
  #226
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The Gauthier apologists are similar to the Gainey ones in years past. They'll eventually come back down to reality and realize Gauthier is nowhere near a good GM.

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02-03-2012, 06:16 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Can you please enumerate them so I can shoot them down one by one?
They have been posted on multiple occasions. Posting them one more time will not change your mind.

Scroll through this thread and you will see several references to those trades.

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02-03-2012, 06:28 PM
  #228
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People are still defending Gauthier? Seriously????

The Habs have have been surpassed by every team in the east excpet Carolina.

Sure the Habs have had injuries, we understand that. But so have the Penguins who stand at 5th BTW. Crosby played 8 games. Staal missed over 15 games, Letang over 20. Pittsburgh played without key players, not chump change.

Gauthier knew Markov wouldn't start the season. He was aware that he would be missing some time. They went out first to get campoli he got hurt but what has he done since he came back from his injury? Sqaut. Then they tried to get Kaberle. That didn't help either. Habs have NO depth and I don't blame them for not being first in the East. I blame them for being last.

The Habs are supposed to be an A class organization. Damn, they even build their sports complex in Brossard so they can have as much ice time as possible. Yet teams like the Panthers, Winnipeg, and Islanders, my god the Islanders, are all ahead of Montreal.

Not ever person on HFboards can handle the numbers side of being a GM. There is that business side to the position where Gauthier might be good at. But common man, he's only dug the Habs into a deeper hole since goinging the team. On the hockey decision, any arm chair GM here could have done a better job. I'm serious.

Lets look at the team before the season started and where it's now.

At the beginning, there was full of hope. Most people had the habs making the playoffs on paper. You do what you can with the players you have. Things went to crap real fast and after firing 2 coaches and making some trades you are now WORSE off than before.

IF Gauthier had done NOTHING, the Habs may still be losing but next season you would have had Spacek off the books. But now you not only have Gomez to worry about (common 1 year without a goal!?) at $7.3M, you have Kaberle's $4.2M to add onto it. Have these 2 guys helped the team get better? No the team got worse.

$11.5M on 2 players who will not contribute enough to win games. that's almost 20% of the total players salary!! Seriously? It's like Montreal starting next season with a budget of 80% of the other teams. How will that help him next season? How will that help the new GM if they hire one?

PLUS we ALLLLL know that even though Gainey approved of Martin, he was Gauthier's man the whole time. Gauthier had SO much faith in him, he waited till it was beyond too late to pull the plug on one of the highest paid Coach in the league from what I heard.

The ONLY thing Gauthier did right since being the offical GM in Montreal was getting Cole IMO. Every other move he makes, most people shake their heads, like "seriously?" Now if he made strange moves and the Habs are in the top of the league, I have nothing to say, but he makes trades and decisions which most people tend to agree were not very good and they end up not being very good. So what makes him a good GM?

If there's one thing he's good at is convincing his bosses he's doing something good because to this day I have no clue even why Gauthier was even considered as Gainey's replacement. He has never proven to accomplish anything great anywhere. Instead he's accomplished crap and he's doing the Habs more harm than good here. Not only is the Season ruined, The Habs managed to bring down the worth of Webber, Gomez (even though I think Gomez did this on his own), PK, Pleckanec, Gionta, and Eller. I'm not saying that any of these players have NO value. I'm just saying that they had more value at the beginning of the season before Martin slaughtered their game with his "system"....

The faster they fire Gauthier, the better the new GM can figure out which players he wants for next season and trade the most players which the team believes they won't want next year to get the best possible next season.

I am a fan and I want the Habs to make the play-offs. But at this point of the season with the way the Habs have played all season, the chances of making the play-offs are next to none. The chances of having a better team on the ice next season are very good if you become a seller. Only a fool goes against those odds.


Last edited by Belso: 02-03-2012 at 06:34 PM.
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02-03-2012, 06:33 PM
  #229
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lol why? Name me a trade where he completely crippled this club.
Please for ****s sake...we are going to miss the playoffs. That in itself is enough to get his ugly ass canned.

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02-03-2012, 07:03 PM
  #230
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lol why? Name me a trade where he completely crippled this club.
Kaberle.

before the trade, Spacek's salary was being taken off the books for next season. Only Montreal was interested in Kaberle. He's done nothing to help the Habs win games since the trade. You think someone who wasn't interested in Kaberle before will want him now at $4.2M for the next two seasons?

The other trades didn't cripple the Habs, But didn't improve them any. I have nothing agaist Eller or Bourque, but Gauther traded Montreal's best 2 assets 2 seasons ago for a 3rd line player with potential and Ryder 2.0...

So ya, I'm also scared of what Gauthier might try before the deadline.. Trying to be a buyer now to TRY and make the playoffs is throwing assets in the trash.

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02-03-2012, 07:11 PM
  #231
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The first season after Gauthier left Anaheim, they were one win away from the Cup. They did this with a roster that was 90% of Gauthier's guys. And the Conn Smythe winner was a goalie who Gauthier acquired by absolutely fleecing Calgary in a trade.

I don't think he sunk that ship.


In Ottawa, Gauthier took over a team that got 41 pts in his first season running them (He took over December 11th of that season). A team that had been attrocious before he got there.

Within 1 season he had them in the playoffs.
The Sens would not miss the playoffs in his time with the team.
They would continue to get more pts nearly every year.
The Sens didn't want him to leave when he went to Anaheim.

Here is his full track record with those teams.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...an-interesting


So what was Montreal trying to do?

You hire a guy who run nothing but EXPANSION TEAMS....near every season as him being GM was at bottom of NHL.What does he know about winning?


NOW in Montreal , where is Montreal at?

AT THE BOTTOM...

No fluke, like hiring a Walmart store manager to run Microsoft....
Sure the Walmart guy has manager exp.....


Last edited by Habaneros: 02-03-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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02-03-2012, 08:32 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Belso View Post
Kaberle.

before the trade, Spacek's salary was being taken off the books for next season. Only Montreal was interested in Kaberle. He's done nothing to help the Habs win games since the trade. You think someone who wasn't interested in Kaberle before will want him now at $4.2M for the next two seasons?

The other trades didn't cripple the Habs, But didn't improve them any. I have nothing agaist Eller or Bourque, but Gauther traded Montreal's best 2 assets 2 seasons ago for a 3rd line player with potential and Ryder 2.0...

So ya, I'm also scared of what Gauthier might try before the deadline.. Trying to be a buyer now to TRY and make the playoffs is throwing assets in the trash.
Come back to me when Kaberle's salary prevents us from signing a core player going forward. Cammy's savings and Campoli off the books essentially pays for him already so I have no idea where this "crippling" is coming from.

I don't get the hate for this guy. He's currently our most productive D-man with the best offensive awareness out of the whole bunch. Our PP is still crap but at least his presence allows for zone control and possession rather than getting out-chanced on the freaking man advantage. That's a step in the right direction so build from there.

I don't care much for trading Kaberle. I want to keep him, insulate him and enjoy watching him produce. Talent like that is hard to come by. Used with the right partner and you maximize his utility.

The Cammy and Halak returns were realistic and satisfactory. Anyone hoping for a better return are left with just that. Hoping.

Gauthier's not an idiot so I don't see why you'd be scared that we'd start buying given our position. Unjustified paranoia.

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02-03-2012, 08:41 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Come back to me when Kaberle's salary prevents us from signing a core player going forward. Cammy's savings and Campoli off the books essentially pays for him already so I have no idea where this "crippling" is coming from.

I don't get the hate for this guy. He's currently our most productive D-man with the best offensive awareness out of the whole bunch. Our PP is still crap but at least his presence allows for zone control and possession rather than getting out-chanced on the freaking man advantage. That's a step in the right direction so build from there.

I don't care much for trading Kaberle. I want to keep him, insulate him and enjoy watching him produce. Talent like that is hard to come by. Used with the right partner and you maximize his utility.

The Cammy and Halak returns were realistic and satisfactory. Anyone hoping for a better return are left with just that. Hoping.

Gauthier's not an idiot so I don't see why you'd be scared that we'd start buying given our position. Unjustified paranoia.
Tell you what.

Salary cap isn't just about retaining core players, it's also about stacking the team for a run. Gomez's salary over a guy like Dominic Moore's effectively removed a guy of Wiz's salary. Which could make the massive difference between 5th and 10th.

Just saying.

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02-03-2012, 08:49 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Tell you what.

Salary cap isn't just about retaining core players, it's also about stacking the team for a run. Gomez's salary over a guy like Dominic Moore's effectively removed a guy of Wiz's salary. Which could make the massive difference between 5th and 10th.

Just saying.
Gomez at 7 million on pace for 28 pts on the season (if he stayed healthy)... is massive overpayment for a centre.

Kaberle at 4.25, on pace for 48pts as a defenceman (only his games in Montreal) is not overpaid.

Do you realize how few Dmen in the NHL are capable of 40+ assists?

Kaberle was 5th in the whole league for assists by a dman last year, and has a similar pace to that since becoming a hab.

Yes the guy has defensive deficencies, but thats also why he's worth 4.25.

A 45-50 pt defenceman who plays 25 minutes a night and shuts down other teams top lines would be a Norris Trophy Candidate and get upwards of 7 million as a UFA.

So yeah, no one is saying Kaberle doesn't have weaknesses defensively, but he is fairly paid for what he produces considering that deficiency.

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02-03-2012, 08:51 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Gomez at 7 million on pace for 28 pts on the season (if he stayed healthy)... is massive overpayment for a centre.

Kaberle at 4.25, on pace for 48pts as a defenceman (only his games in Montreal) is not overpaid.

Do you realize how few Dmen in the NHL are capable of 40+ assists?

Kaberle was 5th in the whole league for assists by a dman last year, and has a similar pace to that since becoming a hab.

Yes the guy has defensive deficencies, but thats also why he's worth 4.25.

A 45-50 pt defenceman who plays 25 minutes a night and shuts down other teams top lines would be a Norris Trophy Candidate and get upwards of 7 million as a UFA.

So yeah, no one is saying Kaberle doesn't have weaknesses defensively, but he is fairly paid for what he produces considering that deficiency.
He's playing 17ish minutes a game. AKA Sheltered minutes.

We're paying a PP specialist/bottom pairing Dman 4.25M$. He's not fairly paid. He's not grossly overpaid though. He's a serviceable player and brings much needed veteran presence to what is and will be a very young blue line.

But the idea that losing cap space here and there on contracts has no effects because we don't lose core players, and as such is alright, is stupid.

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02-03-2012, 08:55 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Come back to me when Kaberle's salary prevents us from signing a core player going forward. Cammy's savings and Campoli off the books essentially pays for him already so I have no idea where this "crippling" is coming from.

I don't get the hate for this guy. He's currently our most productive D-man with the best offensive awareness out of the whole bunch. Our PP is still crap but at least his presence allows for zone control and possession rather than getting out-chanced on the freaking man advantage. That's a step in the right direction so build from there.

I don't care much for trading Kaberle. I want to keep him, insulate him and enjoy watching him produce. Talent like that is hard to come by. Used with the right partner and you maximize his utility.

The Cammy and Halak returns were realistic and satisfactory. Anyone hoping for a better return are left with just that. Hoping.

Gauthier's not an idiot so I don't see why you'd be scared that we'd start buying given our position. Unjustified paranoia.

I don't mind coming back to you next year season after we see who they could have had but didn't. But we will have to wait until next season starts to be able to do so.

And I don't hate Kaberle. He's not a bad person. But he just isn't wroth his salary. That's the problem. Kaberle has one strenth. He can help out the PP a little. But 5 on 5 he's nothing special. He can't be used on the Penalty kill, he can't make a big hit or use his size to play physical. And his shot is nothing special either.

The Habs traded for him for one reason only. To try and score more on the PP to win more games. That alone won't help your team. Marc-Andre Bergeron has 2 more points than Kaberle and can offer the exact same thing as Kaberle. yet MAB is making $1M this season, not $4.2M.

I know Wisniewski broke his ankle but at $5.5M he was producing more on the score sheet than Kaberle, could play a physical game and was not afraid to drop the gloves and did so when needed be.

Anyways, we'll have to wait and see what happens next season but if the cap is going down with the new CBA next season, the $4.2M might hurt even more...

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02-03-2012, 09:00 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
He's playing 17ish minutes a game. AKA Sheltered minutes.

We're paying a PP specialist/bottom pairing Dman 4.25M$. He's not fairly paid. He's not grossly overpaid though. He's a serviceable player and brings much needed veteran presence to what is and will be a very young blue line.

But the idea that losing cap space here and there on contracts has no effects because we don't lose core players, and as such is alright, is stupid.
Yeah, he's not a top 4 dman.

Wiz was a #4 dman with 1 50 pt season in his career, and he got 5.5 million per season.

That just shows you the value of that amount of pts from your blue line...

Kaberle would get even more money if he was still a 20 minute per game guy.

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02-03-2012, 09:01 PM
  #238
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Yeah, he's not a top 4 dman.

Wiz was a #4 dman with 1 50 pt season in his career, and he got 5.5 million per season.

That just shows you the value of that amount of pts from your blue line...

Kaberle would get even more money if he was still a 20 minute per game guy.
Kaberle got that money with the assumption he was a 20+ min a night guy, then failed miserably at that.

So Carolina cut their losses and got an expiring contract.

Wiz is definately a 20+ min guy, you just had to see him play last year to see it.

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02-03-2012, 09:08 PM
  #239
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Kaberle got that money with the assumption he was a 20+ min a night guy, then failed miserably at that.

So Carolina cut their losses and got an expiring contract.

Wiz is definately a 20+ min guy, you just had to see him play last year to see it.
Wiz makes 1.25 million more than Kaberle, thats where you missed the point.

If Kaberle could survive without the sheltered minutes, he'd get even more money.

And for the other guy don't even compare Kaberle to MAB... if we are gonna call Kaberle's minutes "sheltered" then we should call MABs minutes in Tampa "protected like fort knox".... just check his stats at behindthenet and how they compare to Kaberle... specifically zone starts and zone finishes.

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02-03-2012, 09:09 PM
  #240
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Wiz makes 1.25 million more than Kaberle, thats where you missed the point.
His current contract is irrelevant as Columbus thought they had to sign him before July 1st after acquiring his rights.

I said someone of his cap hit. Could have said someone of Markov's cap hit. The point was made a while ago, now we're arguing about specific players.

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02-03-2012, 09:10 PM
  #241
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I don't mind coming back to you next year season after we see who they could have had but didn't. But we will have to wait until next season starts to be able to do so.

And I don't hate Kaberle. He's not a bad person. But he just isn't wroth his salary. That's the problem. Kaberle has one strenth. He can help out the PP a little. But 5 on 5 he's nothing special. He can't be used on the Penalty kill, he can't make a big hit or use his size to play physical. And his shot is nothing special either.

The Habs traded for him for one reason only. To try and score more on the PP to win more games. That alone won't help your team. Marc-Andre Bergeron has 2 more points than Kaberle and can offer the exact same thing as Kaberle. yet MAB is making $1M this season, not $4.2M.

I know Wisniewski broke his ankle but at $5.5M he was producing more on the score sheet than Kaberle, could play a physical game and was not afraid to drop the gloves and did so when needed be.

Anyways, we'll have to wait and see what happens next season but if the cap is going down with the new CBA next season, the $4.2M might hurt even more...
First, I hope you're not talking about UFA's because just because we have the money does not mean they would automatically sign here. So if we're talking about loosing Subban or Price then ya, let's reserve judgement until we loose either.

We will disagree on our respective talent analysis of Kaberle. I do NOT categorize him as a PP specialist. He brings so much more. He's a fantastic passer, fluid skater, great vision and overall an above average offensive awareness. He lacks strength and ferocity in our zone which limits his takeaway ability but his breakouts are effortless when he does have the puck. This type of player just SCREAMS a stud defensive partner to form a very effective pairing.

MAB is getting paid 1 million because he's on the extreme end of the spectrum. Completely incompetent in the defensive zone with his erratic play and unforced turnover. Kaberle is no where near as bad.

Also CBJ can keep Wiz and his ridiculous price tag. I would have never paid him that kind of money for what he brings to the table.

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02-03-2012, 09:11 PM
  #242
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His current contract is irrelevant as Columbus thought they had to sign him before July 1st after acquiring his rights.
This is grasping at straws. It is absolutely relevant.

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I said someone of his cap hit. Could have said someone of Markov's cap hit.
If Markov's knee wasn't an issue, Markov would have gotten more money IMO.

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02-03-2012, 09:14 PM
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If Markov's knee wasn't an issue, Markov would have gotten more money IMO.
Once again, I'm unsure of why we're talking about this when the point was that having overpaid players, even if you don't lose core players, can make a big difference.

If we had Moore at 1.5M$ over Gomez' current cap hit, we could have a top 6 forward/top 4 D more on the roster.

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This is grasping at straws. It is absolutely relevant.
That's your opinion. Circumstances lead me to believe he'd be signed at a cheaper cap hit or at a lesser term if Montreal didn't just decide they didn't want him back.

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02-03-2012, 09:17 PM
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Once again, I'm unsure of why we're talking about this when the point was that having overpaid players, even if you don't lose core players, can make a big difference.

If we had Moore at 1.5M$ over Gomez' current cap hit, we could have a top 6 forward/top 4 D more on the roster.

That's your opinion. Circumstances lead me to believe he'd be signed at a cheaper cap hit or at a lesser term if Montreal didn't just decide they didn't want him back.
My point is that comparing Kaberle's contract to Gomez's contract is completely ridiculous.

They are not even close to the same level.

One player has production that is pretty close to what his cap hit gets you on the UFA market.

The other player has production that is worth about 5 or 6 million less as a UFA than his cap hit.

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02-03-2012, 09:22 PM
  #245
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My point is that comparing Kaberle's contract to Gomez's contract is completely ridiculous.

They are not even close to the same level.

One player has production that is pretty close to what his cap hit gets you on the UFA market.

The other player has production that is worth about 5 or 6 million less as a UFA than his cap hit.
I don't think Kabs' cap hit is close to his true value since he's used as a PP specialist/bottom pairing guy. And it's going to be downhill in all likelyhood from now on.

If Kabs' value is around 4.25M$, ask yourself if that's what you'd pay to have M-A Bergeron on your team. He's playing around 18-19 mins a night over in Tampa with 45ish point production.

There's more to it than stats.

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02-03-2012, 09:24 PM
  #246
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Tell you what.

Salary cap isn't just about retaining core players, it's also about stacking the team for a run. Gomez's salary over a guy like Dominic Moore's effectively removed a guy of Wiz's salary. Which could make the massive difference between 5th and 10th.

Just saying.
we had both Wiz and Gomez last season... granted it was half a season of Wiz... the $ saved with Markov (and Gomez) injuries would have make up for the whole year of Wiz salary this season, ...

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02-03-2012, 09:28 PM
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I don't think Kabs' cap hit is close to his true value since he's used as a PP specialist/bottom pairing guy. And it's going to be downhill in all likelyhood from now on.

If Kabs' value is around 4.25M$, ask yourself if that's what you'd pay to have M-A Bergeron on your team. He's playing around 18-19 mins a night over in Tampa with 45ish point production.

There's more to it than stats.
Bergeron's 18-19 minutes are the most sheltered minutes in the NHL. The stats for it are out there.

Behindthenet.ca

Also Kabs is 33, which is not really that old for a primarily puck moving dman, what means its down hill.... his numbers over the last 5 years show about the same PPG pace (remove two months in Carolina where he just had no chemistry on that team).

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02-03-2012, 09:29 PM
  #248
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I'm 110% sure once fired by the Montreal Canadiens Mr. Pierre Gauthier will never be hired ever again by an NHL team

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02-03-2012, 09:30 PM
  #249
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I'm 110% sure once fired by the Montreal Canadiens Mr. Pierre Gauthier will never be hired ever again by an NHL team
Oh please.... If JFJ can get a job, Gauthier will get a job too.

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02-03-2012, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Oh please.... If JFJ can get a job, Gauthier will get a job too.
Well see, don't bet on it

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