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Old
04-16-2012, 12:55 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I mean, if what you brought up was true, why would Elliott have signed a 2 year extension with us, at such a good price. Elliott is probably glad we gave him a chance after the season he had before. He is enjoying hockey again, so I seriously doubt he starts giving trade demands. I'm not freaking out on you, just giving you the other side.
If it doesnt happen now it will happen eventually that's for sure

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04-16-2012, 01:07 AM
  #77
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If it doesnt happen now it will happen eventually that's for sure
Not so sure about that...

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04-16-2012, 01:21 AM
  #78
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Not so sure about that...
LOL and I am Ok with that :p

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04-16-2012, 01:25 AM
  #79
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Actually I doubt that.

As much as we fans have truly enjoyed the absolutely stunningly stellar play so far by the goaltending duo of the Blues, hopefully both goalies realize that, frankly, neither one of them are studly enough to go through an entire season. Halak wears down too quickly and Elliot needs to prove he can play this well for more than a single season.

So, unless some team comes in and just massively overpays I see no conceivable way the Blues are without their pair of goalies next year.
Are you saying that athletes at the top of their games, one of whom just turned in the most elite performance in the history of the National Hockey League should "hopefully realize" they aren't for real?

It's not like either will hold out or suddenly get petulant if both keep performing at this level and continuing the tandem, and I have no idea where this new poster's ideas are coming from in thinking they will, but I don't think it necessitates either guy believing he isn't capable of being a #1 if the other guy has a mediocre year next year.

That's pretty much what'll happen. Going into next year, each will get chances to play. If they play as well as this year, they'll be a tandem again. If one isn't as sharp while the other stays sharp, it'll be a starter/backup situation until something changes. The Blues have a dream situation. Two great options who push each other competitively.

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04-16-2012, 01:42 AM
  #80
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Are you saying that athletes at the top of their games, one of whom just turned in the most elite performance in the history of the National Hockey League should "hopefully realize" they aren't for real?
Yes, because neither has shown in the past that they are capable of being that super goalie for an entire season, much less plus post-season.
They have both performed exceptionally with the lighter workload them both sharing gets them.

Neither of them is a Rinne, Hank, Luongo (thank the gods for that, eh?) etc. They may never be.

As long as both of them understand they are far better together I do not foresee any issues.

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04-16-2012, 01:54 AM
  #81
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Yes, because neither has shown in the past that they are capable of being that super goalie for an entire season, much less plus post-season.
They have both performed exceptionally with the lighter workload them both sharing gets them.

Neither of them is a Rinne, Hank, Luongo (thank the gods for that, eh?) etc. They may never be.

As long as both of them understand they are far better together I do not foresee any issues.
They're 26! These aren't 35yo career backups. I can't believe you think it's realistic they should see themselves as not good enough to be a #1 at 26 having had the years they've each had and overcoming as much as they have to get here since being drafted as afterthoughts. Halak beat Ovechkin and Crosby in back to back series his last time in the playoffs after stealing the job from the golden boy draft pick and he should, at 26, carry the mentality that he's not a real #1. Elliott just set an all-time record and posted NINE shutouts in half a season, and he should realize that this happened not because he was playing for a team with real defense for the first time but because with just a few more starts he'd have, I dunno, plummeted his overall numbers down to .910 or something (which would have taken about a .850 for twenty more games). Do you actually WANT goaltenders who don't have confidence they're legitimate #1 talent? I really find absolutely zero merit in this position we're discussing, on multiple levels.

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04-16-2012, 02:11 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
They're 26! These aren't 35yo career backups. I can't believe you think it's realistic they should see themselves as not good enough to be a #1 at 26 having had the years they've each had and overcoming as much as they have to get here since being drafted as afterthoughts. Halak beat Ovechkin and Crosby in back to back series his last time in the playoffs after stealing the job from the golden boy draft pick and he should, at 26, carry the mentality that he's not a real #1. Elliott just set an all-time record and posted NINE shutouts in half a season, and he should realize that this happened not because he was playing for a team with real defense for the first time but because with just a few more starts he'd have, I dunno, plummeted his overall numbers down to .910 or something (which would have taken about a .850 for twenty more games). Do you actually WANT goaltenders who don't have confidence they're legitimate #1 talent? I really find absolutely zero merit in this position we're discussing, on multiple levels.
Mmm then forget about it . How about that . Plus people around here can discuss everything they want it you disagree thats fine if you're not happy thats fine too but I dont think you have the right to say that my opinion has no merit or others for that matter I was just saying stuff sorry if I offensed anyone I am not an expert I was just sharing a feeling I guess - -'

PS: yes I am new here I've been reading this board for a while now and I decided to join it . Perhaps it was not a such a good idea after all

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04-16-2012, 02:13 AM
  #83
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Mmm then forget about it . How about that . Plus people around here can discuss everything they want it you disagree thats fine if you're not happy thats fine too but I dont think you have the right to say that my opinion has no merit or others for that matter I was just saying stuff sorry if I offensed anyone I am not an expert I was just sharing a feeling I guess - -'

PS: yes I am new here I've been reading this board for a while now and I decided to join it . Perhaps it was not a such a good idea after all
Just ease yourself in, and defend your opinions with why you think that.

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04-16-2012, 02:14 AM
  #84
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sorry for the mistakes my Iphone is so tiny

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04-16-2012, 07:28 AM
  #85
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No, 4M is a bargain for signing him. UFA does get crazy, but he's earned a serious payday.
And that may be. I just have to wonder how signing a 30 point defenseman to a $5 million/year deal will affect our salary structure.

Solid defensively, plays the body, big booming shot. Sounds great. But he had a career year with half his points being goals.

I guess I'm just worried about him being the Ville Leino of defence.

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04-16-2012, 08:03 AM
  #86
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I don't see Arnott, Langenbrunner and Carlo (FA ?) back next year. That's 8-9 million of savings too. 2013 will be AMac's last year too, that's another 4 mill of savings. I would also trade Stewart if the Tank is coming over. The Blues are in good payroll shape for the short and long term. Oshie, Petro and Shatty need long term deals and the Blues should be able to take care of them, plus maybe one decent FA defender signing.

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04-16-2012, 10:33 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by BlacknB View Post
Mmm then forget about it . How about that . Plus people around here can discuss everything they want it you disagree thats fine if you're not happy thats fine too but I dont think you have the right to say that my opinion has no merit or others for that matter I was just saying stuff sorry if I offensed anyone I am not an expert I was just sharing a feeling I guess - -'

PS: yes I am new here I've been reading this board for a while now and I decided to join it . Perhaps it was not a such a good idea after all
Honestly, maybe not. If you've been reading awhile and had that kind of wounded reply to a post of mine that wasn't replying to you, I dunno what else to say.

Your opinion that one of the goalies who is under contract will simply leave has no merit, however. Don't play the "my opinion that one of the goalies will just refuse to honor his contract out of petulance is every bit as valid a 'feeling' as yours" card, ok? You didn't "offend" anyone with this opinion. It's just not legitimate.

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04-16-2012, 10:40 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
And that may be. I just have to wonder how signing a 30 point defenseman to a $5 million/year deal will affect our salary structure.

Solid defensively, plays the body, big booming shot. Sounds great. But he had a career year with half his points being goals.

I guess I'm just worried about him being the Ville Leino of defence.
Not really paying him as much for the goals as for the defense, which is rock solid. That he has an absurd shot and has a knack for jumping into a rush makes him a real weapon. But even if he never got more than 10 goals you're paying him for the defense. He's one of the top defensive defensemen in the league and can play huge minutes in all situations against anyone. He's someone uou can very much trust to be an anchor if Petro or Shattenkirk were hurt, or even if they weren't. Don't hold it against him that he seemingly came out of nowhere. His defense has been very strong for more than one season.

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04-16-2012, 11:16 AM
  #89
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I guess part of what I'm saying is it seems odd to be hoping we can outbid teams for Suter (which we're probably talking him getting 7M) but balk at 5M for Garrison. I can understand balking at both or neither but not being happy to pay the Suter price but not the Garrison one. Garrison >>>> Gunnarsson, for example.

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04-16-2012, 11:36 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
They're 26! These aren't 35yo career backups. I can't believe you think it's realistic they should see themselves as not good enough to be a #1 at 26 having had the years they've each had and overcoming as much as they have to get here since being drafted as afterthoughts. Halak beat Ovechkin and Crosby in back to back series his last time in the playoffs after stealing the job from the golden boy draft pick and he should, at 26, carry the mentality that he's not a real #1. Elliott just set an all-time record and posted NINE shutouts in half a season, and he should realize that this happened not because he was playing for a team with real defense for the first time but because with just a few more starts he'd have, I dunno, plummeted his overall numbers down to .910 or something (which would have taken about a .850 for twenty more games). Do you actually WANT goaltenders who don't have confidence they're legitimate #1 talent? I really find absolutely zero merit in this position we're discussing, on multiple levels.
I would prefer they both realize that they are tremendous goaltenders who can play absolutely lights-out hockey.

At issue though is that neither has shown capability to go an entire season without wearing down. We saw Halak do so last year.
Elliott, while I am extremely impressed with him, is likely to regress to the mean...it is quite likely a new mean...but it will be lower than his year this year.

Would playing another 15-20 games have made a difference for Elliott? Probably, although not to the degree you are indicating in your hyperbole. Maybe another shutout and .005 off.

Would it have made a difference for Halak? Almost certainly, it surely did last year...in particular when he has to play many games in a row.

Neither goaltender has shown the capability to go an entire season, much less plus playoffs. The Blues are going to need excellent goaltending as they are not going to outscore that many teams.

Which gets me back to my previous point. My hope is that both goalies realize they are young still and could use another year or two of playing in a tandem before becoming "The Man" and starting for 65+ games per year.
I suspect after next year one or both of them is going to begin believing they are in fact ready for that stage (which would make sense as it would be the starting point most goaltenders are when they begin to become truly dominant) and no longer need to split games.

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04-16-2012, 11:40 AM
  #91
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I guess part of what I'm saying is it seems odd to be hoping we can outbid teams for Suter (which we're probably talking him getting 7M) but balk at 5M for Garrison. I can understand balking at both or neither but not being happy to pay the Suter price but not the Garrison one. Garrison >>>> Gunnarsson, for example.
Precisely.
While I am a bit gun-shy over giving Suter $7, that is the going price for a player of his caliber in this free agent class and frankly if the Blues feel he is the missing piece then, by all means, go get him.

But Garrion at $5? Same thing as Suter...not quite as good obviously but he is still more than capable of playing on the top line and the minutes/responsibilities that entails.



Regardless...the Blues have to find someone to replace Colo...and I am not convinced that Cole will be ready next year. NHL-worthy sure, but not top pairing ready.

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04-16-2012, 11:43 AM
  #92
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Until one of the goalies actually acts like they want a change there's no reason to assume it'll happen. Halak thrives when he has good competition and isn't stuck with a "team on my back" mentality towards individual success. Elliottt is banking on an opportunity he's never had before and a 2 year extension says he's not looking back and not risking his future when he can try and win big right now, even as a 1b.

They both get plenty of opportunity to play, and both get plenty of reward for succeeding, chances for redemption, look good holding up their side of things when one struggles to get a win (even if they're not at fault) or is hurt.

It's great situation for two guys who would want to establish a presence in the league and eventually get a long term deal, not walk out and risk losing the best opportunity of both their careers to date.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Until we have an owner in place and a long term budget for the team I think the idea of worrying about long term deals and value is hard to be precise with. If it makes the team better, they earn more money by winning and having an impact in the post season, it redeems itself by bringing overall success to the franchise. Beyond that the risks are simply holding on to the best pieces of our core and trying realize who truly belongs in it because of what they can do reliably and not in the best situation for each individual at the risk of an injury / trade completely disrupting it. There's going to come a time when some players are already making what they're worth and others are more valuable as a whole, trying to circumvent that by avoiding a UFA isn't going to help the team nearly as much as winning.

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04-16-2012, 01:55 PM
  #93
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Not really paying him as much for the goals as for the defense, which is rock solid. That he has an absurd shot and has a knack for jumping into a rush makes him a real weapon. But even if he never got more than 10 goals you're paying him for the defense. He's one of the top defensive defensemen in the league and can play huge minutes in all situations against anyone. He's someone uou can very much trust to be an anchor if Petro or Shattenkirk were hurt, or even if they weren't. Don't hold it against him that he seemingly came out of nowhere. His defense has been very strong for more than one season.
Okay, I won't. But Jay McKee didn't come out of nowhere either...

I don't think we can/will out bid teams for Suter. We just won the Jennings trophy. I'm not sure that management is willing to spend what little budget they have on an area of strenght.

Again, I love to have him, I just don't want to overspend.

And if the Blues are going to throw crazy money at a free-agent, I'd rather get Parise.

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04-16-2012, 02:06 PM
  #94
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Okay, I won't. But Jay McKee didn't come out of nowhere either...

I don't think we can/will out bid teams for Suter. We just won the Jennings trophy. I'm not sure that management is willing to spend what little budget they have on an area of strenght.

Again, I love to have him, I just don't want to overspend.

And if the Blues are going to throw crazy money at a free-agent, I'd rather get Parise.
No way no way no way. LW is as crowded a position as there is with McDonald, Perron, Steen and Schwartz as skill guys, and Sobotka there frequently and Grachev under contract. It's the deepest single position in the organization at the moment by a LOT. Wing in general is the deepest spot, with Tarasenko and Rattie as top caliber RW prospects to go along with a bunch of guys whose rights the Blues own or are already under contract.

The need for Parise and the need for a #1 LD are the definition of diametrically opposed priorities. They have a huge gaping hole on that top pairing with Pietrangelo.

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04-16-2012, 02:08 PM
  #95
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Also comparing Jay McKee to Jason Garrison is inexplicable other than they were both defensemen in the NHL.

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04-16-2012, 03:01 PM
  #96
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Honestly, the Blues are in need of at least 2 solid LD, one if Cole proves he is ready to play in the NHL. Jackman's not exactly young, Huskins also up there, Colaiacovo has consistently been the worst player on the team for the majority of the season, and while I like what Russell brings in terms of his skating ability and vision, he's just not big or strong enough to handle the top pairing minutes. There is a glaring weakness for the Blues and it is clearly at LD. Hopefully Army works his magic. I don't see us landing Suter or Garrison, but a couple of guys a tier below them for about the price it would take to sign one of the bigger guys. Starting to miss Rundblad, though I'd take Tarasenko(assuming he comes over soon), any day of the week.

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04-16-2012, 03:05 PM
  #97
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Honestly, the Blues are in need of at least 2 solid LD, one if Cole proves he is ready to play in the NHL. Jackman's not exactly young, Huskins also up there, Colaiacovo has consistently been the worst player on the team for the majority of the season, and while I like what Russell brings in terms of his skating ability and vision, he's just not big or strong enough to handle the top pairing minutes. There is a glaring weakness for the Blues and it is clearly at LD. Hopefully Army works his magic. I don't see us landing Suter or Garrison, but a couple of guys a tier below them for about the price it would take to sign one of the bigger guys. Starting to miss Rundblad, though I'd take Tarasenko(assuming he comes over soon), any day of the week.
Yeah but Rundblad is RD. At the time they made that deal they had EJ, Petro and Polak on the right side and they'd just traded Eller, got Schwartz in the same draft, and hadn't taken Rattie yet, so they needed some offense.

Basically I'm sort of hoping Phoenix moves Gormley the way we moved Rundblad considering how locked in Yandle and OEL are on LD, not to mention a plethora of other guys under contract or whose rights they own who are good NHLers on that side.

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04-16-2012, 03:15 PM
  #98
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Also comparing Jay McKee to Jason Garrison is inexplicable other than they were both defensemen in the NHL.
Hmm, I remember McKee being decently regarded and signing a big contract in St. Louis. I remember he didn't bring enough to the table to justify the contract. Maybe he wasn't brought in to be a top-pairing guy, but I seem to remember him being brought in to be a defensive defenseman to pair with EJ (who then went to college instead).

Again, I'm not saying that I don't WANT Garrison. I'm just worried about overpaying for him. Not only because of that contract, but because of how it will affect the contract negotiations with other players over the course of the contract.

For some reason I was thinking Parise was a RW, my mistake.

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04-16-2012, 03:20 PM
  #99
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If it doesnt happen now it will happen eventually that's for sure
Yup, in two years when both their contracts are up. I seriously doubt either decides to hold-out or go overseas.

Now, if they both keep playing well for the next two seasons, I can see them both wanting raises and the Blues not being able to keep them both.

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04-16-2012, 03:39 PM
  #100
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Yeah but Rundblad is RD. At the time they made that deal they had EJ, Petro and Polak on the right side and they'd just traded Eller, got Schwartz in the same draft, and hadn't taken Rattie yet, so they needed some offense.

Basically I'm sort of hoping Phoenix moves Gormley the way we moved Rundblad considering how locked in Yandle and OEL are on LD, not to mention a plethora of other guys under contract or whose rights they own who are good NHLers on that side.
I really like Gormley as a prospect, but do you really want to hand over a first pairing spot to a rookie on what should be a S.C. contending team?

That would be a sizable risk, even with him playing with Petro. Just seems like that might be asking to much from him.

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