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Old
02-03-2012, 03:15 PM
  #51
ZZamboni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingpig View Post
Geesh Zzamboni.....
That was Debbie Downerish!!

It is a time for youthful exuberance, high expectations and lots of fun.

Im gonnna counter that post. Here is my advice. Fight like hell to fix things and make them better when they get a bit rough!!
I think you misunderstood my point Probably my fault. Didn't explain it right.

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02-03-2012, 03:28 PM
  #52
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My girlfriend (at the time) knew that it was coming, but didn't know when. I rented the local ice rink out for an hour. (We had started dating there and she loved to skate) We skated for a bit, and then went to the point where we started the relationship, and I said some things and hit the knee and away we went. I had asked her father beforehand and her parents did a nice job of saying nothing. Just have fun with it and good luck!

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02-03-2012, 04:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
The ask-her-father thing has to be dying. That tradition began when women were considered chattel to be handed from father to husband, and still reeks of that connotation.

And before you tell me that has nothing to do with it, why don't people ask the mother's permission?
The mother has already given me permission without me asking. If she had her way, we'd have been engaged for months by now.
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Originally Posted by zbubble View Post


Totally missing the point. You're not negotiating a dowry here. There's a special bond between fathers and daughters that is different from fathers and sons. A daughter getting married signifies the father is no longer the #1 man in her life. His blessing let's you know he's okay with you being the one to take care of her for the rest of her life. That's why the mother isn't a part of this. It's still honorable and classy.

Equating it to property means you just don't understand that bond.
To Haseoke: see the bolded. I'm asking permission to become the #1a man in her life; his only daughter, his first born, basically his little pride-and-joy princess. And he's extremely old-school. Family oriented, Sunday dinners at 2PM... it's not something I'm used to.

Don't get me wrong, me and my family are really close...but her and her family are constantly together, always, for everything, every occasion, etc.

Not to mention that we don't share the same religious beliefs - I'm sure he'd like to know that I've conceded to raise kids under their mother's religious beliefs. This is something I think he needs/wants to hear, as if there was ANY potential issue, it'd center around this premise.
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when Jaws pops out of the water
I'll let this slide because of the avatar change. THANK YOU, now we'll go on a winning streak (the Sabres, not chicky and I)
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
First off, let me offer my pre-emptive congratulations. Next, I second the discussion with her father. If nothing else, it's a polite thing to do, at least in my opinion. Finally, as noted by just about everyone, you know her best, so trust your gut about what you want to do. The proposal is not a harbinger of things to come in the marriage, so do what feels right.



You can also use this to your advantage though. For example, take a weekend trip somewhere and wait until late-afternoon/evening on Sunday to pop the question. Chances are that once Friday passes into Saturday and into Sunday, she'll probably think it's not coming that weekend. That's what I did, anyways. We went to New Orleans for a Thursday-Monday trip. As the sun was going down, I told her that I wanted to go get one last order of beignets before we skipped town. After we ate, we sat across the street from Jackson Square and St. Louis Cathedral (up by the river), and I asked her there. Later, she admitted that she had given up hope for an engagement that trip after I didn't take advantage of a nice opportunity on Saturday night.

Or, alternatively, take her on a trip and don't ask that weekend. She'll then get the "I'm not even going to hope for it anymore" feeling, and then pop the question on the next trip.
Awesome idea, and thanks for the words of encouragement and your story.

____________________

And thank you all for the advice/storytelling. Please keep 'em coming. I love to see how unique each individual situation is.

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Old
02-03-2012, 08:55 PM
  #54
MacOfNiagara
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If you need a free minister, I did the grand HF boards wedding of Penalty Killa and Clock and they turned out pretty good. Clearly a testimony to my ministerial skills. High 1st round minister material all the way.

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02-03-2012, 11:10 PM
  #55
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We eloped, and loved it - no regrets.

We drove down to the beach the day after Thanksgiving, met the non-denominational beach hippie who did the deed, and grabbed a couple of strangers off the beach for witnesses. Bonus: we always celebrate our anniversary the day after Thanksgiving, so there's no date to forget, and we both usually have at least a 4-day weekend. That's a huge plus, IMO.

It was perfect for us - but it's not for everyone. We had already been living 600+ miles away from "home" for a long time at that point, and had been living together for almost a decade.

Good luck, whichever way you go, and be sure to have fun and enjoy yourselves. Everything else is secondary.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't ask her father for permission. I can appreciate the tradition, but I figured why ask the question if you're not willing to accept no for an answer anyway?


Last edited by jlr: 02-03-2012 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
02-04-2012, 06:20 AM
  #56
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I took my wife on a picnic in Griffis. Asked her there but she already knew since I got her family heirloom ring from her mom.
Just be confident but not cocky. And smile when you ask her. She will remember it and poke fun at you for whatever isn't perfect. No pressure though...

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Old
02-04-2012, 06:23 AM
  #57
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Oh and an additional note: at our wedding I missed a button on my shirt. So did my best men. She noticed during our vows. But she flubbed her lines like Mike Grier on a breakaway.

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02-04-2012, 08:08 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
If you need a free minister, I did the grand HF boards wedding of Penalty Killa and Clock and they turned out pretty good. Clearly a testimony to my ministerial skills. High 1st round minister material all the way.
This is absolutely, positively true. Mac was awesome, and we would both whole-heartedly give him a top-flight recommendation for anyone looking for an officiant / wedding dude. We couldn't have been happier.

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02-04-2012, 08:36 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbubble View Post


Totally missing the point. You're not negotiating a dowry here. There's a special bond between fathers and daughters that is different from fathers and sons. A daughter getting married signifies the father is no longer the #1 man in her life. His blessing let's you know he's okay with you being the one to take care of her for the rest of her life. That's why the mother isn't a part of this. It's still honorable and classy.

Equating it to property means you just don't understand that bond.
Oh, I understand the bond between fathers and daughters - and all of this is an aside from jbuds issue. jbud, godbless, do whatever makes all the people in your new family happiest and you'll be a happy man in return.

But speaking about the tradition in general, what you said only reinforces what I believe about it. A husband supplanting the father as the #1 man in a girl's life so that he can take care of her the rest of her life has all the same connotations of the tradition it came from except the formal exchange of money. How about this? A woman never belongs to her father or her husband, and isn't passed along from one to the other, following a private negotiation just between the men, to be taken care of like a child? We're in the 21st century, women can take care of themselves, and don't need to be paternally handed down, resting on the father's wisdom for whether his daughter is allowed to marry or not, any more than a woman needs to go ask permission from the mother-in-law to be the new caregiver for her husband. It's icky and reeks of paternalistic old gender roles that you're covering up by the phrase "special bond" - listen, we all have special bonds with people we love, but that doesn't mean those people get a preemptive veto of our most important life decisions. Whether or not the father actually has the power to refuse his daughter to marry anymore, the whole tradition is rested on the presumption that he can. There are plenty of ways to show affection and respect for your wife's father that don't signify that he has the power over whether she chooses to marry or not. I understand the charm some people see in it, but I guarantee you it's on the wane.

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Old
02-04-2012, 08:52 AM
  #60
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Haseoke ... Simply question .... Only requires a simple yes or no. No need for more than that.

Are you a democrat?

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Old
02-04-2012, 09:38 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by zbubble View Post
Sure, hundreds of years ago. And the origin of Halloween started as a day to put on a disguise to prevent being recognized by a soul that might be seeking vengence on All-Saints day. Just cause traditions evolve into different meanings doesn't mean we should get rid of them (not directed at you b_g, but to the poster who first brought it up).
More like tens of years ago, or still going on, depending on where you live / where you're from. Even if it wasn't about an actual dowry, until women worked outside the home regularly and could provide for themselves, there was still a property/ownership aspect to marriage in general and traditions like this in particular.

But I agree with the rest - it's doesn't mean the same thing now, outside of isolated pockets of fundamentalism, so if it's something that you think is appropriate, and want to do, I say go for it.

Especially if it's understood that you're not really asking for anyone's permission. Blessings or well-wishes, fine - but you're both adults, and about to start your own family. You don't need anyone's permission, and the only one who can tell you no is the prospective bride.

It's a sign of deference and respect to discuss it with the patriarch - or a matriarch, as the case may be - and that can be a nice gesture and way to establish trust. But we shouldn't ignore the history of marriage - especially since it really is pretty recent history.

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02-06-2012, 01:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
But speaking about the tradition in general, what you said only reinforces what I believe about it. A husband supplanting the father as the #1 man in a girl's life so that he can take care of her the rest of her life has all the same connotations of the tradition it came from except the formal exchange of money.
I'm sorry you've twisted a showing of respect and honor for a family into fitting your agenda. You've already equated it to chattel, which would be devoid of all honor and respect. If you really don't see the difference between "I love and want to spend the rest of my life with your daughter" as opposed to "how much will you give me to take this burden off your hands?", then the problem isn't with everyone else, the problem is with you.

Quote:
How about this? A woman never belongs to her father or her husband, and isn't passed along from one to the other, following a private negotiation just between the men, to be taken care of like a child? We're in the 21st century, women can take care of themselves, and don't need to be paternally handed down, resting on the father's wisdom for whether his daughter is allowed to marry or not, any more than a woman needs to go ask permission from the mother-in-law to be the new caregiver for her husband
That's super. Let's get hell bent on going crazy to fix things with gender identity that do not need fixing. Why don't we also get rid of:

1. Opening doors for women. Open it your damn selves.
2. Women and children first. Not on this sinking ship, save yourselves, I'm outta here.
3. Title IX. Good-bye women's teams. Play WITH the boys or go home.
4. Maternity leave. Get back to work, slacker.
5. Bugs. I am not killing spiders and flying insects for you anymore.
6. Chores. I'm sick of being the only one who shovels the driveway, mows the lawn, and takes the garbage out.
7. Separate bathrooms in public places. Just a waste of space. We need co-ed bathrooms, and if the seat wasn't down before you sat down, it's your fault for not checking.
8. Maternity parking. Seriously? You're nimble enough to leave the house and walk around the mall.
9. Ladies night. Pay full price for each drink, mooches.
10. N.O.W. Won't need that in the new world of equality.


And chivalry is dead. Yay.


Quote:
I understand the charm some people see in it, but I guarantee you it's on the wane.
Instead of forcing your opinion on others, have you even tried asking women whose husbands asked their fathers for permission, whether or not it made THEM feel like property? Did they like it or not? I guarantee you will find more that found it flattering and were happy.

If it's on the wane, I guarantee it's NOT because people think it's demeaning to women. It's because they are too lazy, too scared, or too self-involved to care otherwise.


Last edited by zbubble: 02-06-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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02-06-2012, 01:40 PM
  #63
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ITT the patriarchy is both defended and hyperbolized. Christ almighty.

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Old
02-06-2012, 01:44 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by jlr View Post
More like tens of years ago, or still going on, depending on where you live / where you're from.
I am talking about the United States, where it most certainly wasn't going on as recently as tens of years ago.

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02-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Oh, I understand the bond between fathers and daughters - and all of this is an aside from jbuds issue. jbud, godbless, do whatever makes all the people in your new family happiest and you'll be a happy man in return.

But speaking about the tradition in general, what you said only reinforces what I believe about it. A husband supplanting the father as the #1 man in a girl's life so that he can take care of her the rest of her life has all the same connotations of the tradition it came from except the formal exchange of money. How about this? A woman never belongs to her father or her husband, and isn't passed along from one to the other, following a private negotiation just between the men, to be taken care of like a child? We're in the 21st century, women can take care of themselves, and don't need to be paternally handed down, resting on the father's wisdom for whether his daughter is allowed to marry or not, any more than a woman needs to go ask permission from the mother-in-law to be the new caregiver for her husband. It's icky and reeks of paternalistic old gender roles that you're covering up by the phrase "special bond" - listen, we all have special bonds with people we love, but that doesn't mean those people get a preemptive veto of our most important life decisions. Whether or not the father actually has the power to refuse his daughter to marry anymore, the whole tradition is rested on the presumption that he can. There are plenty of ways to show affection and respect for your wife's father that don't signify that he has the power over whether she chooses to marry or not. I understand the charm some people see in it, but I guarantee you it's on the wane.
Do you have a daughter?

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Old
02-06-2012, 02:03 PM
  #66
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This has veered away from its initial purpose.

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