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06-07-2012, 02:58 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
The discussion at the time was the need to keep Stewart for the reason that we needed to be more physical against LA. By that point I had brought up a couple times without an answer a central rebuttal to that argument. Namely, the physical issues had more to do with being worn down and forechecked to death because our D couldn't get it out smoothly.
I wish people would try to remember when Stewart was getting hat tricks against teams as well as how much trouble they had trying to move stewart when he parked in front of the net. Sure, it looks like he is being lazy and doesn't care out there, but maybe Stewart knew that if he were to go skate in the zone, hit someone, and start grinding that it would drain his energy levels, and that was something to worry about if he was already out of shape in the first place so he would cheat around the grinding instead of engaging in it. I'm purely speculating though. I don't know exactly what Stewart's problem was and neither do fans on this board.

From my personal experience as a hockey player, hitting other players required lots of energy, and after every hit I placed on another player, I would be sooo exhausted so I stopped hitting other players.

If Stewart can go back to his old form, and if Tarasenko can turn into a Matt Duchene caliber player like I project him to be, then we have a new offense on our hands. Then maybe we can package D'ags/Perron and a draft pick for a top LHD.

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06-07-2012, 03:05 PM
  #902
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I think Stewart is great when he parks himself in front of the net and plays his high intensity smash-mouth game but there was none of that this year and I doubt a nutritionist has anything to do with that. He had basically the same speed as the 37 year old Arnott did. Stewart and Dags both looked unmotivated and there is no excuses for the at a pro-level especially with how much they are getting paid. Nichol gets paid basically the league minimum and gives it 100% every night. The Blues need more of that..

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06-07-2012, 03:12 PM
  #903
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I think Stewart is great when he parks himself in front of the net and plays his high intensity smash-mouth game but there was none of that this year and I doubt a nutritionist has anything to do with that. He had basically the same speed as the 37 year old Arnott did. Stewart and Dags both looked unmotivated and there is no excuses for the at a pro-level especially with how much they are getting paid. Nichol gets paid basically the league minimum and gives it 100% every night. The Blues need more of that..
Well, Stewart got more than just a nutritionist though remember? More importantly, he got a trainer to get him in shape and replace his fat with muscle. Imagine if Stewart was jacked and lean like Reaves or Polak. We could see that after 5 months of training in Toronto.

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06-07-2012, 03:14 PM
  #904
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Just give him the year. If he fails, oh well, cut your losses(or trade them). I'm under the impression he can at least randomly show up with a backhand over a shoulder, or a nice fist to the face. I'm optimistic for the season, and stewart.

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06-07-2012, 03:19 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Kopitar, Richards, and Carter can all take physical play. Did you see what happened to Perron and Oshie against Burns and Doughty. They have size and speed, so they aren't affected by physical play as much as our players are.

If Oshie improves his skating, he would be one of the smaller players that would be fine. Steen is another player that isn't physical, but can withstand physical play because of his build and skating ability.

Perron and Schwartz don't have the skating ability or build to withstand physical play.

McDonald's speed and agility more than makes up for his size.

Berglund and Stewart are both inconsistent in using their size.

Tarasenko will probably be able to take the physical play because of his build and skating ability, so I don't have much worries about him.

Physical play is much more than just hitting other players, it is about taking hits as well. It's about standing up against the opposition's physical play. Against LA, after pretty much every whistle all the LA players were there and involved, and we responded with undisciplined play and taking dumb penalties.

We have to get mentally tougher and be able to handle physical play, and that potentially means moving Perron for example for a player that can handle that pressure.

LA went after Richards last summer, we need to do something similar.
You just said it yourself. The Blues responded with undisciplined play and dumb penalties. Those are a result of mental sharpness/toughness, or a lack thereof, as opposed to not being able to physically compete. Check out Richards' or Carter's physical profiles, they're no bigger than Oshie or Perron, especially Carter who's had a reputation of being as soft as baby thighs. Skating ability or not, withstanding physical play is as much mental as it is physical. You can be as big as Chara, but if you take dumb penalties each time you're hit, you're no more capable than a 165 pounder trying to make it in the NHL.

If you feel Perron should be moved, that's cool. I just think your reason of inability to withstand physical pressure is wrong.

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06-07-2012, 03:22 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by FredBrathwaite View Post
I wish people would try to remember when Stewart was getting hat tricks against teams as well as how much trouble they had trying to move stewart when he parked in front of the net. Sure, it looks like he is being lazy and doesn't care out there, but maybe Stewart knew that if he were to go skate in the zone, hit someone, and start grinding that it would drain his energy levels, and that was something to worry about if he was already out of shape in the first place so he would cheat around the grinding instead of engaging in it. I'm purely speculating though. I don't know exactly what Stewart's problem was and neither do fans on this board.

From my personal experience as a hockey player, hitting other players required lots of energy, and after every hit I placed on another player, I would be sooo exhausted so I stopped hitting other players.

If Stewart can go back to his old form, and if Tarasenko can turn into a Matt Duchene caliber player like I project him to be, then we have a new offense on our hands. Then maybe we can package D'ags/Perron and a draft pick for a top LHD.
You say give the guy a chance and cite sophomore slumps (fifth-year senior slump?) but it's not purely one dimension. 9 times out of 10 the Blues roster would be constructed in a way that keeping him would be a no-brainer. But this is that one time where 1) they're so loaded on the wings and 2) they need to go full-measure on the top LHD spot, not half-measure, which will cost $$. Stewart is not a sophomore on an ELC where the cost for being patient is small. There are multiple dimensions. Every roster/payroll decision affects the other decisions.

When Stewart was getting hat tricks he was doing it with odd-man rushes in a run and gun system. I swear I'm not making this up. You can go to NHL.com and look up any player and see all his career goals. He would score on the rush, often cheating the dzone which he can't do here or Hitchcock will bench him, or he'd score on the PP mostly from the front of the net or parked on the back post. These ways comprise almost the totality of his goals, and if you take one of those away it just seems logical you're cutting into what he can reasonably be expected to do. There's almost nothing as the result of a 5x5 cycling forecheck, which is how the Blues generate their offense. Perhaps he will earn his way onto the PP once again, but the Blues aren't hurting for options there. The keys to the PP are McDonald's abilities and Pietrangelo QB'ing.

You bring up effort. I'm someone who pushes back on those who say he doesn't bring much effort. It's not effort or laziness, it's that the effort goes into the wrong things. He doesn't lose the puck against defenders because he's lazy, it's because he doesn't possess the skills of being a good stickhandler in traffic. When he scores on the rush it's because he has lots of room to skate. When he scores in front of the net it's not stickhandling, it's cleaning up rebounds. So why do people attribute his ineffectiveness with the puck against defensive pressure to laziness? I sure don't. I look at it and go, oh, he's never had that skill nor has he ever been asked to do it. This is why I'm skeptical about an offseason nutrition and exercise regimen correcting a hockey problem.

Moreover, there are way too many people saying don't give up on him just yet without saying how much time they'd give him. Indefinitely? Until it's absolutely, positively clear he can't do it? And what will the residual value in the asset be at that point? Certainly less than right now. The truth is there is usually never a clear answer and it's about managing different risks. Since every payroll decision affects every other one, it's purely an issue of cost-benefit. Like I said, 9 times out of 10 there's not this depth and talent on the roster, but this particular summer is a key summer in terms of making sure they get the right partner for Pietrangelo, because top-two defenseman is like top scoring line in terms of cornerstone piece. I would hate for them to skimp on that player becuase they need to wait on Stewart when the roster is loaded at his position. It's cost-benefit.

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06-07-2012, 03:30 PM
  #907
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1. The defense was clearly the issue in the LA series. I actually thought our forwards did a pretty good job of going to the hard areas (Backes' goal in Game 1, McDonald Game 2, Stewart Game 3) considering the terrific box out ability of guys like Scuderi and Mitchell

2. I'm always more concerned with compete level rather than size. I just read an article about Justin Williams and all the teammates quoted in the article spoke of how much of a warrior he is. It's probably the reason he's been injured many times in his career. He's not the biggest guy in the world and reminds me of players like Perron and Oshie in that sense. While they are not undersized per se, they aren't built like tanks yet they still are good players along the wall and win a lot of puck battles because not only are they smart but they are ferocious competitors.

Perron's playoff performance was just average but as P9's alluded to (and Perron did as well) he wasn't able to properly condition himself because of the head injury and appeared to run out of gas. I think with a standard offseason workout routine he's going to be a beast next season and shouldn't be moved. I still think he's a special talent.

Steen also didn't look like himself in the post-season but we know his compete level is high.

Stewart on the other hand, despite his size, appears to lack the internal drive to compete. It's been a knock him throughout his career. He can be madenning because like Dustin Penner for instance, when he puts it together he can be an absolute force and big time asset.

3...Which is why I think Armstrong said what he did after the season regarding Stewart, saying essentially it would be tough to give up on a player like that. I think his skill-set is part of DA's rationale but also the fact that he gave up a huge piece to get him in his first big trade as GM and wants to see Stewart maximize his potential in being the "real" big chip in the trade (not Shattenkirk) despite the risks associate with that laid out throughout this thread.

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06-07-2012, 03:42 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post

When Stewart was getting hat tricks he was doing it with odd-man rushes in a run and gun system. I swear I'm not making this up. You can go to NHL.com and look up any player and see all his career goals.

Moreover, there are way too many people saying don't give up on him just yet without saying how much time they'd give him. Indefinitely? Until it's absolutely, positively clear he can't do it? And what will the residual value in the asset be at that point? Certainly less than right now. The truth is there is usually never a clear answer and it's about managing different risks. Since every payroll decision affects every other one, it's purely an issue of cost-benefit. Like I said, 9 times out of 10 there's not this depth and talent on the roster, but this particular summer is a key summer in terms of making sure they get the right partner for Pietrangelo, because top-two defenseman is like top scoring line in terms of cornerstone piece. I would hate for them to skimp on that player becuase they need to wait on Stewart when the roster is loaded at his position. It's cost-benefit.
I agree about the run and gun type of thing he had going in colorado with Stastny and Duchene, but I still think he can find other ways to score. He is a versatile scorer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrZ9oucJrAM All different goals as discussed by the broadcasters towards the tail end of the video.

It also didn't help him earlier on in the season when he was playing with Patrik Berglund who is also a shooter. I think Stewart fits the role of of a finisher with the help of a playmaker. Due to Stewart's high ceiling, I would be willing to take the chance on him. I am willing to give him another chance until the next trade deadline, and then if I see the same crap even after getting lean and in shape, then I propose that we trade him.

Also, I think we can free up some cap space in order to make room for our highest priority being the LHD for Petro if we don't resign Langenbrunner, Arnott, Jackman, and Colaiacovo. I'd like to see this for our D pairings.

LHD Petro
Cole Shatty
Russell Polak

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06-07-2012, 03:46 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
You just said it yourself. The Blues responded with undisciplined play and dumb penalties. Those are a result of mental sharpness/toughness, or a lack thereof, as opposed to not being able to physically compete. Check out Richards' or Carter's physical profiles, they're no bigger than Oshie or Perron, especially Carter who's had a reputation of being as soft as baby thighs. Skating ability or not, withstanding physical play is as much mental as it is physical. You can be as big as Chara, but if you take dumb penalties each time you're hit, you're no more capable than a 165 pounder trying to make it in the NHL.

If you feel Perron should be moved, that's cool. I just think your reason of inability to withstand physical pressure is wrong.
We got physically bullied during that series. Every chance LA got, they hit us, all every LA player was involved between the whistle. They physically dominated the series. Even if they disciplined, it doesn't change the fact that they got dominated physically.

It doesn't take a genius to know that.

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06-07-2012, 03:58 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by FredBrathwaite View Post
I agree about the run and gun type of thing he had going in colorado with Stastny and Duchene, but I still think he can find other ways to score. He is a versatile scorer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrZ9oucJrAM All different goals as discussed by the broadcasters towards the tail end of the video.

It also didn't help him earlier on in the season when he was playing with Patrik Berglund who is also a shooter. I think Stewart fits the role of of a finisher with the help of a playmaker. Due to Stewart's high ceiling, I would be willing to take the chance on him. I am willing to give him another chance until the next trade deadline, and then if I see the same crap even after getting lean and in shape, then I propose that we trade him.

Also, I think we can free up some cap space in order to make room for our highest priority being the LHD for Petro if we don't resign Langenbrunner, Arnott, Jackman, and Colaiacovo. I'd like to see this for our D pairings.

LHD Petro
Cole Shatty
Russell Polak
Your link underlines my point. Goal #1 is exactly what I described PP goal, standing in front of the net. Goal #2 Hitchcock would bench him if he were cheating that much puck heading back the other way and 9/10 he winds up out of position, plus the goal requires zero stickhandling against a defense. Goal #3 is also exactly what I described. Slapshot from the wing on the odd-man rush. I've seen these and every other one of his NHL goals and I'm telling you there's almost none involving the cycle and almost none against true defensive pressure those kind of goals against butter soft Calgary defense aren't going to happen in the postseason. We both agree in terms of suggesting video be watched watch the video of all his goals and it becomes clear what I'm talking about is true.

JR said today in chat the Blues want to sign Langenbrunner. Langenbrunner certainly wants to be here. JR is usually pretty accurate with this kind of speculation. If that's true there's even more of a logjam.

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06-07-2012, 04:43 PM
  #911
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I agree with what bleedblue1233 is saying. The Blues just cannot afford to lose any size or grit up front this offseason and that's just why I don't see them moving Stewart unless another powerforward like Clowe or something would be brought in to replace him. It's frankly just too early to give up on Stewart and he deserves another chance. He can be a rewarding player; we've seen it.

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread and I do love to speculate on what our roster will be in 2012-2013. I'm starting to believe we may have almost no changes up front, with Sobotka sliding into the 3rd-line center spot. Sounds like Langenbrunner and Nichol could be back.

I honestly think D'Agostini could be moved but other than that the forwards could fill out nicely.

I think Armstrong's main focus will be getting that defenseman to play with Pietrangelo, as it should be.

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06-07-2012, 04:50 PM
  #912
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Grit. Power forward. Sure.

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06-07-2012, 05:05 PM
  #913
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Yep, Stewart provides it. But man, that D'Agostini sure is tough, I'm sure he would be 10 times better.

Quick, trade Stewart for a draft pick!

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06-07-2012, 05:20 PM
  #914
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I hope in the alternate universe where Stewart does provide it, the Blues have won at least a few Cups in their history. And yeah, D'Agostini is Stewart's minutes replacement because we all gotta play dumb and pretend it's not Tarasenko.

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06-07-2012, 06:09 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
I hope in the alternate universe where Stewart does provide it, the Blues have won at least a few Cups in their history. And yeah, D'Agostini is Stewart's minutes replacement because we all gotta play dumb and pretend it's not Tarasenko.
They only have one. Bobby Ryan won Conn Smythe after we traded Stewart and Berglund for him.

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06-07-2012, 06:25 PM
  #916
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Stewart did show heart in the playoffs. Granted he didn't perform that well, but he did start to play physical. With his size he could have been a lot more physical, but it was an improvement over the rest of the season.

What made Stewart's game great in the first place was his burst of speed, and last season he didn't have that. If he can get that burst back, I think it is likely that we get the old Stewart back. Only time will tell if he gets his burst of speed back.

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06-07-2012, 06:44 PM
  #917
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Stewart also needs to go back to screening the goal again. Not only is he a big body to have up from but St. Louis only has a few players that is willing to engage in that kind of goal scoring.

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06-07-2012, 06:51 PM
  #918
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They only have one. Bobby Ryan won Conn Smythe after we traded Stewart and Berglund for him.
Obviously that trade must've been made early enough where Anaheim no longer scoffs at the idea. You do get that it's weird to make fun of an idea for the reason it's bad value when the other side would reject it for not being enough value, right?

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06-07-2012, 06:56 PM
  #919
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We're veering off course here. Let's try and keep things focused on what's happening with the team moving forward instead of discussions that took place months ago.

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06-07-2012, 07:08 PM
  #920
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I like the idea of Tarasenko and Schwartz on the same line at the start of the season.

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06-07-2012, 07:22 PM
  #921
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I like the idea of Tarasenko and Schwartz on the same line at the start of the season.
Would probably take a Perron-Staal type trade to make that happen so that the third line becomes Schwartz-Berglund-Tarasenko. Schwartz is skilled enough to play in the NHL right now and would ordinarily crack the roster but there might be a numbers game where his is the only two-way contract that can reasonably be sent down. Still plenty of things to shake out and having Schwartz and Tarasenko on the same line would be exciting to see whenever it happens.

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06-07-2012, 09:18 PM
  #922
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I think that I like that line more as a PP unit than a full time combination.

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06-07-2012, 10:23 PM
  #923
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Stewart also needs to go back to screening the goal again. Not only is he a big body to have up from but St. Louis only has a few players that is willing to engage in that kind of goal scoring.


Stewart needs to spend months watching game film of Big Walt in his prime. He needs to learn to play in front of the net. Hell, he can also watch Backes on a nightly basis too. There is no reason he shouldn't play like Backes. I love Backes, but he isn't some special talent, he just works his ass off, hits everything that moves and plays in front of the net.

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06-07-2012, 10:26 PM
  #924
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Stewart also needs to go back to screening the goal again. Not only is he a big body to have up from but St. Louis only has a few players that is willing to engage in that kind of goal scoring.
This. There are other ways a player can use his size effectively and show 'grit' besides throwing bone crushing hits along the boards. Seems that one person doesn't understand that. Stewart provides a lot of valuable things. He might not all the time, but we've seen what he can do.

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Obviously that trade must've been made early enough where Anaheim no longer scoffs at the idea. You do get that it's weird to make fun of an idea for the reason it's bad value when the other side would reject it for not being enough value, right?
Do you think I care what the reason is? It's not a good proposal either way, I can make fun of anything I want.

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06-07-2012, 10:52 PM
  #925
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Things for which I would trade Stewart without a moment's hesitation:
  • A top pairing defensive defenseman
  • A legit 1C (in a package deal)
  • A top-10 pick this year
  • A 2013 1st round pick from a bottom-5 team this year

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that the Blues *really* need a third line center like Stoll, and I certainlly wouldn't be willing to pay $3m+ for one. Go no-holds-barred on a #1 LHD and/or a #1 C, IMO, and fill the third line center position with whomever we can.

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