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Old
02-04-2012, 05:23 PM
  #26
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Like I said when I posted the You Tube videos of Kitchen's Florida PK.

Haviland or John Torchetti with Perry Pearn

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02-04-2012, 05:24 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
With Savy as HC the Hawks would be Kings midwest trying to figure out how to get out of 1st round

Q deserves his share of credit for 09 and 2010 teams. To take away all credit from him and say he didn't do a thing is BS

And who are the 9 top 6 forwards?

Kopecky and Brouwer are 4th line talents


What exactly has Haviland shown that makes him a worthy coach?
See, it's things like this that you just scratch your head over. How many 4th liners score 10+ goals every year since joining the league? How many 4th liners score 15+ goals three sraight years?

I was never a fan of Kopecky, I absolutely hated the way he was used on this team but even I can recognize he's better than your average 4th liner.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:24 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by BBSeabs27 View Post
Yes. The answer to a few game slump is to fire coach q. you're absolutely right. He didn't pull our team out of the gutter and lead to us a cup at all. While we're at it, lets fire Bowman! He hasn't given us s***! All he's done is pick apart the deepest stanley cup winning team in decades. D*** all the hawks brass! fire them all! we're losing!
5 wins in 15 games in 2012 is a few game slump?


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02-04-2012, 05:27 PM
  #29
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Start small.

Fire Kitchen, bring Torch back from Houston.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
5 wins in 15 games in 2012 is a few game slump?

Again, spin it any way you want, this team is not that bad. This is their lowest point, and as they say, a team is never as good as their best streak or as bad as their worst.

This team has problems, mostly problems that look like they either won't or can't be addressed in season though.

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02-04-2012, 05:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Start small.

Fire Kitchen, bring Torch back from Houston.
That's assuming he wants to come back.. I don't think he does. It never made sense for him to leave in the first place if he was content with being an assistant coach.

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02-04-2012, 05:29 PM
  #32
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If there is a strength from Quenneville, is that he is very good in developing young players for a long time now. I'll use Leddy as an example (since the OP did) as he has handled him very well IMO furthering along his defensive game. It's a shame Leddy has to learn on the fly like this with a playoff team (gets more scrutinized than Keith, Seabs, etc. when the team was still in the dark stage) but Leddy will be better in the long run at his age. Not a fan of Kitchen or Bowman, and even I don't agree with Q's system or philosophies at times (can't do the same things you did when the team is deep Q) but I have no issues with him if this team doesn't quit changing it's puck possession style (which falls on Bowman and the front office).

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02-04-2012, 05:30 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Again, spin it any way you want, this team is not that bad. This is their lowest point, and as they say, a team is never as good as their best streak or as bad as their worst.

This team has problems, mostly problems that look like they either won't or can't be addressed in season though.
Your posts are inconsistent. Do you support this coaching staff or not? Enough of the flip flopping.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:31 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Start small.

Fire Kitchen, bring Torch back from Houston.
The coaching is on Quenneville. You either fire him or you do nothing.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:33 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by clydesdale line View Post
If there is a strength from Quenneville, is that he is very good in developing young players for a long time now. I'll use Leddy as an example (since the OP did) as he has handled him very well IMO furthering along his defensive game. It's a shame Leddy has to learn on the fly like this with a playoff team (gets more scrutinized than Keith, Seabs, etc. when the team was still in the dark stage) but Leddy will be better in the long run at his age. Not a fan of Kitchen or Bowman, and even I don't agree with Q's system or philosophies at times (can't do the same things you did when the team is deep Q) but I have no issues with him if this team doesn't quit changing it's puck possession style.
Leddy's defensive game has only gotten WORSE as this season has gone on. Q is completely misusing him. He is playing him to his weaknesses, instead of his strengths. What games are you watching?

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02-04-2012, 05:34 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
The coaching is on Quenneville. You either fire him or you do nothing.
If it really has to be that way (and it doesn't), then do nothing.

You don't fire your SC-winning coach after a bad January.

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02-04-2012, 05:36 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Pez68 View Post
And they made the playoffs because another team lost their last game.
I was at the Detroit game that day and I don't recall ever cheering for a team to lose as intensely as I was Dallas haha.

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02-04-2012, 05:37 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Your posts are inconsistent. Do you support this coaching staff or not? Enough of the flip flopping.
My posts aren't inconsistent.

The way the Hawks play the game defensively is a joke. There's no two ways about it. Regardless of that, they aren't as bad as they've shown the past 5 games. I've been pointing out the flaws in the way we've been playing this year for a long time, but at this point, I have a hard time believing it will change, unfortunately. So, what can you do? Joel Quenneville seems to be their guy, and for the most part, I don't mind him. I really dislike the constant line juggling and I even went as far as to question him during the Cup year, without much support.. but I'm much more concerned with Kitchen than Q, as it seems since he's arrived this team has taken a nose dive in every defensive category.

But with all that being said, when people keep going on about a losing streak, talking about missing the playoffs, being sellers at the trade deadline, it's a tad ridiculous.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:40 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
If it really has to be that way (and it doesn't), then do nothing.

You don't fire your SC-winning coach after a bad January.
But what about a disappointing followup year to the SC win...and then another rough year following that? This is more than just this bad month.

But to me the biggest thing is the effort level. We all saw this Hawks team quit during the Oiler game and it happened in November as well? Has Q lost this team? Do we need a Mike Keenan type coach?

Or maybe a lot of us are overreacting...I'm not denying that could be true.

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02-04-2012, 05:40 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
And the fire Q crowd will be disappointed ,, Coaches aren't fired when there track record with team is

- Loss in WCF in 5 games (2 OT losses)
- Won cup
- Lost in 1st round vs #1 seed in 7 games (OT in game 7) with cap gutted team
With alot of injuries with the Canucks damn near healthy (minus Malhotra) which alot of people always forget and Canuck or fans from other teams never bring up. Bolland (concussion) Seabrook (concussion) Brouwer (torn shoulder) Bickell (lacerated wrist) Kane (broken wrist) Kopecky (can't remember his injury) and I think even Toews or Hossa had an MCL sprain etc. etc. but you get the point. Some missed time during that series or some didn't even play at all during it and had to play two rookies (Smith and Kruger) and guys like Johnson and Scott cause of the lack of depth. I still think it's amazing that they sent that series to seven, in the first round at that.

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02-04-2012, 05:46 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
My posts aren't inconsistent.

The way the Hawks play the game defensively is a joke. There's no two ways about it. Regardless of that, they aren't as bad as they've shown the past 5 games. I've been pointing out the flaws in the way we've been playing this year for a long time, but at this point, I have a hard time believing it will change, unfortunately. So, what can you do? Joel Quenneville seems to be their guy, and for the most part, I don't mind him. I really dislike the constant line juggling and I even went as far as to question him during the Cup year, without much support.. but I'm much more concerned with Kitchen than Q, as it seems since he's arrived this team has taken a nose dive in every defensive category.

But with all that being said, when people keep going on about a losing streak, talking about missing the playoffs, being sellers at the trade deadline, it's a tad ridiculous.
This team has a huge cushion and will make the playoffs regardless of what happens the last 2 months.

I agree with most of what you say - but in the end it's on Quenneville, not Kitchen or Haviland.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:49 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Pez68 View Post
Leddy's defensive game has only gotten WORSE as this season has gone on. Q is completely misusing him. He is playing him to his weaknesses, instead of his strengths. What games are you watching?
Maybe that's how a 21 year old gets better at defense is to.. I don't know.. develop him there? You want Q to start teaching him that side of the area when he's 24-25? The guy's defensive game is miles better than it was in Rockford/cup of tea in NHL last season. He'll be fine. Like I said, it's unfortunate for him that he has to take his lumps with the team vying for the cup.

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02-04-2012, 05:51 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydesdale line View Post
With alot of injuries with the Canucks damn near healthy (minus Malhotra) which alot of people always forget and Canuck or fans from other teams never bring up. Bolland (concussion) Seabrook (concussion) Brouwer (torn shoulder) Bickell (lacerated wrist) Kane (broken wrist) Kopecky (can't remember his injury) and I think even Toews or Hossa had an MCL sprain etc. etc. but you get the point. Some missed time during that series or some didn't even play at all during it and had to play two rookies (Smith and Kruger) and guys like Johnson and Scott cause of the lack of depth. I still think it's amazing that they sent that series to seven, in the first round at that.
And maybe if that team is well coached, they don't back into the playoffs and finish 8th? A couple more wins, they finish in 4th. Then maybe they don't see Vancouver until the WCF, and it's a completely different story when healthy... That entire playoffs could have turned out much differently if the Hawks didn't **** the bed all season. How easily that is overlooked. And now, with a team that is, on paper, better than last year's team, I see the same problems. I see the same crap that is going to have this team backing into the playoffs again this season. I see the same lack of defensive system. I see the same chaotic and inconsistent power play. I see the same terrible PK. I see the same misuse of players, and lack of chemistry. CONSISTENT special teams are often the difference in 4-5 games a season. I can recall at least three games where a timely PP goal or successful penalty kill is the difference in the game already this season. Little things make a HUGE difference over an 82 game season. Coaching is everything.

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Old
02-04-2012, 05:54 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
But what about a disappointing followup year to the SC win...and then another rough year following that? This is more than just this bad month.

But to me the biggest thing is the effort level. We all saw this Hawks team quit during the Oiler game and it happened in November as well? Has Q lost this team? Do we need a Mike Keenan type coach?

Or maybe a lot of us are overreacting...I'm not denying that could be true.
Yeah, last year was rough. Q had a tough roster to manage, with deadweights like Pisani, Turco, Dowell, and Skille to start the year, combined with a Cup hangover and nothing even resembling a 3rd pairing to speak of.

Q was a little crazy to overplay Keith in October, but Keith admit that he was also to blame. Q showed no hesitation in giving Crawford the starting job, and our PP and ES play were both near the top of the league. The PK sucked, but again, that's on Kitchen; our PK was fantastic in the Cup year when Torch coached it. In the playoffs, it took some time, but Q managed to get this team off its ass -- through several key injuries, mind you -- and nearly brought us to one of the greatest comebacks in NHL history.

Even this year, we were at the top of the league just a few weeks ago. But now that seems to have been lost on everyone. The top seed is still well within reach; we're only six points out from it with more than 20 games left to play.

But still, we hit a slump, so no one cares. Yeah, let's fire Q.

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02-04-2012, 05:55 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post

Q deserves his share of credit for 09 and 2010 teams. To take away all credit from him and say he didn't do a thing is BS Agreed.

Kopecky and Brouwer are 4th line talents
They may have been 4th line talents here because of how deep we were. Been keeping tabs on Brouwer? He's playing great in WSH w/ 15G 11A, 5 were GW and 3 on the PP, and ranked 3rd on their team in shooting % (correct me if im wrong, I know the stats are right but, 2nd line?) Though, Kopecky's numbers aren't as good.

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02-04-2012, 05:56 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
But what about a disappointing followup year to the SC win...and then another rough year following that? This is more than just this bad month.
.
Did you miss the cap purge last year? And this year still has 29 games remaining, so maybe we should refrain from calling it a "rough year" just yet.

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02-04-2012, 05:56 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by clydesdale line View Post
Maybe that's how a 21 year old gets better at defense is to.. I don't know.. develop him there? You want Q to start teaching him that side of the area when he's 24-25? The guy's defensive game is miles better than it was in Rockford/cup of tea in NHL last season. He'll be fine. Like I said, it's unfortunate for him that he has to take his lumps with the team vying for the cup.
Constantly putting him in a position to fail, instead of succeed, is also a good way to ruin his confidence. I see a much less confident Leddy now, than I did earlier in the season. He used to rush the puck, gain the zone, make great outlet passes. He's not doing any of that now. He needs to be off the PK. Period. His skillset is not suited to the PK. He also needs to be getting PP time, so he can build some confidence, and do what he's best at. Q is NOTORIOUS for trying to make players fit into a role they are not suited for, and there is no better example than Nick Leddy. Frolik on the 4th line? Stalberg on the 4th line? Bickell as a shutdown forward? Kane as a center? Bolland not used as the #2 center? Campbell not used on the PP, but used on the PK? Sharp on the point on the PP? Montador at forward on the PP? I could go on and on all day with this.

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02-04-2012, 06:09 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
If it really has to be that way (and it doesn't), then do nothing.

You don't fire your SC-winning coach after a bad January.
Thank you. What I've been trying to say.

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02-04-2012, 06:09 PM
  #49
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This is the most factually accurate thing I have ever read. Bravo.

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02-04-2012, 06:17 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Yeah, last year was rough. Q had a tough roster to manage, with deadweights like Pisani, Turco, Dowell, and Skille to start the year, combined with a Cup hangover and nothing even resembling a 3rd pairing to speak of.

Q was a little crazy to overplay Keith in October, but Keith admit that he was also to blame. Q showed no hesitation in giving Crawford the starting job, and our PP and ES play were both near the top of the league. The PK sucked, but again, that's on Kitchen; our PK was fantastic in the Cup year when Torch coached it. In the playoffs, it took some time, but Q managed to get this team off its ass -- through several key injuries, mind you -- and nearly brought us to one of the greatest comebacks in NHL history.

Even this year, we were at the top of the league just a few weeks ago. But now that seems to have been lost on everyone. The top seed is still well within reach; we're only six points out from it with more than 20 games left to play.

But still, we hit a slump, so no one cares. Yeah, let's fire Q.
There were a number of people back in November on a different message board that were seeing a number of the points in the original post and were already calling for Q's head. This was when the team was near the top of the standings. Before the Blues got Hitchcock, etc. Now that they are playing as horrible as they are, yeah, the calls are getting louder, naturally.

I get the whole loyalty thing after the Cup and how it'll be tough for the organization to fire him. I also agree that Kitchen may be responsible for a fair share of the bad coaching. But Q has to take responsibility for that. For bringing Kitchen in for the assistant job based on the fact he's buddy buddy with him, Q deserves some of the blame.

Last year was not a great coaching job, I'm sorry. Too many points crapped away in the third period early in the year. They should have never been in the dogfight they were in to make the playoffs. Backed into the playoffs because Dallas choked on the last day. The comeback in the playoffs had nothing to do with any tactical genius, the pride of the core and hatred of a bitter rival took over. Last year everyone got a pass though due to the massive roster turnover and fatigue due to the short offseason and that's fair enough, I give everyone a pass for last year as well.

As I've said before, if people think this team has been well-coached this year, pass me what you're smoking. Whether it's Kitchen or whomever, the buck stops with Q. I get the loyalty for past success and the fact there might not be an ideal replacement out there as reasons to keep him around. But let's not pretend he's doing a good job this season.

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