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Burke's Team - Not what he promised

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Old
02-06-2012, 11:19 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Link?
DO posted a link a few days or a week ago and you still defended agreeing with the deals .

Regardless , you agree with every move any of the Leafs brass have made or at least try to justify them . Why are trying to act like you don't ?

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02-06-2012, 11:29 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Dayjobdave View Post
It's like you're rooting against the Leafs to validate your agenda. In case you're wondering, that's not very appealing.
My agenda is that i want the Leafs to win the cup . I couldn't care less who the coach or GM is and i'm not rooting for the team to succed just to defend Burke's accelerated re-build strategy .

I'm a life long Leafs fan ( i'm in my 40's ) and i will be a fan of this team till i'm gone . I was here before Burke and i will be here after him , like most of the Leaf fans on this board .

There's a difference between supporting the team and supporting the gm's EVERY MOVE . If someone knocks one of our players does that mean his wants the team to lose ? Why is this so different than trying to look objectivly at the job Burkes doing .

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02-06-2012, 11:32 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Because they were picks when the trade was made?

Can I borrow your crystal ball sometime??
Did i need a crystal ball to know that the picks were actually going to turn into players ?

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02-06-2012, 11:35 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
How about adding Segs and Hamilton instead us just saying picks . Still nothing in your opinion i guess . Not surprising really coming from you .
It looks like he started with a bad NHL roster and the draft picks every other team starts with. I wouldn't consider that much to work with. Do you feel that it was a strong roster he took over? Did Burke inherit more picks than other teams? If so, how many more?


Last edited by ULF_55: 02-06-2012 at 11:45 AM. Reason: punctuation is OT
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02-06-2012, 11:36 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Did i need a crystal ball to know that the picks were actually going to turn into players ?
You'd need the crystal ball to know it was going to be Seguin and Hamilton, Captain Hindsight.

P.S. I'm working on compiling a list of cup winners, cup finalists, and conference finalists from 2000-2001 through to 2010-2011 (the last ten seasons, including pre- and post-lockout) to see just how many homegrown, first round and top ten picks are on each roster. Fun fact: in 2000-2001, there were a grand total of three top 10 picks playing for the teams that drafted them in the Final Four. Those players? Scott Niedermayer, Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr.

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02-06-2012, 11:37 AM
  #131
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Seguin at 19 has surpassed Kessel as a Franchise player.
Its not even close ...

I dont' know why anyone would argue that, the trade is done... Let it go people.... We got a good player in return unlike in the past, Kurvers for Neids, Rask for Raycroft, etc etc.

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02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
He results have been average.
He is fine human being but his results to date have been average.
Not like average like he failed or is incompetent but mediocre.
One of the youngest teams in the League with no core pieces on the downswing currently in the playoffs and decent asset pool in the minors. That seems like the makings of the upswing of a good rebuild to me.

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02-06-2012, 11:40 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Thanks for that pro-tip, Captain Hindsight.
Hindsight? Hahahahahaha are you new here? There are two beliefs...the guys who think the Kessel trade was good...and those who have been grumbling about it since day one...but yeah hindsight.....sure. And please don't regurgitate the BS. We have all heard it ad nauseam. You may like the Kessel trade but please don't insult those who have opposed it from the beginniing. Count me in the opposing camp, eventhough Kessel is a fine player. The Leafs will inevitably lose that trade, IMO. Right now it looks pretty even going forward but that will change to Bostons favor in years to come. We will see, eh?

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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
That post would be better directed at the other poster who is regurgitating 2007 rosters. Apparently he is happy with a 4 year rebuild. I am not dead horse or not.

Yeah, Burke's done an amazing job at getting the team back to a bubble team. The Burke fanatics will argue that he has "re-stocked" the cupboards for the future. Really, immeasurable accomplishments. I can stock my cupboards with no-name products that may turn out to be good or not...maybe they are just cheap knockoffs that taste second-rate. Who knows? We certainly cannot grade Brian Burke on the future success of the franchise. We can only rate him for what he brings to the current roster. Which is like you said mediocre thus far. Not horrible but not great. Just mediocre.

And then Burke teased us with Lebda and Exelby.
Burke has made his fair share of horrible trades, FA signings and his drafting has yet to be determined. His talent assessment and his goaltending choices have been very questionable to date, IMO.

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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I get tired with this nothing to work with and the cap was in a mess crap .

Kabs , Antro , Schenn , Grabo , Kul , Reims , Gunner , VS , Tlusty , Hayes , Frattin , Kubina were all on our team or in our system . Plus don't forget we still had all our 1st all well as most of our other picks .

You want to talk about bad contracts ? How about Komi , Lombo , Connoly .
I agree with the above. The "empty cupboards" and "nothing to work with" excuses are getting old. Is it another way of saying he didn't walk into an organization where he had some superstar talent and elite goaltending waiting for him where he only needed to add a couple of superstar FA's or make a blockbuster trade to put them over the top? Well perhaps thats why he is amongst the highest paid at his craft. Because people expect him to be better than everyone else.

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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Where did I say pissed? Seriously people read. Think. For the umpteenth time Average: Being intermediate between extremes, as on a scale

He results have been average.
He is fine human being but his results to date have been average.
Not like average like he failed or is incompetent but mediocre.
I agree, I think he has been average...not great. Of course his rating will go up with the Leafs rise in the standings or not. So far the best he has finished is 10th in the East. This year looks like the Leafs have a real shot at anywhere between 6th and 9th. This is possibly the first year of playoffs for Burke/Wilson. The truth is as I see it, is that this team will be spinning its wheels for years to come without a power forward and a top line Centerman along with consistent above average goaltending. It remains to be seen if Burke can land these important pieces to a rather incomplete puzzle to date.

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02-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Hindsight? Hahahahahaha are you new here? There are two beliefs...the guys who think the Kessel trade was good...and those who have been grumbling about it since day one...but yeah hindsight.....sure.
Hey Derpy McGee, the "hindsight" comes in knowing a) exactly where the picks would land and b) exactly what players were available at those picks and selected. If those picks were a little later in the round, you guys wouldn't be as pissed off as you are. You might still think it's a bad trade, but you wouldn't be making me think I should invest in razor blade stocks.

It has absolutely nothing to do with liking the trade or not. I was wary of the trade, too, because I didn't agree with Burke's assessment of the team, but (edit: after seriously mulling it over) I was okay with it because I didn't think it would be that high of a pick. I don't think Burke was penciling those exact names in his decision-making.

So get off your pretentious high horse.

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02-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Espher View Post
You'd need the crystal ball to know it was going to be Seguin and Hamilton, Captain Hindsight.

P.S. I'm working on compiling a list of cup winners, cup finalists, and conference finalists from 2000-2001 through to 2010-2011 (the last ten seasons, including pre- and post-lockout) to see just how many homegrown, first round and top ten picks are on each roster. Fun fact: in 2000-2001, there were a grand total of three top 10 picks playing for the teams that drafted them in the Final Four. Those players? Scott Niedermayer, Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr.
The picks could have also turned out to be Skinner or Larrson . Regardless it wasn't a huge stretch to believe that a team that finished 7th worst back to back wasn't going to improve majicaly overnight .

Does Burke get extra street cred for not using our own top picks to try to win a cup ?

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02-06-2012, 11:44 AM
  #136
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Life - Not What Was Promised

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Old
02-06-2012, 11:46 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Wendelstache View Post
Seguin at 19 has surpassed Kessel as a Franchise player.
Its not even close ...

I dont' know why anyone would argue that, the trade is done... Let it go people.... We got a good player in return unlike in the past, Kurvers for Neids, Rask for Raycroft, etc etc.
This is the perfect way to look at it . However there's too many poster's that can't admit this .

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02-06-2012, 11:47 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
The picks could have also turned out to be Skinner or Larrson . Regardless it wasn't a huge stretch to believe that a team that finished 7th worst back to back wasn't going to improve majicaly overnight .

Does Burke get extra street cred for not using our own top picks to try to win a cup ?
We can move on from the trade, Burke said they talked about worst case scenario and were fine with it. Seldom does worst case apply, but in this case it did.

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02-06-2012, 11:49 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
My agenda is that i want the Leafs to win the cup . I couldn't care less who the coach or GM is and i'm not rooting for the team to succed just to defend Burke's accelerated re-build strategy .

I'm a life long Leafs fan ( i'm in my 40's ) and i will be a fan of this team till i'm gone . I was here before Burke and i will be here after him , like most of the Leaf fans on this board .

There's a difference between supporting the team and supporting the gm's EVERY MOVE . If someone knocks one of our players does that mean his wants the team to lose ? Why is this so different than trying to look objectivly at the job Burkes doing .
Exactly! I could have wrote this post. In fact I did...in the past. Who gives a rats a$$ about Brian Burke and Rotten Ronnie. I actually dislike both guys...before they came to Toronto and still to this day....But I'm bigger than most folks on this board in that, I'm willing to put aside personal dislikes of these two highly over-rated individuals, if they produce results, which quite frankly have not been all that impressive yet. I will happily have a Brian Burke avatar when he makes the Leafs into a perennial contender, much like they were pre-lockout and in the early 90s.

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02-06-2012, 11:51 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
My agenda is that i want the Leafs to win the cup . I couldn't care less who the coach or GM is and i'm not rooting for the team to succed just to defend Burke's accelerated re-build strategy .

I'm a life long Leafs fan ( i'm in my 40's ) and i will be a fan of this team till i'm gone . I was here before Burke and i will be here after him , like most of the Leaf fans on this board .

There's a difference between supporting the team and supporting the gm's EVERY MOVE . If someone knocks one of our players does that mean his wants the team to lose ? Why is this so different than trying to look objectivly at the job Burkes doing .
Well said. I swear it sounds like some people on here are on the leaf payroll and defending everyone of Burke's actions.

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02-06-2012, 11:51 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by forecheck View Post
He promised a tough team that plays on the edge ( see Boston ) and has delivered more of a skating , softer type of team.

Maybe he should "MAN UP" and explain to us his change in direction.. Personally I am sick of his BS.
I always wished the Leafs would pattern themselves as a fast, puck possession team with the ability to score and roll 3 scoring lines, over the top six bottom six mucking team. I love the style of play the Leafs have used this season.

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02-06-2012, 11:53 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
DO posted a link a few days or a week ago and you still defended agreeing with the deals .

Regardless , you agree with every move any of the Leafs brass have made or at least try to justify them . Why are trying to act like you don't ?
Sorry, don't recall. All I have ever said is that I know why the Toskala and Rask trades were made and that is because Ferguson didn't inherit a number one goalie and he was told to try for the playoffs.

So stop with the BS and carry on getting schooled in every argument, as usual.

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02-06-2012, 11:54 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Hey Derpy McGee, the "hindsight" comes in knowing a) exactly where the picks would land and b) exactly what players were available at those picks and selected. If those picks were a little later in the round, you guys wouldn't be as pissed off as you are. You might still think it's a bad trade, but you wouldn't be making me think I should invest in razor blade stocks.

It has absolutely nothing to do with liking the trade or not. I was wary of the trade, too, because I didn't agree with Burke's assessment of the team, but (edit: after seriously mulling it over) I was okay with it because I didn't think it would be that high of a pick. I don't think Burke was penciling those exact names in his decision-making.

So get off your pretentious high horse.
You are on a much higher horse than I my friend. Those who cannot admit their mistakes (or in this case not even your mistakes but those of another person (which makes it even worse) are the pretentious people on a high horse. The point is that a good GM who is rebuilding a bottom feeding team (bottom 10 team) would rarely trade back to back 1st round picks, regardless of who they may potentially be.

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02-06-2012, 12:01 PM
  #144
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One the Kessel for 2 1sts and 2nd (that happened to now look like a great haul), something get missed.

That is, when that trade occurred most people thought (or at least were led to believe) the leafs would be a playoff team or close that year. And certainly not a lottery team.

Someone goofed up - be it Wilson in coaching, Burke and his scouts on talent/goaltending assessment or communication of leaf competitiveness. That aspect of the trade was poor. That is, you don't trade your first rounders unless you certain you are not a lottery team. Trading away your first when you rely on an unproven goalie (Toskala) is risky. Bad risk/reward gamble there.

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02-06-2012, 12:01 PM
  #145
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This is the perfect way to look at it . However there's too many poster's that can't admit this .
Yet Boston being a FAR superior team has nothing to do with his stats in anyway?

I hate sounding like a broken record and all, but can we see what Kessel's production will be like with a TRUE bonafied No #1 Centre before making these rash conclusions on who's the better player?

All I know is that scoring a minimum of 30 goals by being paired up with a mix of 2nd and 3rd liners for the majority of his tenure here is no easy feat.

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02-06-2012, 12:12 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Wendelstache View Post
Seguin at 19 has surpassed Kessel as a Franchise player.
Its not even close ...
I dont' know why anyone would argue that, the trade is done... Let it go people.... We got a good player in return unlike in the past, Kurvers for Neids, Rask for Raycroft, etc etc.
I disagree. It's much easier for Seguin to do well sheltered under the wings of a Cup calibre team. The real test for him comes when Chara and Thomas retire -- these are the two franchise players for Boston, not Seguin. Boston is a totally different team without these two, especially without Chara; Boston's cockiness, gull and balls stem from Chara.

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02-06-2012, 12:13 PM
  #147
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Not going to read the thread but this is my take on the leafs.

How i feel Burke has built this team.

Burke sits down at the beggining of the season with all of his scouts and player development guys and evaluates mostly every player in the league. He then creates a list of desirable players and prospects that he would want on his team if they ever became available. When a player on his list becomes available he does everything in his power to acquire that player. So far he doesnt have an ideal team but as burke refers to it there are multiple stages in a building team The team starts to walk then run and then sprint. As he puts it they are running as of right now. He ads desirable players when he can so he can develope a solid foundation for the team. Once this foundation is set he can start looking to acquire key specific peices to get the team into "sprint mode". Unfortunately it would take to long to wait for a specific peice at a specific time, so he somewhat rolls with the punches. I say this because he signed Komisarek to be his big defenseman, if he had any clue acquiring phaneuf was possible there is absolutely no chance Komisarek gets his contract. He does not wait for the perfect moment or player, he acquires valuable and helpful players to create a foundation of core players, and valuable expendable assets. He works to put himself in the best possible possition to succeed at acquiring core and key players he covets. He would have more powerforwards and gritty players if they would have become available in the passed, however this is not the case. If you over pay for a player at an in opportune time it hurts the overal organization. Burke waits until the perfect time to acquire a player and that time just has not come yet in terms of size and strentgh in the top 6.

Lets all just be patient because burke is setting us up for the long haul not just the current season.

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02-06-2012, 12:16 PM
  #148
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I disagree. It's much easier for Seguin to do well sheltered under the wings of a Cup calibre team. The real test for him comes when Chara and Thomas retire -- these are the two franchise players for Boston, not Seguin. Boston is a totally different team without these two, especially without Chara; Boston's cockiness, gull and balls stem from Chara.
Agreed.

The presence of Chara alone gives off the perception that they're not to be ****** with.

However take Chara off, and they're just an slightly above-average tough team.

Nothing that Brown or Rosey couldn't handle themselves if it came down to it.

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02-06-2012, 12:18 PM
  #149
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You'd need the crystal ball to know it was going to be Seguin and Hamilton, Captain Hindsight.
How come Burke get's to use the 20/20 hindsight excuse on the Kessel trade.

But JFJ trading Rask for Raycroft and 1st for Toskala (both who were having amazing rookie years) is all about JFJ being a terrible GM. And not hindsight.

Both were unlucky and poor at assessing goalies.
Both failed to take the team to playoffs in 3 years.

That said, Burke's current leaf roster/prospect pool looks to be better then JFJ.
That is positive for the future but we had 3 years of terrible hockey. And if JFJ got an average NHL goalie his team he would have made playoffs just like Burke is with Reimer/Monster this year.

We can argue this anyway we want. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the same thing that matters on the ice - who wins.

Go Leafs Go.

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02-06-2012, 12:19 PM
  #150
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This is ludicrous. Seguin on the Leafs, minus Kessel, wouldn't be half the player he is now, as an insulated 2nd line centre on the best team in the league.

More about Dougie Hamilton, oy. The kid looks good, but he's no top pairing stud D as some would like to suggest.

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