HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Trading Deadline 2012 Discussion (All Habs related credible rumors/trade talk here)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-03-2012, 12:51 PM
  #151
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Gun View Post
he won't be traded, he's a smurf and over paid at that, he fit's right in
Correct statement.

But it doesn't make him a bad player either.

Mrb1p is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 12:52 PM
  #152
habs03
Subban #Thoroughbred
 
habs03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,671
vCash: 500
how overpiad is Gionta, 500k?

habs03 is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 12:53 PM
  #153
llamateizer
Registered User
 
llamateizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Country:
Posts: 5,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
That's actually 2 years. And it's not like he's getting younger. But if you are right, and he is seen that way, there HAS to be a lineup filled of interested teams right? Would love to see that.
I know
But Gionta is a hardworking player.
In montreal we have him and Gorges


We need more of him. He has some talent.
Darche is a hardworking player with limited talent


OT: Ryan Smyth will be the the most wanted player at trade deadline!
seems the rangers are interested in him

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/NHL-sc...115526121.html
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...-york-rangers/

llamateizer is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 12:58 PM
  #154
Halifaxhab*
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
how overpiad is Gionta, 500k?
exactly. Find another player who has scored 20+ goals in each of his 8 first seasons (not many were full seasons either) and tell me how many make 3.5M?

Halifaxhab* is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:01 PM
  #155
11Goat11
Inside her
 
11Goat11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,761
vCash: 500
I have no doubt they get at least a 2nd rounder for him, or at least a 3rd and a prospect. The guy is a proven playoff performer, great PKer and shot blocker, I am sure there will be several teams bidding for his services. Teams always overpay at the deadline because they have to outbid other teams.

11Goat11 is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:02 PM
  #156
Mrb1p
Registered User
 
Mrb1p's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Citizen of the world
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,171
vCash: 500
For you, Gio is a 30-60 guy. Its your opinion i respect it.
So i'll base my argument on that.

If you look at last year 30-60 guys.

You have Backes who does 4.5 and his 10 times more valuable.
Matt moulson has 3.1 in salary.
Lucic has 4.
Dustin Brown has 3.1
Franzen has 3.9
Stewart has 3.
Eriksson has 4.2
Bourque has 3.33
David jones has 2.5
Horton Does 4
Cole 4.5
Burrows has 2
cleary has 2.8
Hartnell has 4.2
Clowe has 3.6

Now what ?

Mrb1p is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:02 PM
  #157
larek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seb View Post
We talk a lot about AK, Gill, Moen and Campoli being traded before the trade deadline and Gomez being burried in the AHL/bought out, but what about Gionta?

He is a gritty and clutch player, big heart, loved by everyone. Consistent 20 goals scorer. But he is small and has a cap hit of 5M$ for the next 2 years, while only being a 45pts player.

Also, this year, I haven't seen much of the leadership he was supposed to bring.

Gionta has value and would most likely fetch an interesting return, unlike the players I've listed above. What do you guys think?
definately when he is healthy again- but i think the 5 mill a season isnt going to spark much interest- much rather have Cole as Captain not sold on gionta a s a captain -way overpaid of course

larek is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:03 PM
  #158
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
how overpiad is Gionta, 500k?
Lets put it this way. To get a player equivalent to Gionta you'd have to at least hand out an Erik Cole level contract. Given that he has only 2 years left on his deal rather than the 4 Cole got, any outside replacement player would make almost as much on the cap for a longer term. So he's about right for a new UFA player. Because this tends to be the most overpaid class of player relative to value (because all you give up to get them is money) he is relatively overpaid compare to league average by say 1-2 million. Other players of a similar profile make less but you'd never get other teams to give them up because of their good value and you'd never get them to sign as a UFA for that total because they'd get much better offers elsewhere. Overpaid, like many things, has a context to it and doesn't exist as a Platonic ideal.

Gionta is a really good tough minutes winger (can play a solid defensive matchup and come out ahead of the game) and probably the best guy in the lineup to help Plekanec in the shutdown role, although Cole probably could do about as well with more of a bias towards offense than defense. This has good value even if he isn't scoring at a massive rate. So Gionta is worth keeping if you're planning on doing a quick retool and competing for the playoffs next season.

If you're planning a major rebuild and don't want to compete next year but instead rack up assets for the future, this off season it would be wise to move him because he is relatively old and could net some return for you. With a lot of things this off season what is and is not a good move depends mostly on what the new long term strategy is.

Talks to Goalposts is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:07 PM
  #159
The Russian General
Força Portugal
 
The Russian General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MTL
Posts: 11,854
vCash: 500
So you guys want an AHL team next year right? This team is not as bad as the standings indicate.

The Russian General is online now  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:07 PM
  #160
larek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Lets put it this way. To get a player equivalent to Gionta you'd have to at least hand out an Erik Cole level contract. Given that he has only 2 years left on his deal rather than the 4 Cole got, any outside replacement player would make almost as much on the cap for a longer term. So he's about right for a new UFA player. Because this tends to be the most overpaid class of player relative to value (because all you give up to get them is money) he is relatively overpaid compare to league average by say 1-1.5 million.

Gionta is a really good tough minutes winger (can play a solid defensive matchup and come out ahead of the game) and probably the best guy in the lineup to help Plekanec in the shutdown role, although Cole probably could do about as well with more of a bias towards offense than defense. This has good value even if he isn't scoring at a massive rate. So Gionta is worth keeping if you're planning on doing a quick retool and competing for the playoffs next season.

If you're planning a major rebuild and don't want to compete next year but instead rack up assets for the future, this off season it would be wise to move him because he is relatively old and could net some return for you. With a lot of things this off season what is and is not a good move depends mostly on what the new long term strategy is.
gionta now is a 2-5 to 3 mill player at best- he was 4 million per when he was a better player he isnt near that anymore

larek is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:08 PM
  #161
larek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
So you guys want an AHL team next year right? This team is not as bad as the standings indicate.
its not good enough- and hasnt been good enough for a long time-
not for me

larek is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:09 PM
  #162
yianik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,888
vCash: 500
This is the absolute best time to be a seller and worst time to be a buyer in the whole year. Gill for a 2nd could happen.

yianik is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:13 PM
  #163
The Russian General
Força Portugal
 
The Russian General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MTL
Posts: 11,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by larek View Post
its not good enough- and hasnt been good enough for a long time-
not for me
It's gonna suck even more if you get rid of all "overpaid" veterans. Really, for some of you here, cap space is more valuable than a 30 goal scorer. You won't won the Cup with cap space. And while you need some to have some flexibility to manage your assets, Gionta is the least of our problems.

The Russian General is online now  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:14 PM
  #164
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by larek View Post
gionta now is a 2-5 to 3 mill player at best- he was 4 million per when he was a better player he isnt near that anymore
3 million gets you a good third line player in the current UFA market (see Ward, Joel and Bergenhiem, Sean). Are suggesting that's what Gionta is now? Remember that what guys got on contracts in previous years doesn't reflect where the current market is.

Talks to Goalposts is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:17 PM
  #165
larek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
It's gonna suck even more if you get rid of all "overpaid" veterans. Really, for some of you here, cap space is more valuable than a 30 goal scorer. You won't won the Cup with cap space. And while you need some to have some flexibility to manage your assets, Gionta is the least of our problems.
sometimes you gotta suck to get better

larek is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:18 PM
  #166
larek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
3 million gets you a good third line player in the current UFA market (see Ward, Joel and Bergenhiem, Sean). Are suggesting that's what Gionta is now? Remember that what guys got on contracts in previous years doesn't reflect where the current market is.
yes thats what im suggesting- another overrated smaller player- there was nobody out there that would have handed him 5 mill a season for 5 years? thats insane- that was an insane summer by an insane gm amd really was the begiining of the end

larek is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:36 PM
  #167
beowulf
Poster of the Year!
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,467
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
Thanks man! I don't even have to respond.

And yes! Big difference between him and Gionta. I really think Plekanec is a top30 scorer in this league and I like the contract he signed with us. And again, Gionta doesn't hurt this team but I still think that at 5M we could get another player that address our needs better.

And what is this stat? 30 goals in 87 games? Playoffs and Regular Season are two different things.
I love the guy, brings a lot to the team, but a top 30 scorer? He has never even averaged a point per game. Maybe one career year but not on a regular basis.

beowulf is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 01:37 PM
  #168
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by larek View Post
yes thats what im suggesting- another overrated smaller player- there was nobody out there that would have handed him 5 mill a season for 5 years? thats insane- that was an insane summer by an insane gm amd really was the begiining of the end
The market has changed since Gionta got his contract. They payed top dollar for him then to get him, now its about the going rate.

Unless you are Chicago and have so much internal talent you don't have enough space to keep them all the main use for cap space is to add new "overpaid" players. Underpaid players cost assets to get whereas you can use capspace to add either UFA's (who cost the most of players to get) or players whose salaries are more than what their team wants to pay (who can be acquired as salary dumps.

Fairly paid or underpaid players are only availible from your own drafting/development/prospect acquistion/asset trading. Most teams run out of those kinds of players far below the cap ceiling. Then its a matter of getting the best "overpaid" players with the remainder of your budget.

Talks to Goalposts is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:03 PM
  #169
swimmer77
What's an ROW?
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,385
vCash: 500
I have no idea what return Gill could bring. Too many variables? His cap hit isn't exactly a bargain. He's a d-man and very one dimensional so I don't know what other teams' needs are for that type of d-man or just other needs in addition to a specialty type d-man. Who is comparable to Gill and cheaper? Hannan?

A team like Pittsburgh already ranks up there in the PK. Are teams already ranked in the top 10 PK interested? Then a team that is ranked low like Washington actually has a better home ranking PK than Montreal. So is it really personnel that's the problem there? Toronto doesn't remind me of a trading partner and their PK is dreadful. Philly maybe is looking at something more longterm for Pronger than a temporary solution and maybe more of a puck mover like Pronger.

His cumulative + / - is about minus thirty something as a Hab. Realizing that stat has it's own quirks there is one thing very common to the three years Gill has been a Hab - he has always been at the bottom of fulltime Hab plus / minus rankings. Always.

IDK if I'm a GM I'm looking at a more well rounded d-man for the playoffs just in case one of my top 4 goes down.

swimmer77 is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:04 PM
  #170
habs03
Subban #Thoroughbred
 
habs03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
For you, Gio is a 30-60 guy. Its your opinion i respect it.
So i'll base my argument on that.

If you look at last year 30-60 guys.

You have Backes who does 4.5 and his 10 times more valuable.
Matt moulson has 3.1 in salary.
Lucic has 4.
Dustin Brown has 3.1
Franzen has 3.9
Stewart has 3.
Eriksson has 4.2
Bourque has 3.33
David jones has 2.5
Horton Does 4
Cole 4.5
Burrows has 2
cleary has 2.8
Hartnell has 4.2
Clowe has 3.6

Now what ?
If Gionta is traded, you would need to replace his production, most likely through Free Agency, if most of those guys hit the open market, what would we have to pay to get them? Almost the same amount as we paid for Gionta.

Again like I said early, he might be overpaid by maybe 500K, there is no way you can get the same amount of production for anything around 3-4M, unless your giving up assets for.

Guys score around the same amount of goals as Gionta

Pominville 5.3
Cammalleri 6
Laich 4.5
Havlat 5
Malone 4.5
Alfredsson 4.8


Last edited by habs03: 02-03-2012 at 02:15 PM.
habs03 is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:05 PM
  #171
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
We aren't getting any bigger on the blue line that's for sure. Diaz and Weber aren't even 6'1 and we'll continue to get pushed around.

O'Byrne's been playing physical game in and game out for almost 20 minutes per game. Why did we trade him for a minor league guy?

Management needs to go period!!
Weak, weak arguments... Gill might be huge, but he doesn't instill fear in anyone. And Bournival will probably become a better player than O'Byrne ever will. Management needs to go, I agree though...

Vasculio is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:08 PM
  #172
onice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,415
vCash: 500
GMs Will be looking at Hal Gill

Hopefully not when he's in the shower.

onice is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:17 PM
  #173
habs03
Subban #Thoroughbred
 
habs03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The market has changed since Gionta got his contract. They payed top dollar for him then to get him, now its about the going rate.

Unless you are Chicago and have so much internal talent you don't have enough space to keep them all the main use for cap space is to add new "overpaid" players. Underpaid players cost assets to get whereas you can use capspace to add either UFA's (who cost the most of players to get) or players whose salaries are more than what their team wants to pay (who can be acquired as salary dumps.

Fairly paid or underpaid players are only availible from your own drafting/development/prospect acquistion/asset trading. Most teams run out of those kinds of players far below the cap ceiling. Then its a matter of getting the best "overpaid" players with the remainder of your budget.
This

Great post, I think your post perfect describe what I'm trying to say in the post above, but yours is just better written and better explained

habs03 is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:25 PM
  #174
Kirk Muller
Registered User
 
Kirk Muller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brrr -18, Gomez Cold
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,323
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
If we can? Absolutely. Since there's only 1 Pierre Gauthier, we won't be able to.
but maybe Bob Gainey will get hired as GM somewhere else, then we
have a trading partner. Maybe he will even take on Gomez again. After all BG probably hasnt realized its not 2005 anymore.

Kirk Muller is offline  
Old
02-03-2012, 02:35 PM
  #175
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,471
vCash: 500
When the Heinz 57 (Gomez) albatross is taken care of this summer-via swallowing his contract or a new CBA loophole-then Gionta's salary isn't any big deal. He should be good for at least 25 goals next season which is more than acceptable for a player of his age and the point that he'll be in his contractual deal.

????/Plekanec/Gionta
Cole/DD/Pacioretty

will give this team a decent first two line combo next season.

The Habs have lost about every game that they could this season. They're like the opposite of what Tampa Bay was last season-they won almost every one of their close games. This team isn't near as bad or in need of near as much as their record appears to make them.

Cyclones Rock is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.