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Burke's Team - Not what he promised

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:44 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
The fact is we are young and can't be held responsible for anything we do, Gatorade.

Once Gardiner reaches the average NHL age of defence, we can start pointing the finger at the coach and GM. I just hope we don't give roster spots to rookies, otherwise back to square one we go. Until then, we can rest comfortably behind our average age of players, no matter how many games of hockey they have played.

Oh and the Rangers are an outlier. Del Zotto, McDonagh, Staal, and Stralman are holding them back, because of their young average age. They could be way better.
I do find it strange that people complain about age when the league is getting younger every year. Nobody complaining about Kessel's age. lol

Lets face it.. maybe the GM is just really good at lying to people.

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02-13-2012, 12:49 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
I do find it strange that people complain about age when the league is getting younger every year. Nobody complaining about Kessel's age. lol

Lets face it.. maybe the GM is just really good at lying to people.
Didn't you hear? Burke could have made the playoffs if he wanted to 2 years ago!

He just didn't want to trade the kids!

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Im not paid to get in the playoffs, Burke said. I want to win a championship here. Getting into the playoffs we could have done that last year. We could have traded our young players and gotten in last year for a couple of 30-year-olds. We could have gotten in the year before, too, I believe, if we traded all the kids.

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02-13-2012, 12:55 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Didn't you hear? Burke could have made the playoffs if he wanted to 2 years ago!

He just didn't want to trade the kids!
Yeah read that before. Burke actually believes what he says sometimes but I think it is mostly that he likes to hear himself talk and watch the clips on the tube during dinner.

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02-13-2012, 01:00 PM
  #429
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A lot of people always talk about Toronto being the "youngest" team in the league. A lot of that has to do with a constricted range of ages though. We have barely anyone 30+. The OLDEST guy on the team is 32 (Liles), with only a handful of other guys between 30-32 (Connolly/Komi).

But how many rookies do we have? Gardiner is the only one at the moment. Frattin/Colborne/Kadri/Aulie have had short stints up here, but none of them have been mainstays for the whole year.

Players in important positions? The youngest guy in our top 6 is Kessel, and he's 24 and in his 6th NHL season. After Gardiner, Schenn is our youngest defenseman, but he's in his 4th NHL season, and he's not even playing a top 4 role. He barely plays the PK, doesn't play the PP, and is mostly used as a bottom pairing guy. I don't think you can argue that his age is restricting our D corps.

Is our team in general young? Yes.

But a lot of people look at average age and that's it. I would say Edmonton is a much younger team, going by their core players. Their OLDEST guy on their top line is 21 (Eberle) and only in his 2nd NHL season. That's a far cry from our youngest guy on our top line, who is 24 with 6 NHL seasons.

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02-13-2012, 01:03 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
A lot of people always talk about Toronto being the "youngest" team in the league. A lot of that has to do with a constricted range of ages though. We have barely anyone 30+. The OLDEST guy on the team is 32 (Liles), with only a handful of other guys between 30-32 (Connolly/Komi).

But how many rookies do we have? Gardiner is the only one at the moment. Frattin/Colborne/Kadri/Aulie have had short stints up here, but none of them have been mainstays for the whole year.

Players in important positions? The youngest guy in our top 6 is Kessel, and he's 24 and in his 6th NHL season. After Gardiner, Schenn is our youngest defenseman, but he's in his 4th NHL season, and he's not even playing a top 4 role. He barely plays the PK, doesn't play the PP, and is mostly used as a bottom pairing guy. I don't think you can argue that his age is restricting our D corps.

Is our team in general young? Yes.

But a lot of people look at average age and that's it. I would say Edmonton is a much younger team, going by their core players. Their OLDEST guy on their top line is 21 (Eberle) and only in his 2nd NHL season. That's a far cry from our youngest guy on our top line, who is 24 with 6 NHL seasons.
Well done. Leafs TV didn't get you!

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02-13-2012, 01:10 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
How can he get less when he is still in his 20's and already making 6.5?
What does age have to do with anything? It's his performance. He's not worth his current contract. And he doesn't automatically get an increase in salary.

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02-13-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
A lot of people always talk about Toronto being the "youngest" team in the league. A lot of that has to do with a constricted range of ages though. We have barely anyone 30+. The OLDEST guy on the team is 32 (Liles), with only a handful of other guys between 30-32 (Connolly/Komi).

But how many rookies do we have? Gardiner is the only one at the moment. Frattin/Colborne/Kadri/Aulie have had short stints up here, but none of them have been mainstays for the whole year.

Players in important positions? The youngest guy in our top 6 is Kessel, and he's 24 and in his 6th NHL season. After Gardiner, Schenn is our youngest defenseman, but he's in his 4th NHL season, and he's not even playing a top 4 role. He barely plays the PK, doesn't play the PP, and is mostly used as a bottom pairing guy. I don't think you can argue that his age is restricting our D corps.

Is our team in general young? Yes.

But a lot of people look at average age and that's it. I would say Edmonton is a much younger team, going by their core players. Their OLDEST guy on their top line is 21 (Eberle) and only in his 2nd NHL season. That's a far cry from our youngest guy on our top line, who is 24 with 6 NHL seasons.
Very good post indeed. Youngest team in the league really doesn't mean much when the difference between teams' average ages is literally months...I will give examples....NHL's youngest Teams average ages..

Preds...26.075
Lanche..26.142
Canes...26.325
Jets....26.344
Leafs...26.365
Sens....26.486
Sabres..26.503
Oilers...26.631
Jackets..26.814
Hawks...26.816
Kings...26.974
Wild....26.983


As you can see how tight the average ages are and one transaction (call-up, injury, trade, waiver) can change the average age game to game. Some nights the Leafs are the youngest team and others they are not.. So what? There are 12 teams on this list that they average ages all within 1 year of each other. The average age chart is tighter than the playoff races.

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02-13-2012, 01:33 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Very good post indeed.
Lowest: Preds...26.075
Leafs...26.365
Highest: Wild....26.983.
I never looked at it this way, but who really would argue with a straight face that a 27 year old has that much more experience then a 26 year old. It might be relevant if the difference was 27 years old versus 20 year old but that is not even the case.

This sounds more like talent level (the GM) and coaching effectiveness (the coach).
And nothing to do with age.

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02-13-2012, 01:35 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by dream team43 View Post
What does age have to do with anything? It's his performance. He's not worth his current contract. And he doesn't automatically get an increase in salary.
I am sure Brian Burke disagrees.

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02-13-2012, 01:42 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
I am sure Brian Burke disagrees.
I'm sure he doesn't and no one else does

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02-13-2012, 01:45 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Didn't you hear? Burke could have made the playoffs if he wanted to 2 years ago!

He just didn't want to trade the kids!
He's actually said the the last two years, it just proves the attention span is your ally in T.O.

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02-13-2012, 01:50 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by dream team43 View Post
I'm sure he doesn't and no one else does
Brian Burke thinks Dion is an elite D man. Dion will get a raise. You just know it!

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02-13-2012, 02:40 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Very good post indeed. Youngest team in the league really doesn't mean much when the difference between teams' average ages is literally months...I will give examples....NHL's youngest Teams average ages..

Preds...26.075
Lanche..26.142
Canes...26.325
Jets....26.344
Leafs...26.365
Sens....26.486
Sabres..26.503
Oilers...26.631
Jackets..26.814
Hawks...26.816
Kings...26.974
Wild....26.983


As you can see how tight the average ages are and one transaction (call-up, injury, trade, waiver) can change the average age game to game. Some nights the Leafs are the youngest team and others they are not.. So what? There are 12 teams on this list that they average ages all within 1 year of each other. The average age chart is tighter than the playoff races.

of the 12 youngest teams, only 5 are sitting in a playoff position, one of which is us.

there are 18 older teams not listed because they don't fit the argument.

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02-13-2012, 03:10 PM
  #439
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of the 12 youngest teams, only 5 are sitting in a playoff position, one of which is us.

there are 18 older teams not listed because they don't fit the argument.
No actually..couldn't cut and paste from the website....but there are many more teams in the 27-28 year range.

NYR...27.047
Blues...27.12
Philly...27.159
Habs....27.462
Bruins...27.577
NYI...27.651
Ducks....27.746
Caps.....27.777
Nucks....27.793
Flames...28.035
Sharks.....28.17
Pens......28.179
Stars.....28.228
Bolts.....28.379
NJD.......28.424
Yotes.....28.503
FLA....28.676
Wings...29.326

There you have it wiseguy....the entire league. The top NHL team at the moment is the oldest team. The defending Cup champs are the 14th oldest team. The rebuilding Isles are the 6th oldest team...and furthermore there are a total of 15 NHL teams within ONE year of the Leafs average age. 50% of NHL teams are within 1 year of the average age of the Leafs.

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02-13-2012, 03:22 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
No actually..couldn't cut and paste from the website....but there are many more teams in the 27-28 year range.

NYR...27.047
Blues...27.12
Philly...27.159
Habs....27.462
Bruins...27.577
NYI...27.651
Ducks....27.746
Caps.....27.777
Nucks....27.793
Flames...28.035
Sharks.....28.17
Pens......28.179
Stars.....28.228
Bolts.....28.379
NJD.......28.424
Yotes.....28.503
FLA....28.676
Wings...29.326

There you have it wiseguy....the entire league. The top NHL team at the moment is the oldest team. The defending Cup champs are the 14th oldest team. The rebuilding Isles are the 6th oldest team...and furthermore there are a total of 15 NHL teams within ONE year of the Leafs average age. 50% of NHL teams are within 1 year of the average age of the Leafs.
Who you calling a wiseguy....

But the wings, at 3 1/2 years AVERAGE age older, are a lot older and more experienced than the Leafs.

Interesting looking at teams close to the oldest in the league who are not in the playoff hunt...that's got to sting like....actually I still remember what that stings like....

Younger teams probably get better with age, older teams probably get worse with age...I like where the Leafs are sitting.

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02-13-2012, 03:35 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
How many times has Detroit traded a 2nd overall, 9th overall, and a 32nd overall for a single player in their storied franchise?

What if Detroit traded their late round picks that would become Datsyuk and Zetterberg for fourth liners like Brown, Steckel, and May?

The Leafs are in no way following a Detroit model. Not even in the slightest. Post that on their board and you would probably get infracted.
I didn't know that Burke traded those picks for Kessel. I thought he moved 2 1sts and a 2nd. But what do I know, since hindsight is something that everyone has.

Do you know which forwards Detroit already had when they drafted Zetterberg and Datsyuk?

Some guys by the name of Shanahan and Yzerman. They already had a very firm base in place, so there was no need to get a star player at the time.

But they did need a star forward prior to drafting those guys, and traded the following for him:

Quote:
Detroit Red Wings traded Paul Coffey, Keith Primeau and 1st round selection (Nikos Tselios) in 1997 to the Hartford Whalers for Brendan Shanahan and Brian Glynn.


Looks to me like Detroit traded a crap ton, including a high draft pick to get a star forward.

When Burke took over, our best forward was Antro. The only bright spot on the team was Toskala, Kaberle, Kubina and a few others, and we had just picked two good young players in Schenn and Kadri.

He made the Kessel trade because of two reasons:

1) The team had a solid tender, some good defensive players, and some good secondary scoring. Along with that squad, he added two more top 4 d's with a record of success. In that situation, you would have to think adding a top 15 forward would definitely give u a good shot at making the playoffs.


And if Toskala hadn't crapped the bed that year, I firmly believe we would have finished some where between 10th - 18th overall.

2) We did not have any marquee forward, or forward prospect what-so-ever. You can't just sit on your hands and wait for one of your prospect to miraculously turn into a 1st liner.

The only other alternative was to sell, and suck ass to get a top pick, which Burke has said he is against from day 1.

What Detroit did was first build a strong front office, make timely trades, stay competitive, and draft well.

What Burke has done is build a strong front office, make timely trades, tried to stay competitive, and put in a lot of resources towards drafting well.

How is it that you don't see what he's doing?

What you're doing is finding specific details, and saying why everything he does is not like Detroit, which is completely ludicrous.

He's following a model, not copy everything they do.

People just cant see past the end of their noses.

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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
Patience is not just about Burke's draft picks. It's about a team finding chemistry, and letting guys like Gardiner and Schenn, Gunnar and Franson on defence and Kulemin, MacA, Kadri and Frattin learn what it takes to compete and get better everyday. Look back at Grabo's career as a Leaf and how inconsistent that guy was. He's sure matured and learned and now he's a guy nobody wants to lose.
Completely agree with you. I was just pointing out one of the reasons why team is not complete yet.


Last edited by Chandrashekhar Limit: 02-13-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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02-13-2012, 03:39 PM
  #442
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Youngest team should be measured by something like:

# of players ~22 or younger (bit older for goalies) and in their ~first/second seasons in meaningful positions and having played 75% + of the games this season.

i.e. Top 6 forwards, top 4 defenders, starting goaltenders. Top PK/PP unit.

Because when you're using youth as an excuse for:

1) Younger players are prone to mistakes - If those young players aren't in meaningful positions, does it really matter?

2) Younger players have more potential to improve, therefore average age means this team will improve - There's a BIG difference between a 20 year old playing their 1st season and a 24 year old playing their 5th season in terms of acclimating to the NHL and still having room to grow. Also, some players when they're young play as bottom pair D, 3rd/4th line forwards, back up goalies, etc. But that's also their career potential. So a player being young doesn't necessarily mean there will be significant improvement down the line.

Point is, outside of Gardiner and Reimer, the Leafs don't really have any young AND inexperienced players in meaningful positions. We have a lot of players in the 24-27 age range, that may show some limited improvement, but for the most part are fairly close to their potential. Do I think the Leafs will improve in the coming years? Yes. Do I think Schenn will improve in the coming years? Yes, but I think the potential to improve is not as much as a younger player with less NHL experience on another team who's also playing a more important role than Schenn is currently.

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02-13-2012, 03:41 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Youngest team should be measured by something like:

# of players ~22 or younger (bit older for goalies) and in their ~first/second seasons in meaningful positions and having played 75% + of the games this season.

i.e. Top 6 forwards, top 4 defenders, starting goaltenders. Top PK/PP unit.

Because when you're using youth as an excuse for:

1) Younger players are prone to mistakes - If those young players aren't in meaningful positions, does it really matter?

2) Younger players have more potential to improve, therefore average age means this team will improve - There's a BIG difference between a 20 year old playing their 1st season and a 24 year old playing their 5th season in terms of acclimating to the NHL and still having room to grow. Also, some players when they're young play as bottom pair D, 3rd/4th line forwards, back up goalies, etc. But that's also their career potential. So a player being young doesn't necessarily mean there will be significant improvement down the line.

Point is, outside of Gardiner and Reimer, the Leafs don't really have any young AND inexperienced players in meaningful positions. We have a lot of players in the 24-27 age range, that may show some limited improvement, but for the most part are fairly close to their potential. Do I think the Leafs will improve in the coming years? Yes. Do I think Schenn will improve in the coming years? Yes, but I think the potential to improve is not as much as a younger player with less NHL experience on another team who's also playing a more important role than Schenn is currently.
Holy crap they're old. Trade em for picks.

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02-13-2012, 03:44 PM
  #444
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Only 22 and younger should be considered young?

I've heard it all today.

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02-13-2012, 03:45 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
I didn't know that Burke traded those picks for Kessel. I thought he moved 2 1sts and a 2nd. But what do I know, since hindsight is something that everyone has.

Do you know which forwards Detroit already had when they drafted Zetterberg and Datsyuk?

Some guys by the name of Shanahan and Yzerman. They already had a very firm base in place, so there was no need to get a star player at the time.

But they did need a star forward prior to drafting those guys, and traded the following for him:



Looks to me like Detroit traded a crap ton, including a high draft pick to get a star forward.

When Burke took over, our best forward was Antro. The only bright spot on the team was Toskala, Kaberle, Kubina and a few others, and we had just picked two good young players in Schenn and Kadri.

He the Kessel trade because of two reasons:
1) The team had a solid tender, some good defensive players, and some good secondary scoring. In that situation, you would have to think adding a top 15 forward would definitely give u a good shot at making the playoffs.

And if Toskala hadn't crapped the bed that year, I firmly believe we would have finished some where between 10th - 18th overall.

2) We did not have any marquee forward, or forward prospect what-so-ever. You can't just sit on your hands and wait for one of your prospect to miraculously turn into a 1st liner.

The only other alternative was to sell, and suck ass to get a top pick, which Burke has said he is against from day 1.

What Detroit did was first build a strong front office, stay competitive, and draft well.

What Burke has done is build a strong front office, tried to stay competitive, and put in a lot of resources towards drafting well.

How is it that you don't see what he's doing?

What you're doing is finding specific details, and saying why everything he does is not like Detroit, which is completely ludicrous.

He's following a model, and copying everything they do.

People just cant see past the end of their nose.



Completely agree with you. I was just pointing out one of the reasons why team is not complete yet.
I agree with this, but I will add that although forward progress is there, as far as the bolded goes, Burke continues to (at least publicly) overvalue his goaltending. I don't know how he is within his inner circle, but publicly he's always said he's happy with the situation. He has continually been wrong in that regard, including every year in Toronto, made a questionable call re-signing Giguere for a $7M contract (you can argue he was coming off an amazing year but still a hard call at the time with the organization's depth and in hindsight awful move that cost them), and pretty much his entire tenure in Vancouver.

That is the one problem I've had with his tenure in Toronto, but it is something that is totally fixable and I like how he's shored up the other positions. We aren't a contending team yet but the blueprint is there. Lots of depth and youth on forward and defense, but still not quite there and missing some pieces. In my mind, No. 1 Center, No. 1 Goalie, and some spots that can be filled through developing what we have which include another top six with size, another defensive forward and another top pairing defender.

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02-13-2012, 05:08 PM
  #446
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People change.

End of thread.

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02-13-2012, 09:24 PM
  #447
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http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_AverageAge.php

We are the youngest on average over games played,and youth used in those games actually. Click weighted average.

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02-13-2012, 10:58 PM
  #448
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I look at the standings, and we're still in 8th. I'm not sure what the chicken little act is all about, but you guys are sure having fun running w/ it.

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02-13-2012, 11:47 PM
  #449
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Interesting.

If you ignore all of Burke's tank picks in the top three, since we've established we're never going to pick there again, he's only drafted Kesler, Legace, Bieksa, Umberger, Marek Malik, Nolan Pratt, Bryan Allen, Jarkko Ruutu. Perhaps Kadri, Gardiner, and Beleskey can be comfortably be added to the list.

That's about an 8-11 players who have been drafted outside of the top 3 and reached everyday status in the NHL under Burke's scouting watch. In the 15 drafts he participated in, with about 115 players picked, that amounts to about a 7-10% "success" rate, depending on one's own standards for such performance.

Can an old dog learn new drafting, scouting, and developmental tricks? Stay tuned in the next 2-3 years!

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02-14-2012, 12:00 AM
  #450
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Interesting.

If you ignore all of Burke's tank picks in the top three, since we've established we're never going to pick there again, he's only drafted Kesler, Legace, Bieksa, Umberger, Marek Malik, Nolan Pratt, Bryan Allen, Jarkko Ruutu. Perhaps Kadri, Gardiner, and Beleskey can be comfortably be added to the list.

That's about an 8-11 players who have been drafted outside of the top 3 and reached everyday status in the NHL under Burke's scouting watch. In the 15 drafts he participated in, with about 115 players picked, that amounts to about a 7-10% "success" rate, depending on one's own standards for such performance.

Can an old dog learn new drafting, scouting, and developmental tricks? Stay tuned in the next 2-3 years!
So Burke is a below average drafter compared to other GMs.

But in Toronto, he has the world biggest nhl scouting team and an army of assistant GMs. Let's see if that is enough to bump him to average.

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