HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract? All Bryz Discussion Here. Part Three

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-09-2012, 04:32 PM
  #401
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 44,611
vCash: 500
We should start a vBookie event to see how long it takes before people turn that into an enormous, divisive locker room dispute.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 04:33 PM
  #402
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,307
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We should start a vBookie event to see how long it takes before people turn that into an enormous, divisive locker room dispute.
Ha, I don't think that would happen in this case. I think everyone on the team is in the same boat. Bryz included...

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 04:43 PM
  #403
hckyplayer8
He's Gone!
 
hckyplayer8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chicken Capital,PA
Country: United States
Posts: 3,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
lol

I wonder if that is true....that he said that.

hckyplayer8 is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 04:56 PM
  #404
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
Country: England
Posts: 14,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
now was it real laughter or nervous laughter, like it might be true..

haha thats the REAL joke

Flyerfan4life is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 05:03 PM
  #405
funghoul
retardo montalbon
 
funghoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upper drugs
Country: United States
Posts: 1,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Not everybody goes "Oh hes been really good in the past and really good on other teams, so its alright if he is so terrible this year."

Honestly, what has he done THIS YEAR that makes you want to defend the guy so much?
His record is over 500 and he's been better more than he's sucked. your just pissed cause you wanted that hall of famer vokoun

funghoul is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 05:20 PM
  #406
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
So you haven't said much here except that Bryz has been getting beat low and has had lots of deflections go by him earlier in the year. I can agree with that. But Bob gets beat high all the time, and teams certainly know that. Plus, you call it "muddying the waters" when I mention the goalie stats split by opposing team record but really what you mean is that those particular numbers don't suit your argument. If they were "muddying the waters" I doubt NHL.com would be so kind to provide them. Apparently, somebody thinks they have meaning.

That is why numbers shouldn't be your primary evidence of anything when it comes to evaluating a player's impact on the game, though. Because they have meaning, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient to evaluate a player's impact on the ice.
Bob's getting beat at a lower rate than Bryz is, which, at the end of the day, is what matters. Every goalie has weaknesses.

No, splitting by team records tells me nothing about how good an offensive team the opponent is. Ultimately, goalies are judged by how well they stop the puck, so a good offensive team is going to challenge them at their position more than a weak offensive team (reference Michael Leighton/Brian Boucher before getting lit up by Chicago in the Cup Finals).

As noted, TB is a very good offensive team... but a not so good team. You're more likely to beat 'em, but they're also more likely to hang a goal or two on you than the majority of the league because they have some good scorers... and play crappy D themselves.

Quote:
So you are basically saying that different teams don't take different kinds of shots?
Did I say that? And, no, there isn't significant variance between teams in the types of shots goalies are going to face in large samples. They are hockey players playing hockey, all with pretty much the same training, knowledge, etc. working for 'em.

Quote:
Spare me the straw-man. You cannot quantitatively measure performance and use it to conclude that player X helped his team more than player Y. That is what I said. In order to determine who helps the team more, you need to watch the games. By your logic, you can tell me who the better player is if I give you two lines of advanced stats. I say that that is absurd.
Watching the game certainly matters, and their are holes in advanced stats... which is why you look at a bunch of 'em, not just one. For example, last year Zherdev had some absurd goal scoring rates, which made it look like he was an offensive dynamo... however, the Flyers as a team scored less when he was on the ice. Those two facts tell me a lot about what Zherdev was doing out there, and also confirm some primary criticisms of his game.

Quote:
I am biased against statistics because I have a degree in Mathematics. I understand the limitations of statistics and the assumptions that need to be made to make them work. "Advanced" stats like CORSI or GVT try to account for some extra variables (some of which cannot be objectively measured, such as whether or not a puck was "directed towards the net", or assuming that an assist is "worth" 1.5 goals). These stats have flaws. They are not worthless, mind you, but they aren't, in and of themselves, indicative of anything about a player's value to his team.
Do you also understand the limitations of human observation? People's brains are full of subjective biases that skew how they perceive what is taking place before their eyes. Certain events jump out, while others are subdued.

A good example is Claude Giroux right now. His stats last year showed an alarming jump in goals against compared to his more defensively able linemate, Jeff Carter. Carter had a strong GAON/60, and given how much time the two spent together it was odd that Giroux's was noticeably higher. Fast forward to this season with Giroux playing with Jagr and Hartnell, and he's getting lit up the other direction.

If the stats can begin to paint a picture of the overall strengths and weaknesses in a players game, then they do go a long way towards painting a picture of a player's value. Hartnell is a great example, where a lot of his peripheral stats have been strong over the years, despite the critiques of him.

Quote:
A vast oversimplification, but I won't take much umbrage with this...
Sort of on purpose.

Quote:
So? Bob is 0-4 against the top 3rd of the league, but since he lost while giving up less goals, he is better? Again, you are looking purely at numbers and not at the gtames themselves. A Bryzgalov loss with a final score of 7-6 against Carolina and a Bobrovsky shutout against Boston wouldn't necessarily mean Bob was better than Bryz was. It is an extreme example. but it still is true. You pimp the stats that agree with your argument, and ignore those that do not. I ignore them entirely when they don't agree with my eyes. My eyes tell me that Bryzgalov is a better goalie than Bob. But that is just my opinion. You are free to have your own.
And that right there isn't very smart. Your eyes lie. You see what you want to see, and ignore the things that you don't want to see... or don't remember. There's a whole host of literature on the fallibility of human observation. A friend of mine's brother had a law professor stage a crime on the first day of law school specifically to show how terrible eye witness testimony is.

And, yes, a goalie -- whose only job is to keep pucks out of the net -- giving up less goals, is doing a better job. Hockey is not a sport of aesthetics, it's a sport of simple results. Tim Thomas looks hideous playing goal, which is why it took him so damn long to break into the NHL... but the man just *ing stops the puck. Bryz can look as good as he wants in net, but if he ain't stopping the puck, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
No, it is about empirical results not being a good predictor of future performance because those empirical results are flawed and only part of the story.
...that's about as self-serving as it gets. Empirical results are the best predictor of future performance. Lemme ask you something. If I made you pick between Jody Shelley and a healthy Sidney Crosby having a 100 point season next year, who would you pick and why? And don't say it's because of your observation of Crosby... you've observed Crosby empirically scoring a lot of goals.

Empirical results are WHY we should expect Bryz to get his crap together... Bob's performance this year has been right on par with his empirical results from a year ago (in short, he's played pretty much as expected... shocking, I know). Bryz... hasn't. Empirical results are also why we can predict career arcs and a host of other factors that probability and statistics can provide good modeling for.

Quote:
The Gaborik goal was bad but there weren't any other "bad" goals against him. Del Zotto had a one timer from inside the circle near the hash. That is not a bad goal simply because it beat Bryz five hole. Dubinsky's goal was from the same spot. Can't blame the goalie on shots from there that go in.
Those weren't very good goals for a NHL goalie to give up. Neither were goods shots, and the Dubinsky one in particular is very stoppable.

Jester is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 05:40 PM
  #407
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
In considering this argument further, it is actually kind of fascinating (especially for a math major). By tossing out empirical data, the claim is that Bryz is better simply as a matter of faith.

It's an argument for the religion of Bryz.

Jester is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 06:26 PM
  #408
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,631
vCash: 500
Bob or Bryz, it doesn't matter. The team defense has been too poor for any goalie to have sustained success. Bob has played better in his opportunities than Bryz, but if he had been the starter since day one I think he'd be at a sub .910 SV % as well.

Bryz has proven to be a top 8-12 goalie in the league, and he'll get back there. There's no way that this is his true talent. No team could hide him from the league for that long, let alone a team like the Coyotes. I'm still holding out hope that he'll find himself before the playoffs.

Protest is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 06:26 PM
  #409
hckyplayer8
He's Gone!
 
hckyplayer8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chicken Capital,PA
Country: United States
Posts: 3,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
His record is over 500 and he's been better more than he's sucked. your just pissed cause you wanted that hall of famer vokoun
When did I say that? I didn't want a goalie. I would have stuck with BOB and went after a D.

His record is only decent because the offense has bailed him out so much.

Now the offense isn't bailing him out with 4+ goals a night and look what is happening.

hckyplayer8 is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 06:28 PM
  #410
gto64dr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 357
vCash: 500
You've got to be kidding me

All this BS about Bryz's past stats. Whatever he had, just watch him play, he doesn't have it now for whatever reason. Talk about adapting a team to fit him! Your kidding, right? He's paid to stop the puck and if he can't do it, we don't need him.

Time to suck it up or lose the job.

I say he's already lost it, start Bob.

gto64dr is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 06:44 PM
  #411
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Bob or Bryz, it doesn't matter. The team defense has been too poor for any goalie to have sustained success. Bob has played better in his opportunities than Bryz, but if he had been the starter since day one I think he'd be at a sub .910 SV % as well.

Bryz has proven to be a top 8-12 goalie in the league, and he'll get back there. There's no way that this is his true talent. No team could hide him from the league for that long, let alone a team like the Coyotes. I'm still holding out hope that he'll find himself before the playoffs.
Team defense is a bit of a cop out. This team isn't great defensively, but it is not the reason Bryz has a .900 SVPCT. Bryz has a .900 SVPCT on the merit of his own play. The difference between a .915 and his .900 right now is 19-20 saves. Some of those are simply rotten luck... he's had some stupendously awful luck deflection goals go past him. However, his propensity to let pucks slide through him because he isn't strong down low this year (for whatever reason -- and now maybe we know why the PHX guys called him out on that in the fall) would easily get him up to a decent number no problem.

He simply hasn't played well, and it isn't a matter of team defense or not team defense... team defense includes the goalie. Moreover, every sane fan knew our skater's defense was going to take a hit given the paucity of defensive talent among our forwards. But, seriously, how many "ugh" goals has he let slide through him this year? It's a regular occurrence.

There also isn't a strong correlation between sound defensive teams and movement of SVPCT. Goalies put up strong SVPCT numbers on crappy defensive teams with regularity, and similarly put up bad numbers on very good defensive teams. Goalies own that stat (unlike GAA) far more than people really want to admit for whatever reason.

The shame of it is that given how great everything else has gone (outside of Pronger's situation), this team would be easily leading the East if Bryz was playing as expected.

Jester is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 07:47 PM
  #412
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Team defense is a bit of a cop out. This team isn't great defensively, but it is not the reason Bryz has a .900 SVPCT. Bryz has a .900 SVPCT on the merit of his own play. The difference between a .915 and his .900 right now is 19-20 saves. Some of those are simply rotten luck... he's had some stupendously awful luck deflection goals go past him. However, his propensity to let pucks slide through him because he isn't strong down low this year (for whatever reason -- and now maybe we know why the PHX guys called him out on that in the fall) would easily get him up to a decent number no problem.

He simply hasn't played well, and it isn't a matter of team defense or not team defense... team defense includes the goalie. Moreover, every sane fan knew our skater's defense was going to take a hit given the paucity of defensive talent among our forwards. But, seriously, how many "ugh" goals has he let slide through him this year? It's a regular occurrence.

There also isn't a strong correlation between sound defensive teams and movement of SVPCT. Goalies put up strong SVPCT numbers on crappy defensive teams with regularity, and similarly put up bad numbers on very good defensive teams. Goalies own that stat (unlike GAA) far more than people really want to admit for whatever reason.

The shame of it is that given how great everything else has gone (outside of Pronger's situation), this team would be easily leading the East if Bryz was playing as expected.
It's not a cop out, it's the truth. I'm in no way absolving Bryz, he has not been good. Even with this defense I'd expect him to be around a .910 SV %.

I've bolded the reasons why he has had a sub .900 SV%.

Protest is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 09:35 PM
  #413
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 7,239
vCash: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Team defense is a bit of a cop out. This team isn't great defensively, but it is not the reason Bryz has a .900 SVPCT. Bryz has a .900 SVPCT on the merit of his own play. The difference between a .915 and his .900 right now is 19-20 saves. Some of those are simply rotten luck... he's had some stupendously awful luck deflection goals go past him. However, his propensity to let pucks slide through him because he isn't strong down low this year (for whatever reason -- and now maybe we know why the PHX guys called him out on that in the fall) would easily get him up to a decent number no problem.

He simply hasn't played well, and it isn't a matter of team defense or not team defense... team defense includes the goalie. Moreover, every sane fan knew our skater's defense was going to take a hit given the paucity of defensive talent among our forwards. But, seriously, how many "ugh" goals has he let slide through him this year? It's a regular occurrence.

There also isn't a strong correlation between sound defensive teams and movement of SVPCT. Goalies put up strong SVPCT numbers on crappy defensive teams with regularity, and similarly put up bad numbers on very good defensive teams. Goalies own that stat (unlike GAA) far more than people really want to admit for whatever reason.

The shame of it is that given how great everything else has gone (outside of Pronger's situation), this team would be easily leading the East if Bryz was playing as expected.
It is team defense. And yes it includes the goalie. The goalies have been bad, the back checkers have been bad, and the defense has been terrible. Team defense is absolutely not a cop out, it's the main reason.

sobrien is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 10:12 PM
  #414
funghoul
retardo montalbon
 
funghoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upper drugs
Country: United States
Posts: 1,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
It is team defense. And yes it includes the goalie. The goalies have been bad, the back checkers have been bad, and the defense has been terrible. Team defense is absolutely not a cop out, it's the main reason.
yea. our defense sucks. but your arguing with empirical math majors. some pretty heady stuff to try and even attempt to conquer. i just miss jason smith. one year wonder. oh well.

funghoul is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 10:40 PM
  #415
funghoul
retardo montalbon
 
funghoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upper drugs
Country: United States
Posts: 1,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
In considering this argument further, it is actually kind of fascinating (especially for a math major). By tossing out empirical data, the claim is that Bryz is better simply as a matter of faith.

It's an argument for the religion of Bryz.
You have no faith in Bryz? Is it any more rediculous to have faith in Bryz opposed to the team as a whole? faith should be reserved for the invisible. Bryzgalov is a REAL NHL goalie who has been great for the majority of his career up until he gets here. adjustment to pressure, money, maybe? or maybe we suck as a team. maybe run and gun doesnt quite work at this point in time so far after the lockout now that the refs reel things in a little more and not only do we take insane risks and compromise dfense for offense but we take crap penalties while on the offensive which to me is inexcusable at the rate we take them. our coverage and patience blows and we send defenseman in low, out of position not to execute a set play but to blindly throw passes at a crowded net that too many times are turned over and create an exhausting situation for all of our players to scramble back into some semblance of position. This aint the 80's. i do think we need to make a big trade tho.

funghoul is offline  
Old
02-09-2012, 11:48 PM
  #416
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,778
vCash: 500
Other than to come in here and say how disappointed I am with Bacashihua's play for the Flyers this year, I'd like to offer a counter-argument to one of Jester's points. You note that eyewitness accounts are famously flawed, as demonstrated over and over in the courts. However, watching a sporting event isn't the same thing per se: there are 2 million replays from 30 different angles on practically every play, and entire games are available to be slowed down to a frame a second for discussion and dissection.

Of course, there is absolute bias -- the likes of which we all see in the Bryz/Bob, Coke/Pepsi, Betty/Veronica, Edward/Jacooooooooouuugghh!, I can't even type that jokingly -- but the level of analysis and repetition allows most fans to see what actually happened on a play as important as a goal.

Other than that, I completely agree with you.

BernieParent is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 02:05 AM
  #417
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 33,816
vCash: 0
you can throw all those numbers out there and I still dont care. i care more about the type of goals that Bob and Bryz are allowing. .916 is nice and all but does it matter if Bryzgalov is giving up ball kicking goals to Gaborik after his team battled back TWICE to tie the game.
Yeah every goalie gives up bad goals. But its how many you give up and how you respond to them is more important then those nice shiny numbers that are being posted about Bryzgalov since the WC

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 08:12 AM
  #418
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,901
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
yea. our defense sucks. but your arguing with empirical math majors. some pretty heady stuff to try and even attempt to conquer.
Ahhhhh I got a nice laugh out of this one.

JXC is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 08:16 AM
  #419
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,901
vCash: 500
Replays don't matter. There are people here who watched Steve Stamkos score from the doorstep off a cross ice feed on a Lightning power play and said: "Bryz didn't even try!"

It doesn't matter how many times one looks at something if one isn't objective in the first place and isn't looking for truth but instead is looking to project their bias (and in this case: envy) onto the event.


Last edited by JXC: 02-10-2012 at 08:27 AM.
JXC is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 09:10 AM
  #420
Bernie Parent 1974
Registered User
 
Bernie Parent 1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 3,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I asked why you are not responding to his commentary.
because he seems to be comparing our two goalies, to see who is 'better' ... I don't care who the #1 is.

whoever is in net, I evaluate them equally, i have no dog in the fight.

that, and the fact that xifentoozlerix, has done a more than adequate job :

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=396

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
the 2011-12 Eastern Conference standings ....
they are 5th overall in the entire NHL


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 02-10-2012 at 09:32 AM.
Bernie Parent 1974 is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 09:21 AM
  #421
Bernie Parent 1974
Registered User
 
Bernie Parent 1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 3,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Not everybody goes "Oh hes been really good in the past and really good on other teams, so its alright if he is so terrible this year."
i never said that. ever.

i said he got off to a poor start this year, deserved to be benched for the WC, and has been noticeably better since. period.

as for stats and facts: if people want to ignore 354 games worth of stats, then permit others to ignore 26.

as for being terrible this year .... he had terrible numbers early in the year, and since the WC has been very good, and better than Bob over their last 8 games

Bernie Parent 1974 is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 09:41 AM
  #422
Tripod
Registered User
 
Tripod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i never said that. ever.

i said he got off to a poor start this year, deserved to be benched for the WC, and has been noticeably better since. period.

as for stats and facts: if people want to ignore 354 games worth of stats, then permit others to ignore 26.

as for being terrible this year .... he had terrible numbers early in the year, and since the WC has been very good, and better than Bob over their last 8 games
agreed!!! Bad year so far, BUT last 8 games he has given up 1 goal or less in 6 of them. He has definately been playing better. Not sure why all the haters refuse to even look at that. Instead, they want to disect the bad games or how he sucks in a shootout despite getting his second shutout of the season.(2 more than any other Flyer goalie the past 2 years).

Tripod is online now  
Old
02-10-2012, 10:28 AM
  #423
Go For It
Registered User
 
Go For It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Replays don't matter. There are people here who watched Steve Stamkos score from the doorstep off a cross ice feed on a Lightning power play and said: "Bryz didn't even try!"

It doesn't matter how many times one looks at something if one isn't objective in the first place and isn't looking for truth but instead is looking to project their bias (and in this case: envy) onto the event.



Go For It is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 10:32 AM
  #424
Broad Street Elite
Registered User
 
Broad Street Elite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,461
vCash: 500
Quote:
To be honest, I feel right now, during the shootout, itís like a soccer net behind me
http://www.thestar.com/sports/articl...bo-s-24-7?bn=1

Broad Street Elite is offline  
Old
02-10-2012, 12:52 PM
  #425
Bernie Parent 1974
Registered User
 
Bernie Parent 1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 3,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Quote:
"To be honest, I feel right now, during the shootout, itís like a soccer net behind me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamcanadian23 View Post
As per his translator on Twitter, Bobrovsky was unsatisfied with his performance

Although it wasn't his greatest game, it's nice to see the goaltender admit fault when he makes a mistake. I think it's this kind of thing that endears him to most fans, myself included.
that's all Bryz was doing, too. admitting fault. Endearing. I'm sure that's why Broad Street Elite posted it ....

Bernie Parent 1974 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.