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Paiement QMJHL Player of the Week

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10-18-2004, 07:22 PM
  #1
BobMarleyNYR
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Paiement QMJHL Player of the Week

I remember reading someone say Paziement can't be taken seriously... I disagree, and so do Q officials. OK, he might only become another Rawlyk, but Rawlyk should have a decent NHL career.

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10-18-2004, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
I remember reading someone say Paziement can't be taken seriously... I disagree, and so do Q officials. OK, he might only become another Rawlyk, but Rawlyk should have a decent NHL career.
Eh, please don't compare him to Rawlyk, that's just depressing.

I've seen 'Farrah' play a few games in Hartford, color me very skeptical that he'll ever skate at the NHL level.

Now Paiement is a curious story. . . solid size. Heavy PIMs. And absolutely sick scoring this season. I mean, the guys averaging like 1.5 points a game from the blue line! I keep waiting for him to slow down, but it hasn't happened yet.

I dunno, how bad could his skating be?

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10-18-2004, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kubera55
Eh, please don't compare him to Rawlyk, that's just depressing.

I've seen 'Farrah' play a few games in Hartford, color me very skeptical that he'll ever skate at the NHL level.

Now Paiement is a curious story. . . solid size. Heavy PIMs. And absolutely sick scoring this season. I mean, the guys averaging like 1.5 points a game from the blue line! I keep waiting for him to slow down, but it hasn't happened yet.

I dunno, how bad could his skating be?
Ive been trying hard to find the story on this kid. Apparantley, the scouts were skepitcal about his breakout year last season. In none of his teenage years did he play this good on the offensive side. I heard his skating is fine. THe only thing that held him back was the doubt that he could do it again. Also, Ive heard that since his offense has come through so late in his teenage years scouts dont believe it will translate into a pro game.

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10-18-2004, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
I remember reading someone say Paziement can't be taken seriously... I disagree, and so do Q officials. OK, he might only become another Rawlyk, but Rawlyk should have a decent NHL career.
on what planet will rawlyk have a decent nhl career?? he'll be lucky to be a solid ahler and injury-fillin

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10-18-2004, 08:06 PM
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I don't know what planet, wise guy... I think he could.

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10-18-2004, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
I don't know what planet, wise guy... I think he could.
I tend to be in agreement with the others here, Rawlyk is very unlikely to become an NHLer and could struggle to even become a regular AHL player

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10-18-2004, 09:15 PM
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I think Rawlyk was a product of a numbers game, as was Liffiton and Taylor. In his first year out of junior hickey at the appropriate age he did very well for himself, being the #1 d-man on the Checkers and being called up to Hartford at the end of the season. I've seen him play a couple of times and i am more confident in his abilities than most. I see him as being a better prospect than Guenin and Lampman, but a step behind Liffiton, Taylor and Potter.

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10-18-2004, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
I remember reading someone say Paziement can't be taken seriously... I disagree, and so do Q officials. OK, he might only become another Rawlyk, but Rawlyk should have a decent NHL career.
i know he been an NYR prospect but seriously i wonder does anyone believe this kid (Paiement)will have a spot in hrtfd or even a chance to the NHL, cause it w9ould be great to get a 6th rounder become a top 4 guy.

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10-18-2004, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
i know he been an NYR prospect but seriously i wonder does anyone believe this kid (Paiement)will have a spot in hrtfd or even a chance to the NHL, cause it w9ould be great to get a 6th rounder become a top 4 guy.
paiement was an 8th round pick

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10-18-2004, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
i know he been an NYR prospect but seriously i wonder does anyone believe this kid (Paiement)will have a spot in hrtfd or even a chance to the NHL, cause it w9ould be great to get a 6th rounder become a top 4 guy.
Here's a little logic experiment... you are the only person to give a relevant reply to this post, everyone else simply shifted attention entirely to Rawlyk. Not that I made the post for the purpose of experimentation, but it sure is funny...

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10-18-2004, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
Here's a little logic experiment... you are the only person to give a relevant reply to this post, everyone else simply shifted attention entirely to Rawlyk. Not that I made the post for the purpose of experimentation, but it sure is funny...
Actually, I and NY did talk about Paiment as well as Rawlyk. But mostly it was just rhetorical. I have no idea how a guy with his resume lasted to the 8th round. But then again, how did Nigel Dawes make it to the 5th? Or, as history, how did Rob Blake end up in the 4th? Why did Brian Rafalski go undrafted? Those scouts, they sure are wiley ones.

Don't mind me, I like being a know-it-all



As for Rawlyk, he's 6'5", weighs about 180 lbs., can't score at the AHL level, can't clear the crease at the AHL level, doesn't fight, and is perfectly designed to be a 'goalie screen' for opposing shooters.

He's the Shawn Bradley of minor league hockey.

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10-18-2004, 11:06 PM
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On Paiement:

First of all, he's an 8th rounder (not a 6th rounder) and an overager at that (March 85). It's not unusual at all for 19 year-olds in the Q to suddenly explode offensively. Giroux tripled his production at 19. Lots of Q stars never move on to the next level.

You have to wonder why he lasted so long (besides the age thing). With Petruzalek, we know exactly why he lasted until the 9th (he's a shrimp). No one seems to know with Paiement. And Lewiston was one of the heaviest scouted team in the Q last year with Picard and Bourret, so it's not likely he's a hidden gem no one knew about because he played in Kazakhistan or for the Abitibi Eskimos in Norrthern Ontario Junior A.

I doubt his skating is a problem in that he lumbers around like Rich Pilon, but an offensive defenseman has to have exceptional skating to make it in the NHL. "Skates better than Dale Purinton" just won't cut the mustard. His size is not the issue. Nor is his toughness, apparently (although he takes more obstruction penalties than "tough guy" penalties) I wonder if his hockey sense is the issue.

Frankly, I think he's a likely candidate to be the next Matt Kinch. His stats and situation are eerily similar. Both guys were passed over in their draft eligible year only to explode offensively after that( Kinch went from 31 to 83 pts). And both racked up assists by dishing the puck to some very talented scorers.

Still, congratulations to Jon. While numbers alone do not make the prospect, it's better for a prospect to be scoring than the opposite.

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10-19-2004, 03:16 AM
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It's a situation that seperates the good scouts on the good teams from the average scouts on the average teams: Finding a kid that years later everyone tries to figure out why they missed him. The good teams find those guys, the other teams find guys who become the answer to trivia questions. It'd be nice to be the former rather than the latter.

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10-19-2004, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
Here's a little logic experiment... you are the only person to give a relevant reply to this post, everyone else simply shifted attention entirely to Rawlyk. Not that I made the post for the purpose of experimentation, but it sure is funny...
Well it's not surprising because your statement about Paiement was a whole lot less "controversial" than the one you made about Rawlyk in your original post. I haven't seen Paiement play so I can't comment on him, but I have seen Rawlyk play and practice in camp last season and I wasn't particularly impressed...

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10-19-2004, 08:46 AM
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i find the argument that because he started scoring later it won't translate, to be kind of curious....

so if a guy improves his game when he's a little older, then it doesn't matter cuz he still sucks? but if he's been good all along but doesn't really improve a lot, then he's still awesome?

maybe paiement is a steal and maybe he's not, but i'd rather have a player who continues to improve after his draft years than to have a guy who's good going into the draft and never progresses beyond that point

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10-19-2004, 09:04 AM
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Obviously I haven't seen him play...

but he did last until the eigth round (from what I gather) because a) he is overage, b) his production did not begin until he got older, and thus was not really believed, and c) he is in the 'Q'. Personally, I'm looking at what he's doing this season and a defenseman that scores on average two points per game is pretty damn good, even in the 'Q'. And he's not really THAT old; he will be 20 this year, it's not like he's 22, 23 or 24 years old. I hear he's a crease-clearer and likes to hit (and has the size to go with it). I'm not dubbing him a sure-fire NHLer just yet, but you sometimes do find these gems in the later rounds and it's too early to write-off a kid who, as a defenseman, has size and is consistently putting up numbers. I like the fact that the kid shoots a lot (about 3 shots per game). That can help him get somewhere. And again, the reasons he was drafted late are moot points to me now that he followed-up the draft by improving on what he did last season.

Of interesting note: it's not like he's on a great team and benefitting from others - he is leading his team in scoring, a team that includes the #8 overall pick in this past draft, Alexandre Picard, who's only one year younger than Paiement.

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10-19-2004, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Levitate
i find the argument that because he started scoring later it won't translate, to be kind of curious....

so if a guy improves his game when he's a little older, then it doesn't matter cuz he still sucks? but if he's been good all along but doesn't really improve a lot, then he's still awesome?

maybe paiement is a steal and maybe he's not, but i'd rather have a player who continues to improve after his draft years than to have a guy who's good going into the draft and never progresses beyond that point
Unfortunately there is a lot of prejudice in professional sports when it comes to evaluating talent. That is why taller/bigger players get drafted ahead of where you think their skills would dictate and smaller more skilled players slip. It's why players who prove something at a younger age, go before those who are coming into their own later.

In many respects it becomes a matter of probabilities. If you look at the NHL, then offensive minded players in the NHL almost always show something through their late teens (the exception being Europeans who play in senior leagues), against players of their own age.

When you add in the general dearth of QMJHL offensive talent that has translated to success at the NHL level as well as the fact he wasn't drafted his first go round, and then the odds of him being an NHLer are fairly low. And that isn't taking anything other than his situation into consideration.

There are always exceptions of course...but odds are a much more comfortable "fact" to fall back on most times

Of course you only have to look at the league and see that about 1 in 30 players wasn't drafted at all and see there are flaws in the system

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10-19-2004, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
but he did last until the eigth round (from what I gather) because a) he is overage, b) his production did not begin until he got older, and thus was not really believed, and c) he is in the 'Q'. Personally, I'm looking at what he's doing this season and a defenseman that scores on average two points per game is pretty damn good, even in the 'Q'. And he's not really THAT old; he will be 20 this year, it's not like he's 22, 23 or 24 years old. I hear he's a crease-clearer and likes to hit (and has the size to go with it). I'm not dubbing him a sure-fire NHLer just yet, but you sometimes do find these gems in the later rounds and it's too early to write-off a kid who, as a defenseman, has size and is consistently putting up numbers. I like the fact that the kid shoots a lot (about 3 shots per game). That can help him get somewhere. And again, the reasons he was drafted late are moot points to me now that he followed-up the draft by improving on what he did last season.

Of interesting note: it's not like he's on a great team and benefitting from others - he is leading his team in scoring, a team that includes the #8 overall pick in this past draft, Alexandre Picard, who's only one year younger than Paiement.
I don't think that anyone's saying that we should just write off Paiement. But just the simple fact that he fell to the 8th round on a heavily drafted team makes him more suspect than prospect, and racking up points in the Q isn't going to change that. Junior numbers mean nothing. I can't take him seriously as a prospect until he proves that he can translate his game to a higher level. I just find it odd that the kid gets off to a hot start and suddenly flies up everyone's prospect lists.

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10-19-2004, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate
i find the argument that because he started scoring later it won't translate, to be kind of curious....

so if a guy improves his game when he's a little older, then it doesn't matter cuz he still sucks? but if he's been good all along but doesn't really improve a lot, then he's still awesome?

maybe paiement is a steal and maybe he's not, but i'd rather have a player who continues to improve after his draft years than to have a guy who's good going into the draft and never progresses beyond that point
I'm not saying that this is the absolute truth; I'm just saying that this is a general trend believed in scouting (and of course it's all meaningless unless you've seen a prospect play). Scoring earlier tends to mean that the player is scoring on talent. The adjustment to Juniors is not as great as the adjustment to the AHL or the NHL. A talented player will still find ways to score. There are talented players that need a longer learning curve and pull it together later, but if you draft a player like that, you are taking the risk that he'll never pull it together (re: Dave Inman). Players that score later tend to do so because they've learned to score in Juniors. They use little tricks that won't work against older players and exploit miscues that won't be there in pro leagues. So as I just said, until Paiement shows that he can translate his game to (at least) the AHL level, I view him as more suspect than prospect.

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10-19-2004, 01:14 PM
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Kodiak...

what I think racking up points in the 'Q' does is to help dispel the notion that last season was a fluke and this kid is in fact a late bloomer. He slipped because of his age, as well as the numbers he put up (or lack thereof) in years prior to last season's outburst. Again, I'm not putting him on an NHL or AHL roster just yet, but I think he may be making some scouts out there believe that he would've been worth an earlier pick with his size and offensive ability (albeit in the 'Q', but nearly two points per game isn't bad in any juniors league for a defenseman if he keep it up, and he does have more points than Picard, a #8 overall pick in 2004's draft, and a forward at that).

And what's a heavily drafted team?

Finally, you mention the points in juniors mean nothing to you...so you bascially dismiss all prospects in juniors until such time they prove themselves in the NHL? I don't understand. Perhaps I'm not reading into properly.


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10-19-2004, 01:31 PM
  #21
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Junior numbers mean nothing. I can't take him seriously as a prospect until he proves that he can translate his game to a higher level. I just find it odd that the kid gets off to a hot start and suddenly flies up everyone's prospect lists.
ehh, wtf kind of statement is that? you can't take him seriously as a prospect right now? so you're saying that you don't take any of the rangers prospects (or any prospect in general) seriously because they haven't proven their abilities in the AHL or NHL yet? it's one thing to be wary about the guy and another to completely write him off cuz he's not in the NHL or something.

he's a prospect...who really knows how good of one he is, but he's doing well in his league. people are just curious about this guy who was a late round pick and is doing very well. i dont' think he's flying up anyone's prospects lists, people are just curious.

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10-19-2004, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
Here's a little logic experiment... you are the only person to give a relevant reply to this post, everyone else simply shifted attention entirely to Rawlyk. Not that I made the post for the purpose of experimentation, but it sure is funny...

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10-20-2004, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish
Well it's not surprising because your statement about Paiement was a whole lot less "controversial" than the one you made about Rawlyk in your original post. I haven't seen Paiement play so I can't comment on him, but I have seen Rawlyk play and practice in camp last season and I wasn't particularly impressed...
Hmmm... yeah, good point!

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10-20-2004, 11:03 PM
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Johnny P puts up 3 more points vs Baie-Comeau...

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10-21-2004, 02:22 PM
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I think he will be our best defensive prospect since....













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