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Top 5 gm in the nhl in past 5 years and why

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Old
02-04-2012, 12:31 AM
  #26
Sergei Berezin
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
I tend to be forgiving for GM's who personally assembled a Cup-winning team. In three years since picking Kane 1st overall, they won a Cup.

It seems like you are disregarding everything he did before.
Is that "personally assemble a team" thing a shot at Burke? Because, Burke has a ring, and yeah, he had brought in almost all the pieces, contrary to what Leaf-haters claim.

Burke and his assistant GM Nonis also built the team that lost in the game 7 of the finals this past spring.


Tallon really didn't personally assemble that team... he got lucky. That team wouldn't of had gone anywhere if it wasn't for a little hot streak by one of their mediocre goalies that he all signed... he overpaid just about everyone, leaving the team a mess after his departure... he had to overpay for everyone due to his foolish, unprofessional mistake (once again, if that was Burke, no one would ever stop hearing about it)... Horrible with money if he's given it (Campbell, Huet... a lot of those Florida guys he signed to long term deals are tweeners at best, but mostly bottom six guys who are going to be a headache in a couples of years, if not less... I could go on all day.

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02-04-2012, 12:33 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
I'm not defending anything. The results speak for themselves. I'm sorry they don't please you.

28th overall last year with Florida -> 3rd place right now
27th overall in 2006/2007 with Chicago -> Stanley Cup in 2009/10

Burke finished 7th last during the 2008/09 season so it seems with a better team than both Tallon's 2006/07 Blackhawks and 2010/11 Panthers, he is far behind.

That 3rd place is very misleading, btw... if they even lose two games in a row, they'll drop to 9th, or 10th...

Also... they're not 3rd overall, stop posting with such an agenda.

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02-04-2012, 12:47 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Is that "personally assemble a team" thing a shot at Burke?
Yes.

Quote:
Because, Burke has a ring, and yeah, he had brought in almost all the pieces, contrary to what Leaf-haters claim.
Wrong.

Penner, McDonald, Kunitz, Getzlaf, Perry, R.Niedermayer, and Giguere were all there waiting for him in Anaheim.

He signed Selanee, Scott Niedermayer, thanks to his brother being there already, and traded the farm for Pronger. Bold moves. Real creative...

Quote:
Burke and his assistant GM Nonis also built the team that lost in the game 7 of the finals this past spring.
The plan was to build a contender and have a parade in Toronto. Good for Burke in drafting some studs. It's too bad he couldn't continue that here.

Quote:
Tallon really didn't personally assemble that team... he got lucky. That team wouldn't of had gone anywhere if it wasn't for a little hot streak by one of their mediocre goalies that he all signed... he overpaid just about everyone, leaving the team a mess after his departure... he had to overpay for everyone due to his foolish, unprofessional mistake (once again, if that was Burke, no one would ever stop hearing about it)... Horrible with money if he's given it (Campbell, Huet... a lot of those Florida guys he signed to long term deals are tweeners at best, but mostly bottom six guys who are going to be a headache in a couples of years, if not less... I could go on all day.
You lost me at "he got lucky".

Please try harder.

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02-04-2012, 12:52 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
I'm not defending anything. The results speak for themselves. I'm sorry they don't please you.

28th overall last year with Florida -> 3rd place right now
27th overall in 2006/2007 with Chicago -> Stanley Cup in 2009/10

Burke finished 7th last during the 2008/09 season so it seems with a better team than both Tallon's 2006/07 Blackhawks and 2010/11 Panthers, he is far behind.

Stop manipulating facts by selectively omitting some and highlighting others. We arent getting decieved.

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02-04-2012, 12:55 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Yes.



Wrong.

Penner, McDonald, Kunitz, Getzlaf, Perry, R.Niedermayer, and Giguere were all there waiting for him in Anaheim.

He signed Selanee, Scott Niedermayer, thanks to his brother being there already, and traded the farm for Pronger. Bold moves. Real creative...



The plan was to build a contender and have a parade in Toronto. Good for Burke in drafting some studs. It's too bad he couldn't continue that here.



You lost me at "he got lucky".

Please try harder.
Out of all the players you listed, those three were the most important pieces of that cup winning team. Without those three, no cup.

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02-04-2012, 12:58 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
That 3rd place is very misleading, btw... if they even lose two games in a row, they'll drop to 9th, or 10th...

Also... they're not 3rd overall, stop posting with such an agenda.
Let's track this since the lockout:

Bowman's Chicago franchise: 3rd last (no playoffs), 4th last (no playoffs), 11th last (no playoffs), Conference Finalist, Stanley Cup Champ (ending the longest Cup drought)


Burke's Toronto franchise: 7th last (no playoffs), 2nd last (no playoffs, or draft pick), 9th last (no playoffs, or draft pick, now longest Cup drought), TBD, TBD ...

To keep on an even-keel with Dave Tallon, despite having a better team to start the rebuild, it seems Burke is miles and miles away from the success and eventual Cup win that the Blackhawks enjoyed, with Tallon's mark ALL over it.


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02-04-2012, 01:02 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Let's track this since the lockout:

Bowman's Chicago franchise: 3rd last (no playoffs), 4th last (no playoffs), 11th last (no playoffs), Conference Finalist, Stanley Cup Champ (ending the longest Cup drought)


Burke's Toronto franchise: 7th last (no playoffs), 2nd last (no playoffs, or draft pick), 9th last (no playoffs, or draft pick, now longest Cup drought), TBD, TBD ...

To keep on an even-keel with Dave Tallon, despite having a better team to start the rebuild, it seems Burke is miles and miles away from the success and eventual Cup win that the Blackhawks enjoyed, with Tallon's mark ALL over it.

Again, this is deceptive. They had most of their young core selected by then. Burke had all the expiring NMC's and a barren prospect pool.

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02-04-2012, 01:05 AM
  #33
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Now let's move to the present day.

2010/2011 Toronto Maple Leafs - 9th last finish - $52,801,483
2010/2011 Florida Panthers - 3rd last finish - $46,738,149

2011/2012 Toronto Maple Leafs - 58pts/51GP - $63,047,032
2011/2012 Florida Panthers - 59pts/50GP - $55,024,545

Florida is already ahead despite finishing behind the Leafs last season, and with a considerably smaller budget.

Dave Tallon is a one heck of a GM. The results speak for themselves. We aren't even talking about prospect pools either, which is also incomparable, but that is just how Tallon rolls. He grows his own talent!

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02-04-2012, 01:11 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Now let's move to the present day.

2010/2011 Toronto Maple Leafs - 9th last finish - $52,801,483
2010/2011 Florida Panthers - 3rd last finish - $46,738,149

2011/2012 Toronto Maple Leafs - 58pts/51GP - $63,047,032
2011/2012 Florida Panthers - 59pts/50GP - $55,024,545

Florida is already ahead despite finishing behind the Leafs last season, and with a considerably smaller budget.

Dave Tallon is a one heck of a GM. The results speak for themselves. We aren't even talking about prospect pools either, which is also incomparable, but that is just how Tallon rolls. He grows his own talent!
1) Thats true, but the season isnt over.

2) People assume that the extra cap guarantees that the team would be better if they fully spent it. However that is just a fallacy, look at buffalo for example number 1.

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02-04-2012, 01:11 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Again, this is deceptive. They had most of their young core selected by the bolded year(s). Burke had all the expiring NMC's and a barren prospect pool.
It's not deceptive, but actually the key feature of Tallon's proven strategy. What you just walked into is precisely the reason that Dave Tallon is one of the best GM's in the league and why Burke isn't. Tallon recognizes the need to grow talent in-firm, and not just any talent; top talent.

I mean, the evidence is all there. You have to draft to win. We haven't.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&hl=en#gid=0

I'm sorry, but until Burke starts getting serious about the long-term viability of this club, he'll never be in the same tier as some of these economical GM's who build long-term contenders.

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02-04-2012, 01:13 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
It's not deceptive, but actually the key feature of Tallon's proven strategy. What you just walked into is precisely the reason that Dave Tallon is one of the best GM's in the league and why Burke isn't. Tallon recognizes the need to grow talent in-firm, and not just any talent; top talent.

I mean, the evidence is all there. You have to draft to win. We haven't.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&hl=en#gid=0

I'm sorry, but until Burke starts getting serious about the long-term viability of this club, he'll never be in the same tier as some of these economical GM's who build long-term contenders.
He's so amazing you can't even get the guy's name right. It's Dale, not Dave.

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02-04-2012, 01:16 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
1) Thats true, but the season isnt over.

2) People assume that the extra cap guarantees that the team would be better if they fully spent it. However that is just a fallacy, look at buffalo for example number 1.
The season will continue, but the fact remains. Florida is a nice franchise and Tallon is doing great things for them. Look at their prospect pool.

Extra capspace gives your team what's known as the agility to take advantage of either the free agent market and the cap situation of other teams, while accomodating the need for merit raises to ideally your homegrown players. We are not agile in the slightest right now because we've handcuffed ourselves with terrible contracts to underperforming players, so much so, that we can barely afford to re-sign a player who does in fact deserve a hefty raise.

Everyone is so impressed with the Lombardi+Franson deal, but it really isn't all that impressive. This is David Poile we are talking about.

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02-04-2012, 01:24 AM
  #38
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It's not deceptive, but actually the key feature of Tallon's proven strategy. What you just walked into is precisely the reason that Dave Tallon is one of the best GM's in the league and why Burke isn't. Tallon recognizes the need to grow talent in-firm, and not just any talent; top talent.

I mean, the evidence is all there. You have to draft to win. We haven't.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&hl=en#gid=0

I'm sorry, but until Burke starts getting serious about the long-term viability of this club, he'll never be in the same tier as some of these economical GM's who build long-term contenders.
I think you are looking at management from a very narrow-minded perspective. Drafting does not equal success. It gives you a better chance at it, yes, but a GM has to be competent in all three venues (Draft, UFA and trading) to be a winner. In my mind, Chia is the best GM in the league, and he proved it by building a contender from start to finish, through all three venues. Chia, however, didnt stress homegrown talent.

In terms of drafting, although its true that burke hasnt supplied us with top tier talent, he has done an excellent job of overflowing the cupboard in terms of second tier talent (almost all of whom are over 6'0), and this gives him the option of never having to overpay for a middle tier talent in the longterm future. That means no Leinos, Erhoffs, komisareks, armstrongs etc, which will make our team more cap friendly in the future. It gives us cap space for signing future big fish. Thats why I feel he has set us up for longterm success.

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02-04-2012, 01:30 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
The season will continue, but the fact remains. Florida is a nice franchise and Tallon is doing great things for them. Look at their prospect pool.

Extra capspace gives your team what's known as the agility to take advantage of either the free agent market and the cap situation of other teams, while accomodating the need for merit raises to ideally your homegrown players. We are not agile in the slightest right now because we've handcuffed ourselves with terrible contracts to underperforming players, so much so, that we can barely afford to re-sign a player who does in fact deserve a hefty raise.

Everyone is so impressed with the Lombardi+Franson deal, but it really isn't all that impressive. This is David Poile we are talking about.
David Poile publically admitted the we won the trade.

Im not too concerned about our agility. Connolly, Armstrongs and Lombardis contracts expire next year, so these are only short term worries. In fact, they might very well be dealt next year as rentals.

Komisarek is a long term pain, but I have the feeling that he will be moveable next year when he will average 3.25 mil payed in his last two years vs the 4.5mil cap space he will take up. If Rolston was moveable, then I am sure komisarek is too.

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02-04-2012, 01:36 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
I think you are looking at management from a very narrow-minded perspective. Drafting does not equal success. It gives you a better chance at it, yes, but a GM has to be competent in all three venues (Draft, UFA and trading) to be a winner. In my mind, Chia is the best GM in the league, and he proved it by building a contender from start to finish, through all three venues. Chia, however, didnt stress homegrown talent.

In terms of drafting, although its true that burke hasnt supplied us with top tier talent, he has done an excellent job of overflowing the cupboard in terms of second tier talent (almost all of whom are over 6'0), and this gives him the option of never having to overpay for a middle tier talent in the longterm future. That means no Leinos, Erhoffs, komisareks, armstrongs etc, which will make our team more cap friendly in the future. It gives us cap space for signing future big fish. Thats why I feel he has set us up for longterm success.
Chiarelli is graduated from Harvard with an Economics degree. I just want to point this out. Yes, he is a skilled manager and he also has a great scouting eye in his organization. He didn't stress the homegrown talent, necessarily, because it was already there. Krecji, Bergeron, Lucic, and Kessel were all on the team together at one time. People often neglect the fact that Boston did in fact "tank" to get the 5th overall selection of Phil Kessel.

Other key contributions came from the likes of Zdeno Chara, an absolute windfall of a free agent signing that Ottawa was crazy to let go of. They had great goaltending options in Tim Thomas, a UFA, and Tuukka Rask who was traded for Andrew Raycroft, a Bruins' draft pick.

You have to just generally be smart with procuring your assets as a GM, wary of the long-term forecast just as much as the short-term one as well as cap implications. There are certain "stages" of a rebuild that should be followed. Trading consecutive 1st round picks should almost never happen and if it does, it happens when you are actually competitive. You get competitive by drafting smart and signing smart. At that time, we weren't competitive in either of those respects. The Kessel trade will never allow Burke to win a Cup here. Not in the forseeable future and not while so many other teams are drafting better and signing better.

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02-04-2012, 01:44 AM
  #41
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David Poile publically admitted the we won the trade.

Im not too concerned about our agility. Connolly, Armstrongs and Lombardis contracts expire next year, so these are only short term worries. In fact, they might very well be dealt next year as rentals.

Komisarek is a long term pain, but I have the feeling that he will be moveable next year when he will average 3.25 mil payed in his last two years vs the 4.5mil cap space he will take up. If Rolston was moveable, then I am sure komisarek is too.
First of all, you have to approach the trade with the understanding of the Predators' limited budget.

When you consider the kinds of prospects (back to our key theme) Nashville had to begin the year like Ryan Ellis and Roman Josi, Cody Franson doesn't really seem to fit in to the long-term as well as those young players do, as well as re-signing either/or of Ryan Suter and captain Shea Weber.

Nashville had a few options:

1. Keep Lombardi ($3.5 deadweight), keep Franson (RFA), lose a roster spot for Ellis/Josi, lose $3.5 of limited budget to re-sign Suter/Weber

2. Dump Lombardi ($3.5 freed), lose Franson (RFA burden freed), open a roster spot for Ellis/Josi, retain $3.5 of limited budget to re-sign Suter/Weber.

For Nashville, it made sense, for Toronto it made sense. Obviously Burke and Wilson will tell you that Lombardi isn't struggling, but Nashville dodged a serious bullet with that contract.

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02-04-2012, 01:55 AM
  #42
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Burke is not getting enough credit in this thread surprisingly enough. He's easily top five. Look at what he was given when he started here three years ago and what we have now. Not to mention the pieces he put in Vancouver have them where they are right now. Or the Cup he won when he was in Anaheim.


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02-04-2012, 02:04 AM
  #43
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First of all, you have to approach the trade with the understanding of the Predators' limited budget.

When you consider the kinds of prospects (back to our key theme) Nashville had to begin the year like Ryan Ellis and Roman Josi, Cody Franson doesn't really seem to fit in to the long-term as well as those young players do, as well as re-signing either/or of Ryan Suter and captain Shea Weber.

Nashville had a few options:

1. Keep Lombardi ($3.5 deadweight), keep Franson (RFA), lose a roster spot for Ellis/Josi, lose $3.5 of limited budget to re-sign Suter/Weber

2. Dump Lombardi ($3.5 freed), lose Franson (RFA burden freed), open a roster spot for Ellis/Josi, retain $3.5 of limited budget to re-sign Suter/Weber.

For Nashville, it made sense, for Toronto it made sense. Obviously Burke and Wilson will tell you that Lombardi isn't struggling, but Nashville dodged a serious bullet with that contract.
Regardless, Poile admitted he lost the trade. If he admits it, I believe him.

p.s. you forgot to mention that burke dumped lebda in the process.

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02-04-2012, 02:15 AM
  #44
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Chiarelli is graduated from Harvard with an Economics degree. I just want to point this out. Yes, he is a skilled manager and he also has a great scouting eye in his organization. He didn't stress the homegrown talent, necessarily, because it was already there. Krecji, Bergeron, Lucic, and Kessel were all on the team together at one time. People often neglect the fact that Boston did in fact "tank" to get the 5th overall selection of Phil Kessel.

Other key contributions came from the likes of Zdeno Chara, an absolute windfall of a free agent signing that Ottawa was crazy to let go of. They had great goaltending options in Tim Thomas, a UFA, and Tuukka Rask who was traded for Andrew Raycroft, a Bruins' draft pick.

You have to just generally be smart with procuring your assets as a GM, wary of the long-term forecast just as much as the short-term one as well as cap implications. There are certain "stages" of a rebuild that should be followed. Trading consecutive 1st round picks should almost never happen and if it does, it happens when you are actually competitive. You get competitive by drafting smart and signing smart. At that time, we weren't competitive in either of those respects. The Kessel trade will never allow Burke to win a Cup here. Not in the forseeable future and not while so many other teams are drafting better and signing better.
I dont agree with this part of your post.
1)You cant say with any sort of certainty that the kessel trade will prevent burke of a cup here. There is no evidence in the world that can support such a claim.
2) You cant assess burke's drafting yet. His oldest pick is 21 years old.

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02-04-2012, 07:12 AM
  #45
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The GM's of the last five teams that won the cup.
Makes no sense. One of them never made a single move to his roster yet won the Cup.

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02-04-2012, 07:15 AM
  #46
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Yes.



Wrong.

Penner, McDonald, Kunitz, Getzlaf, Perry, R.Niedermayer, and Giguere were all there waiting for him in Anaheim.

He signed Selanee, Scott Niedermayer, thanks to his brother being there already, and traded the farm for Pronger. Bold moves. Real creative...



The plan was to build a contender and have a parade in Toronto. Good for Burke in drafting some studs. It's too bad he couldn't continue that here.



You lost me at "he got lucky".

Please try harder.


So does Chiarelli get any credit for Boston winning the Cup?

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02-04-2012, 09:12 AM
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The general question of who is the best or quality GM, needs to define criteria of what makes a best GM and then measure teams against it else people will get sucked into the nuances of one trade or a pool of prospects.

Things like
1. How consistently does the team make the playoff (or overchieves expectations) Wings vs NYI
2. How quick the GM identifies and addresses weaknesses (i.e goaltending, truculnce, #1C or length of rebuild) Tallon vs Snow
3. How efficiently the GM manages cap space (with a bonus for those who are competitive spending under cap) Poille vs Howson
4. Demonstrate an ability to attract and/or retain quality talent that achieves/overachieves expectations with reasonable length and salaried of contracts Chiarelli vs Snow
Everyone made a mistake with a contract here but Chia and Burke both try to avoid long decade like contracts, though Burke has overspent on Komisarek and gave him a horrid No movement clause. While Savard/Chara don't hurt the Bruins
5. The quality, quantity and appropriateness of prospects to ensure future team success Murray/Tallon/Snow/Tambellini??? vs Wilson

Then you could weight them on which is most important and rank them if so inclined.
I think people focus on one aspect - like prospects or playoff record.

For me a successful GM is something like 50% playoff and playoff success and 25% trading/signing overachieving talent and 25% building a prospect pool.

I think Burke excels at building the prospect pool and setting the team up to win in the future. His draft success as a leaf is too early to judge. He has had mixed success on trading/signing UFA talent (Lupul or Liles vs Komisarek or Lebda). And his leaf playoff record speaks for itself - the fact that he could not turn the team into a playoff contender (say like Tallon) is not a positive so perhaps he is performing average or slightly below average here.

When the team gets some playoff success then Burke starts looking better but lets not get the cart before the horse.

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02-04-2012, 09:18 AM
  #48
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1. Peter Chiarelli
2. David Poile
3. Dale Tallon
4. Ray Shero
5. Ken Holland

I feel no need to get long-winded and break down the greatness of all these managers. Rather, it will suffice to say that these men are economical in their approach to adding real value to their organization. All are Cup-winners save for David Poile, GM of the cap floor Nashville Predators, and all by no surprise have an incredibly strong drafting record.
I like it....These 5 guys are hard to argue with but I give Peter Chiarelli the top dog over the last five years. He built a great team in Boston and they will continue to be great for some time. I think they have a real shot at repeating as Cup Champs. Poile is brilliant given his resources..brilliant. Tallon in Chi-town then in FLA....brilliant. Shero continues to impress even without the best player in the world on the sidelines and Holland is Holland....what can you say about the Detroit Red Wings, perennial powerhouses.

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02-04-2012, 09:20 AM
  #49
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of course he get's credit for the Bruins Cup win. he has been in Boston since 06, which means he likely has fingerprints on the bruins model. Unlike Burke in Anaheim.
Teemu was signing in Anaheim no matter what and same goes for Scotty and really the only issue Prongs with how much he'd have to give up. but you still have to give Burke some credit for the win.

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02-04-2012, 09:35 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post
of course he get's credit for the Bruins Cup win. he has been in Boston since 06, which means he likely has fingerprints on the bruins model. Unlike Burke in Anaheim.
Teemu was signing in Anaheim no matter what and same goes for Scotty and really the only issue Prongs with how much he'd have to give up. but you still have to give Burke some credit for the win.
Really? Lucic, Marchand, Krejci, Bergeron, Chara and Thomas were all in place BEFORE Chiarelli walked through the door. That's the entire core of his Cup winning team, save maybe Horton. I'd agree he's done a good job of setting them up for long term success but did he play a bigger role in Boston's Cup than Burke did in Anaheim's? Burke's roster changed by 75% including moving his top 5 forwards, changing his entire defense corps and adding three 25+ minute per night d-men and their leading scorer. If Burke can add core pieces to a championship and not get credit, how does someone adding periphery pieces get credit?

Let's not even get started on Shero who had the following when he walked in the door:

Crosby
Malkin
Fleury
Gonchar
Letang
Goligoski
Whitney
Orpik
Talbot
Scuderi

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