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05-05-2012, 02:55 PM
  #251
CarvinSigX
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Errorhoff doesn't belong in the same sentence as those other guys. I'd also like to note that all of these players haven't been nearly as good after signing the big contracts.

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05-05-2012, 03:14 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
Errorhoff doesn't belong in the same sentence as those other guys. I'd also like to note that all of these players haven't been nearly as good after signing the big contracts.
Again, I'm not arguing whether it would have been good or bad for us to sign them. I'm just trying to show what I feel is the likelihood of us signing a top FA.

But to meet your point, who's to say the same won't happen with Suter(if we are able to sign him)? That is part of my concern if we do end up signing Suter (as I mentioned in my first post). From what I heard, many Sabres players got angry when they went out and spent big bucks on FAs and they didn't live up to expectations. Many of the players we left asking why they took less money to stay or why they weren't rewarded for their play instead. And if he doesn't end up being a top dman, it makes it easier for other players to demand more money when their contract is up. I don't necessarily think this will happen with Suter, but I also can't say its outside the realm of possibility.

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05-05-2012, 05:49 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Parise is not how this team should be thinking. If it's between Suter and Parise it's Suter and it's not even close.

They have been buried in their own zone this playoffs, and adding Parise isn't going to fix that. They would be buried in their own zone next playoffs.
Has a lot to do with the fact that we can't bury a team in their zone and we have no forwards that put a little fear in a defense.

If you watched game 3, you noticed that our offense was much worse than our defense. The defense wasn't that awful. It was Elliott's 3-4 soft goals that gave LA the win. Yeah LA had us pinned in at times but that's what happens when you have Mike Richards, Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown and Jeff Carter. Skilled forwards can do that.

Again, look at Nashville. Weber and Suter have been there for 6 years. The first year Suter didn't play in the playoffs but the Predators have been knocked out in the 1st round four times and are about to be eliminated in the 2nd for the second time.

A strong defense alone WILL NOT win a championship. It never has. You need legitimate 1st line forwards that can score goals and force a defense onto their heels. Nashville has never really had that and it is a big reason why they haven't made it to even the Conference Finals.

There is zero reason why the Blues should invest 7 million into another defender when the offense needs a 1st line stud like Parise.

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05-05-2012, 06:08 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Has a lot to do with the fact that we can't bury a team in their zone and we have no forwards that put a little fear in a defense.

If you watched game 3, you noticed that our offense was much worse than our defense. The defense wasn't that awful. It was Elliott's 3-4 soft goals that gave LA the win. Yeah LA had us pinned in at times but that's what happens when you have Mike Richards, Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown and Jeff Carter. Skilled forwards can do that.

Again, look at Nashville. Weber and Suter have been there for 6 years. The first year Suter didn't play in the playoffs but the Predators have been knocked out in the 1st round four times and are about to be eliminated in the 2nd for the second time.

A strong defense alone WILL NOT win a championship. It never has. You need legitimate 1st line forwards that can score goals and force a defense onto their heels. Nashville has never really had that and it is a big reason why they haven't made it to even the Conference Finals.

There is zero reason why the Blues should invest 7 million into another defender when the offense needs a 1st line stud like Parise.
It all depends on costs. Even when Tom Stillman takes over as majority owner, how much more will the blues add to the payroll, and how much will an "elite" top 6 forward cost, assuming they want to come here? If Parise is going to be available, guaranteed DET, CHI, SJ, ANA, VAN, CGY, TOR, & BOS will be coming w/ deep pockets (contingent on the new CBA). The 2011-2012 Cap usage is 54MM, committed monies for 12-13 is ~35MM with a cap of ~64MM, I'd like for Tom to spend ~60MM. Need to re-sign #74, #57, #12, maybe #25, maybe #5, and add Tarsenko if he comes.

1st priority for the Blues has to be a top pairing LD to pair with AP, question is...how much will he cost.

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05-05-2012, 06:54 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Has a lot to do with the fact that we can't bury a team in their zone and we have no forwards that put a little fear in a defense.

If you watched game 3, you noticed that our offense was much worse than our defense. The defense wasn't that awful. It was Elliott's 3-4 soft goals that gave LA the win. Yeah LA had us pinned in at times but that's what happens when you have Mike Richards, Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown and Jeff Carter. Skilled forwards can do that.

Again, look at Nashville. Weber and Suter have been there for 6 years. The first year Suter didn't play in the playoffs but the Predators have been knocked out in the 1st round four times and are about to be eliminated in the 2nd for the second time.

A strong defense alone WILL NOT win a championship. It never has. You need legitimate 1st line forwards that can score goals and force a defense onto their heels. Nashville has never really had that and it is a big reason why they haven't made it to even the Conference Finals.

There is zero reason why the Blues should invest 7 million into another defender when the offense needs a 1st line stud like Parise.
Couldn't disagree more. You don't pass up signing a top 3 defenseman in the League to sign a very good winger.

You can talk about a need for elite forwards to win, but the Bruins didn't have that last season and they managed okay. How about the West this year? Us, PHX and NSH all beat teams with more of that top end forward talent in the first round.

We are far better off finding out what our young forwards can do before going after a forward in FA. It certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Perron and McDonald could be 70 point players next season, and who knows what Tarasenko can do? We can be 100% sure that we won't have anyone to carry the load if something happened to Pietrangelo though.

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05-05-2012, 07:01 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by BDEuph View Post
It all depends on costs. Even when Tom Stillman takes over as majority owner, how much more will the blues add to the payroll, and how much will an "elite" top 6 forward cost, assuming they want to come here? If Parise is going to be available, guaranteed DET, CHI, SJ, ANA, VAN, CGY, TOR, & BOS will be coming w/ deep pockets (contingent on the new CBA). The 2011-2012 Cap usage is 54MM, committed monies for 12-13 is ~35MM with a cap of ~64MM, I'd like for Tom to spend ~60MM. Need to re-sign #74, #57, #12, maybe #25, maybe #5, and add Tarsenko if he comes.

1st priority for the Blues has to be a top pairing LD to pair with AP, question is...how much will he cost.
In terms of $ spent, even if we had $60m to spend, the only way we really could is by front-loading a big money signing. We have a lot of money coming off the books, and only a few holes to fill in the team. If there is going to be money to spend, then it will happen in 2013.

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05-05-2012, 07:06 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by BDEuph View Post
It all depends on costs. Even when Tom Stillman takes over as majority owner, how much more will the blues add to the payroll, and how much will an "elite" top 6 forward cost, assuming they want to come here? If Parise is going to be available, guaranteed DET, CHI, SJ, ANA, VAN, CGY, TOR, & BOS will be coming w/ deep pockets (contingent on the new CBA). The 2011-2012 Cap usage is 54MM, committed monies for 12-13 is ~35MM with a cap of ~64MM, I'd like for Tom to spend ~60MM. Need to re-sign #74, #57, #12, maybe #25, maybe #5, and add Tarsenko if he comes.

1st priority for the Blues has to be a top pairing LD to pair with AP, question is...how much will he cost.
Guys like Mark Giordano or Brad Stuart could possibly play with Pietrangelo. We don't have to get a 7 million dollar d-man to pair with Petro. Drew Doughty isn't playing with Chris Pronger or Bobby Orr in LA. He is playing with Rob Scuderi and they are doing just fine. We just need a strong, physical defensive d-man that can play 21-23 minutes a night. Stuart would be ideal.

As for Parise, just remember that Brad Richards ONLY(haha) got 9 years, 60 million and a lot of teams wanted him, including the Rangers who have the biggest wallet in the NHL. That is a 6.6 mil cap hit for a #1 center that puts up 75-90 points.
It is highly unlikely that Parise gets more than 7 million a year. He isn't a Stamkos or Crosby type superstar and he isn't a 6'2" center. He is very good and exactly what we need but he isn't a mega-millions type free agent.

As for re-signing guys, Perron could be gone for a young LH d-man like Brandon Gormley if we brought in Parise. Especially with Tarasenko and Schwartz being NHL ready and Rattie not too far behind. We will have plenty of wingers.
Stewart is gone regardless. We aren't going to hand out 3+ million for a guy that has no business playing in Hitchcock's system.

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05-05-2012, 07:24 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Couldn't disagree more. You don't pass up signing a top 3 defenseman in the League to sign a very good winger.

You can talk about a need for elite forwards to win, but the Bruins didn't have that last season and they managed okay. How about the West this year? Us, PHX and NSH all beat teams with more of that top end forward talent in the first round.

We are far better off finding out what our young forwards can do before going after a forward in FA. It certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Perron and McDonald could be 70 point players next season, and who knows what Tarasenko can do? We can be 100% sure that we won't have anyone to carry the load if something happened to Pietrangelo though.
Boston didn't have elite forwards but they still had 3, 60-70 point centers in Bergeron, Krejci, and Lucic. We don't really have one 60-70 point center. Backes is more 50-60. I also don't think we have any wingers as good as Nathan Horton.

Perhaps Perron can be a difference maker down the road but he hasn't been one in this postseason. He has shied away from the increased physical play and let's face it, he's not a legit goal scorer. He'll settle in around 20-25 a year.

McDonald is a very good forward, no doubt. But he is always hurt and is 35 in August.

Tarasenko is our best hope for a 35 goal scorer that can scare defenses but that is still a big question mark.

And while you mention Boston, who was Chara's partner last year? Bobby Orr? Nope, Dennis Seidenberg. A good defenseman but far from a 7 million dollar defenseman.

You don't need to have two of game's best d-men playing on a top pairing in order to win a Cup.

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05-05-2012, 07:27 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
He is very good and exactly what we need but he isn't a mega-millions type free agent.
.


How is Parise "exactly what we need"?
We're loaded with wingers to the point where we'll probably deal Stewart just to get rid of his contract. I don't care how good Parise is offensively, we don't need wingers.

What we need is a legit top line center. Backes has proven that he is best suited in a shut-down role and Berglund hasn't stepped up like we hoped he would. What Army needs to look for this summer is a legit top line center to push Backes and Berglund down a line. Adding another non-Elite 2-way winger does not do much to help us.

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05-05-2012, 07:43 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
And while you mention Boston, who was Chara's partner last year? Bobby Orr? Nope, Dennis Seidenberg. A good defenseman but far from a 7 million dollar defenseman.

You don't need to have two of game's best d-men playing on a top pairing in order to win a Cup.
Seidenberg is an absolute beast. IMO, probably one of the most underrated defensemen in the game. He may not be an offensive powerhouse, but the guy gets a lot less credit than he deserves. Boston also has Dougie Hamilton on the way. Can you imagine their blue line with a 6'5 Hamilton and 6'9 Chara. Yikes!

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05-05-2012, 07:48 PM
  #261
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How is Parise "exactly what we need"?
We're loaded with wingers to the point where we'll probably deal Stewart just to get rid of his contract. I don't care how good Parise is offensively, we don't need wingers.

What we need is a legit top line center. Backes has proven that he is best suited in a shut-down role and Berglund hasn't stepped up like we hoped he would. What Army needs to look for this summer is a legit top line center to push Backes and Berglund down a line. Adding another non-Elite 2-way winger does not do much to help us.
Well find me a top line, 70 point center that is available and then get back to me. It'd also be nice if they were a free agent and we didn't have to give up Schwartz, Cole and a 1st to get him.

Parise isn't a center but he has the playmaking skills of a center as evidenced by his 44 and 49 assist seasons. That goes with his 35+ goal scoring ability.

What we need is a top line, 75+ point forward. We have wingers but they aren't difference makers. Perron could be a 60 point guy but Steen and Oshie are hard working 50-55 point wingers. Stewart doesn't fit at all in St. Louis. McDonald is a good winger but is 35 next year and injury prone.
Tarasenko and Schwartz might be difference makers but that is a question mark and not a certainty.

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05-05-2012, 07:48 PM
  #262
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For a partner for Petro, I think someone like Suter is a pipe dream. IMO, they likely can't afford anything close to what Suter will cost (even once Stillman owns the team) and besides, the Blues just need a solid #2, not one of the best d-men in the league. I'd look more towards pending UFAs like Bryan Allen and Brad Stuart.

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05-05-2012, 07:51 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by h22prelude93 View Post
Seidenberg is an absolute beast. IMO, probably one of the most underrated defensemen in the game. He may not be an offensive powerhouse, but the guy gets a lot less credit than he deserves. Boston also has Dougie Hamilton on the way. Can you imagine their blue line with a 6'5 Hamilton and 6'9 Chara. Yikes!
I said Seidenberg was a good d-man. He certainly isn't a 7 million dollar a year player, though.

All we need is a strong defensive d-man who can play a ton of minutes and realize what his game is.

Brad Stuart could be a nice fit with Petro.

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05-05-2012, 08:05 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
I said Seidenberg was a good d-man. He certainly isn't a 7 million dollar a year player, though.

All we need is a strong defensive d-man who can play a ton of minutes and realize what his game is.

Brad Stuart could be a nice fit with Petro.
I was agreeing with you. Just wanted to point out that guys like that go under the radar. Give me a $3 Million Seidenberg over a $7 Million Suter any day of the week.

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05-05-2012, 08:49 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Boston didn't have elite forwards but they still had 3, 60-70 point centers in Bergeron, Krejci, and Lucic. We don't really have one 60-70 point center. Backes is more 50-60. I also don't think we have any wingers as good as Nathan Horton.
Boston had 4 guys over 50 points, and their joint-leading guys had 62 points. We had 3 guys over 50, and our 2 most talented offensive players (Perron and McDonald) were injured or we could easily have had 5.

We don't have anyone as dangerous as Horton, but that might be because this is the first year of our window and they have come to prominence yet (Tarasenko).

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Perhaps Perron can be a difference maker down the road but he hasn't been one in this postseason. He has shied away from the increased physical play and let's face it, he's not a legit goal scorer. He'll settle in around 20-25 a year.
Perron between 21-23 (157 games/82 avg.): 25-28-53

To suggest that Perron settles at 20-25 goals per season when he was on 30-30-60 pace after being out for over a year is bizarre. 24 is a typical break out year, so we'll see what he does next season, particularly after getting a proper offseason with no distractions.

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McDonald is a very good forward, no doubt. But he is always hurt and is 35 in August.
Good thing we have Schwartz ready to be groomed as his replacement next season.

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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
And while you mention Boston, who was Chara's partner last year? Bobby Orr? Nope, Dennis Seidenberg. A good defenseman but far from a 7 million dollar defenseman.

You don't need to have two of game's best d-men playing on a top pairing in order to win a Cup.
We don't need 2, but it sure as hell helps.

So would an elite scorer, but the difference is that we might have that from within. This is our first year of our window and we don't know what our best offensive prospects are because of injury and how early it is. Perron might break out next year after he has an offseason, Tarasenko might be that player, at this point next year it might even be Schwartz. That is the point.

If none of them look like becoming that, then is the time to make a move for a winger in free agency. It isn't like this is the only year a top forward will be available, it basically happens every offseason.

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05-05-2012, 09:39 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by STL fan in IA View Post
For a partner for Petro, I think someone like Suter is a pipe dream. IMO, they likely can't afford anything close to what Suter will cost (even once Stillman owns the team) and besides, the Blues just need a solid #2, not one of the best d-men in the league. I'd look more towards pending UFAs like Bryan Allen and Brad Stuart.
With Taylor being a major financier, think the new ownership group will be able to afford alot.

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05-05-2012, 09:50 PM
  #267
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With Taylor being a major financier, think the new ownership group will be able to afford alot.
I wonder what type of financial support he will bring. I'm worried that he is only their for show, and not much financial backing. If he is financially involved to a significant extent, we will be able to sign anyone we want, and be able to absorb the short-term losses, and reap the benefits with higher ticket and playoff revenue in the future.

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05-05-2012, 09:57 PM
  #268
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Boston had 4 guys over 50 points, and their joint-leading guys had 62 points. We had 3 guys over 50, and our 2 most talented offensive players (Perron and McDonald) were injured or we could easily have had 5.
In the past though, Bergeron and Krejci had put up 70 points in a season. It is also looking like Lucic is a legit 60 point player after his 2nd straight 60 point year.

I think those three are better than anyone we have then add in Horton. However, in the future Tarasenko could be better than all of them. Schwartz and Perron maybe as good.

But if we are comparing our team to Boston's, you have to ask if we have a Tim Thomas in net? Halak has shown he can steal a game 7 however he has also had some stinkers in that postseason. Can he post a .940 save percentage in a Cup run? Thomas has always been very good in the playoffs and is one of the best in the game.

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We don't have anyone as dangerous as Horton, but that might be because this is the first year of our window and they have come to prominence yet (Tarasenko).
If there is one reason why I wouldn't want Parise over Suter it is because Tarasenko has 35 goal, 35 assist potential. However, that is all it is right now. Can you pass up a legit top line, 28 year old forward on a hope? Parise isn't 31 years old like Brad Richards. He has a lot of good hockey left. You won't see too many free agents like him in the future. A 28 year old captain that puts up 70-80 points a year.


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To suggest that Perron settles at 20-25 goals per season when he was on 30-30-60 pace after being out for over a year is bizarre. 24 is a typical break out year, so we'll see what he does next season, particularly after getting a proper offseason with no distractions.
I definitely did a poor math job in my head. I figured Perron was on pace for right around 25 goals over 82 games. He was on pace for 30 like you said. So perhaps 25-30 a year, at least. The question will become if he can do it in the playoffs. Perron has looked far from a goal scorer this postseason.


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Good thing we have Schwartz ready to be groomed as his replacement next season.
I'm not sure Schwartz will ever be the point producer McDonald has been. We'll see, though. He has the elite IQ but his other skills are more above average than elite. Schwartz as a top line, difference making winger is more of a question mark than Tarasenko for me.


Quote:
If none of them look like becoming that, then is the time to make a move for a winger in free agency. It isn't like this is the only year a top forward will be available, it basically happens every offseason.
How many of them are 28, though? That is a big reason why I like Parise. He is a guy that you can give a 8-9 year contract to to help ease the cap hit and he will only be around 35-36 at the end of it.

I guess the same can be said about Suter but I just don't think we need him as much as a 35 goal, 40 assist forward.

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05-05-2012, 10:21 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I wonder what type of financial support he will bring. I'm worried that he is only their for show, and not much financial backing. If he is financially involved to a significant extent, we will be able to sign anyone we want, and be able to absorb the short-term losses, and reap the benefits with higher ticket and playoff revenue in the future.
Ok, even if Taylor is just for show(with a net worth of close to 8 billion, he's got a whole hell of a lot to show) there are plenty of other very rich, eager to win a cup, investors in the group. Maritz loves the Bluesand will probably invest alot of time and money in the team, as will stillman.About a month ago, my dad asked Maritz what the first thing he would do as an owner of the Blues, and he joked"put myself on the power play". These guys want to win, they aren't in it solely for the money, and are going to invest heavily in the team, not like the Lauries.It will be fun to watch next year.

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05-05-2012, 10:34 PM
  #270
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Ok, even if Taylor is just for show(with a net worth of close to 8 billion, he's got a whole hell of a lot to show) there are plenty of other very rich, eager to win a cup, investors in the group. Maritz loves the Bluesand will probably invest alot of time and money in the team, as will stillman.About a month ago, my dad asked Maritz what the first thing he would do as an owner of the Blues, and he joked"put myself on the power play". These guys want to win, they aren't in it solely for the money, and are going to invest heavily in the team, not like the Lauries.It will be fun to watch next year.
First off, the Laurie's desperately wanted to win, and invested heavily, and took massive losses. They weren't the brightest hockey wise, and forced Pleau to go after some big name players that Pleau didn't necessarily want, but Laurie wanted to win.

There is no denying the money that the new group has, but if they truly wanted to be hockey owners, they would've just bought the team for themselves.

I'm not denying that they don't want to win, but businessmen don't like losing millions of dollars.

I could realistically see them accepting losing a few million in the short-term, if they expect to make that back in 2-3 years, which if they spend the money right, is definitely possible, and they will probably become profitable.

I just don't think you can expect any of them investing a lot of money, and accepting huge losses in the first couple years.

If any of them were like Mark Cuban when he first bought the Mavericks, they would just buy the team themselves, and they wouldn't have required financing from the banks.

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05-05-2012, 10:48 PM
  #271
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How is Parise "exactly what we need"?
We're loaded with wingers to the point where we'll probably deal Stewart just to get rid of his contract. I don't care how good Parise is offensively, we don't need wingers.

What we need is a legit top line center. Backes has proven that he is best suited in a shut-down role and Berglund hasn't stepped up like we hoped he would. What Army needs to look for this summer is a legit top line center to push Backes and Berglund down a line. Adding another non-Elite 2-way winger does not do much to help us.


I'm so happy to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

Obviously, this won't be easy.

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05-05-2012, 10:53 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post


I'm so happy to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

Obviously, this won't be easy.
With the way the way the 2nd round has gone, I think Armstrong will be primed to make a big move. I wouldn't be too surprised if Armstrong put a big package together to get a #1 center. A package with Berglund and Stewart could definitely get a #1 center that we need. Berglund has shown in the playoffs that he can be a great center, and that he can also not be very productive, and that is exactly what he has shown in the regular season.

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05-05-2012, 11:24 PM
  #273
bluemandan
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Originally Posted by h22prelude93 View Post
From what I've heard it's much more likely J.Staal is shopped than Malkin. I mean seriously Malkin? Even if he was available(which he's not)...like others mentioned we simply couldn't afford him. J.Staal on the other hand I think is a very realistic possibility. Pittsburgh will almost certainly want to make a deal with a Western team...he will want to go to a winning team where he has a chance to challenge for the #1 spot, and I think realistically we'll have the disposable assets to trade for him. As I mentioned in the trade thread...I would love to see that deal happen. Imagine the possibilities with Staal, Backes, and Berglund down the middle.





BTW I hope I'm wrong, but with all the teams that need defensive help...I think Suter is going to be looking for a Brian Campbell type deal.
I'd imagine that Staal would be moved before Malkin as well. But I think we could afford Malkin. We have the assets, and some salary would end up going back towards Pittsburgh.

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05-06-2012, 12:17 AM
  #274
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Malkin traded to St. Louis? You guys must be smoking some potent herb.

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Old
05-06-2012, 12:26 AM
  #275
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Malkin won't be traded, it's that simple.

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