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Burke's Team - Not what he promised

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Old
02-06-2012, 11:20 AM
  #151
Espher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
You are on a much higher horse than I my friend. Those who cannot admit their mistakes (or in this case not even your mistakes but those of another person (which makes it even worse) are the pretentious people on a high horse. The point is that a good GM who is rebuilding a bottom feeding team (bottom 10 team) would rarely trade back to back 1st round picks, regardless of who they may potentially be.
How does saying that someone is exercising hindsight in reviewing the results of a trade after a couple of years suddenly amount to being unwilling to admit my own mistakes or unwilling to admit those made by others?

Maybe I should add "Jump to Conclusion" mats to my portfolio as well.

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02-06-2012, 11:21 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post

We can argue this anyway we want. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the same thing that matters on the ice - who wins.

Go Leafs Go.
And we are winning, so why push your "Burke is horrible and the Kessel trade was a disaster" (obvious exaggeration)? We are winning, we are in a play-off spot, goalies are hot and we have 2 players in the top 10 in scoring.

The amount negativity around this place is insane.

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02-06-2012, 11:22 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Yet Boston being a FAR superior team has nothing to do with his stats in anyway?

I hate sounding like a broken record and all, but can we see what Kessel's production will be like with a TRUE bonafied No #1 Centre before making these rash conclusions on who's the better player?

All I know is that scoring a minimum of 30 goals by being paired up with a mix of 2nd and 3rd liners for the majority of his tenure here is no easy feat.
It's not as straightforward as that....

Seguin gets far less ice-time per game and PP time/game.

Kessel: 19:41 TOI/G and 3:29 PP TOI/G. He's 1st among forwards for both of these stats on Toronto.

Seguin gets 16:24 TOI/G and 2:35 PP TOI/G. He's 4th for forwards for PP TOI/G and 6th for TOI/G. Not to mention since he's second PP unit, he's not exactly playing with Boston's best players.

Then you factor in age. So how many points do you think Seguin will be getting when he's 24 (significant development) plus the added points of him being #1 on his team for ice time/PP ice-time (for forwards at least)??

I like Kessel. The trade isn't his fault. But it looks like Seguin in a few years will be outproducing Kessel on the scoresheet, not to mention he also has the potential to develop into a Selke winner. Kessel's a great player, but given the choice between building around the two, I choose Seguin.

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02-06-2012, 11:24 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post

Seguin gets 16:24 TOI/G and 2:35 PP TOI/G. He's 4th for forwards for PP TOI/G and 6th for TOI/G. Not to mention since he's second PP unit, he's not exactly playing with Boston's best players.
He is also not playing against other teams top players. Kessel has THE top D line from every team trying to kill him and put him into the stands. They play him harder and faster than anyone else on the team. That is not something Seguin has to deal with.

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02-06-2012, 11:26 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
It's not as straightforward as that....

Seguin gets far less ice-time per game and PP time/game.

Kessel: 19:41 TOI/G and 3:29 PP TOI/G. He's 1st among forwards for both of these stats on Toronto.

Seguin gets 16:24 TOI/G and 2:35 PP TOI/G. He's 4th for forwards for PP TOI/G and 6th for TOI/G. Not to mention since he's second PP unit, he's not exactly playing with Boston's best players.

Then you factor in age. So how many points do you think Seguin will be getting when he's 24 (significant development) plus the added points of him being #1 on his team for ice time/PP ice-time (for forwards at least)??

I like Kessel. The trade isn't his fault. But it looks like Seguin in a few years will be outproducing Kessel on the scoresheet, not to mention he also has the potential to develop into a Selke winner. Kessel's a great player, but given the choice between building around the two, I choose Seguin.
It's definitely not as straight forward as that.

Kessel plays against the other teams top D pairing, all game, every game. Seguin doesn't. He may at times, but Boston is rolling the Krejci line which generally gets the most attention.

You want to nit pick stats, with the 3 more minutes and 45 more seconds of PP time, but you need to look at the big picture.

Seguin = Selke winner? Based on what?

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02-06-2012, 11:26 AM
  #156
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We should have had both Kessel and Seguin. But we get Biggs and Colborne and Liles instead.

We'll see how it all plays out.

What I find funny is that when the team is winning, scoring beautiful goals and shutting out our opponents, there are people complaining about HOW we are winning, scoring beautiful goals and shutting out our opponents.

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02-06-2012, 11:27 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Agreed.

The presence of Chara alone gives off the perception that they're not to be ****** with.

However take Chara off, and they're just an slightly above-average tough team.

Nothing that Brown or Rosey couldn't handle themselves if it came down to it.
I don't buy that, they have 7-10 guys who are all ready to step in when needed. They may not be killers, but Lucic, Thornton, McQuaid, Boychuk, Marchand, Kelly, Paille, Horton, Cambell can all handle themselves well in fights.

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02-06-2012, 11:27 AM
  #158
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Sorry, I got sucked in to another Kessel trade debate. What's wrong with me?

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02-06-2012, 11:28 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayjobdave View Post
We should have had both Kessel and Seguin.
In what alternate universe could that have happened?

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02-06-2012, 11:31 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Wendelsmustache View Post
In what alternate universe could that have happened?
7th overall (Kadri) and Kaberle was apparently the other offer Burke had for Kessel. Looking at things now, that's likely the move Burke should have made.

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02-06-2012, 11:31 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Wendelsmustache View Post
In what alternate universe could that have happened?
Someone explained it, but it was possible, but not likely.

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02-06-2012, 11:34 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
7th overall (Kadri) and Kaberle was apparently the other offer Burke had for Kessel. Looking at things now, that's likely the move Burke should have made.
Not really, given that the return from the Bruins for Kaberle in a separate deal was pretty good.

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02-06-2012, 11:34 AM
  #163
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The premise of this thread is almost satirical. Thanks for the laugh.

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02-06-2012, 11:36 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
How come Burke get's to use the 20/20 hindsight excuse on the Kessel trade.

But JFJ trading Rask for Raycroft and 1st for Toskala (both who were having amazing rookie years) is all about JFJ being a terrible GM. And not hindsight.
Burke doesn't? Both he and Chiarelli have said they expected the Leafs to finish higher. They both failed in their assessment of the Leafs' roster, and Boston ended up being the beneficiary. There is no argument here. I don't know why you're insinuating I've said otherwise by quoting me.

The Toskala and Rask trades were not terrible gambles (at the time they were made -- I'm not using hindsight) by any stretch, but the problem there is that they were wholly unnecessary.

At the time of the Rask deal, we had two goaltending prospects who projected to be top tier goaltenders in the future. Instead of playing the youth (which is a common theme around here), or going for one of several 'stable' free agent goaltenders that were available and running one of the two prospects as a backup, making this into a development/rebuild season, he made a decision to trade a (relatively -- we are still talking about a goaltending prospect) high value asset to take a shot at a goaltender who had a good rookie campaign and an abysmal second season (and not a very good one overseas in the lockout). It was an unnecessary deal and it was a bigger gamble on the asset coming in having a 'bounce back season', which is always a big risk (and yes, I know Burke has made these same gambles in a couple of deals, but the talent going out has been roster players that don't fit and, as with Aulie/Gardiner/Franson, young talent comes back).

The value lost in the Toskala trade was not a big deal, and that trade shouldn't get slammed as much as it does. The problem there was a) pressure from management to win now, and b) how unreliable Toskala was in goal. The pieces of the deal were not bad, and he wasn't terrible the first season here (though frustrating to watch). Any potential pissing and moaning about what those picks "could have been" is, in fact, hindsight.

The big difference is that in Burke's "landmark failure trade", he got a known quality asset back for complete unknowns, when no comparable alternatives were available on the market. In the Rask trade, JFJ traded a known asset (admittedly still a prospect) for a goalie with one of three good seasons while plenty of other "okay" goaltending options were still available. JFJ had a lot of pressure coming from outside that probably forced him to make stupid bets, but some of them had better alternatives that he should have pursued -- the Toskala trade was one that I think he gets an unfair share of blame for.

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02-06-2012, 11:38 AM
  #165
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Fire Burke. He didn't deliver the players on HIS team that you deserve.


Post of the thread.

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02-06-2012, 11:38 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Not really, given that the return from the Bruins for Kaberle in a separate deal was pretty good.
It's debatable either way

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02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
He is also not playing against other teams top players. Kessel has THE top D line from every team trying to kill him and put him into the stands. They play him harder and faster than anyone else on the team. That is not something Seguin has to deal with.
Stajan and Moore got more ice-time while in Toronto than their current teams. Went up against the other teams Top D line, and still got more points than when they were in a reduced role but against "lesser" D. Their best years were when on the top line, you get far more offensive opportunities that way.

All I'm saying is that yea it's complicated. People just point to players on the team and say Kessel is better because he doesn't have a true #1 centre. But then they don't factor in ice-time, which plays a huge role. And it's not like Seguin is out there with Lucic and Horton every shift. He's not on the top PP unit or the top line, so he's with Boston's secondary players when on the PP. He plays RW sometimes, and while doing that gets to play with Bergeron. But then you could just argue that he's being forced to play a position that he's not used to, but still putting up good points.

At the end of the day, yea, when you factor in Seguin's further development and his future of playing on the top line/top PP all the time, getting to play with the best players and getting that extra ice-time, his points will go up. And they're already really good.

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02-06-2012, 11:40 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
It's debatable either way
Bah, you edited it as I was going to reply, but I agreed with your original premise (in hindsight).

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02-06-2012, 11:41 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Sorry, don't recall. All I have ever said is that I know why the Toskala and Rask trades were made and that is because Ferguson didn't inherit a number one goalie and he was told to try for the playoffs.

So stop with the BS and carry on getting schooled in every argument, as usual.
It's nice to have a selective memory , that way you can forget that you're opinion is wrong 90% of the time .

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02-06-2012, 11:42 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Bah, you edited it as I was going to reply, but I agreed with your original premise (in hindsight).
Not worth getting in to, it's been done to death.

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02-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #171
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29 other teams in the league that you guys can go cheer for.

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02-06-2012, 11:48 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Burke doesn't? Both he and Chiarelli have said they expected the Leafs to finish higher. They both failed in their assessment of the Leafs' roster, and Boston ended up being the beneficiary. There is no argument here. I don't know why you're insinuating I've said otherwise by quoting me.

The Toskala and Rask trades were not terrible gambles (at the time they were made -- I'm not using hindsight) by any stretch, but the problem there is that they were wholly unnecessary.

At the time of the Rask deal, we had two goaltending prospects who projected to be top tier goaltenders in the future. Instead of playing the youth (which is a common theme around here), or going for one of several 'stable' free agent goaltenders that were available and running one of the two prospects as a backup, making this into a development/rebuild season, he made a decision to trade a (relatively -- we are still talking about a goaltending prospect) high value asset to take a shot at a goaltender who had a good rookie campaign and an abysmal second season (and not a very good one overseas in the lockout). It was an unnecessary deal and it was a bigger gamble on the asset coming in having a 'bounce back season', which is always a big risk (and yes, I know Burke has made these same gambles in a couple of deals, but the talent going out has been roster players that don't fit and, as with Aulie/Gardiner/Franson, young talent comes back).

The value lost in the Toskala trade was not a big deal, and that trade shouldn't get slammed as much as it does. The problem there was a) pressure from management to win now, and b) how unreliable Toskala was in goal. The pieces of the deal were not bad, and he wasn't terrible the first season here (though frustrating to watch). Any potential pissing and moaning about what those picks "could have been" is, in fact, hindsight.

The big difference is that in Burke's "landmark failure trade", he got a known quality asset back for complete unknowns, when no comparable alternatives were available on the market. In the Rask trade, JFJ traded a known asset (admittedly still a prospect) for a goalie with one of three good seasons while plenty of other "okay" goaltending options were still available. JFJ had a lot of pressure coming from outside that probably forced him to make stupid bets, but some of them had better alternatives that he should have pursued -- the Toskala trade was one that I think he gets an unfair share of blame for.
That is fair assessment of JFJ situation - I'm not sure that everyone agrees with it.

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02-06-2012, 11:48 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Yet Boston being a FAR superior team has nothing to do with his stats in anyway?

I hate sounding like a broken record and all, but can we see what Kessel's production will be like with a TRUE bonafied No #1 Centre before making these rash conclusions on who's the better player?

All I know is that scoring a minimum of 30 goals by being paired up with a mix of 2nd and 3rd liners for the majority of his tenure here is no easy feat.
PK played on a legit first line with the B's in his 3rd year and Segs is outpacing him this year playing with lesser skilled players in his 2nd year . He's also a better all around player .

PK's a very skilled player but having a quality num 1 c won't improve his flaws .

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02-06-2012, 11:50 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
How come Burke get's to use the 20/20 hindsight excuse on the Kessel trade.

But JFJ trading Rask for Raycroft and 1st for Toskala (both who were having amazing rookie years) is all about JFJ being a terrible GM. And not hindsight.

Both were unlucky and poor at assessing goalies.
Both failed to take the team to playoffs in 3 years.

That said, Burke's current leaf roster/prospect pool looks to be better then JFJ.
That is positive for the future but we had 3 years of terrible hockey. And if JFJ got an average NHL goalie his team he would have made playoffs just like Burke is with Reimer/Monster this year.

We can argue this anyway we want. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the same thing that matters on the ice - who wins.

Go Leafs Go.
Well said .

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02-06-2012, 11:52 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
PK played on a legit first line with the B's in his 3rd year and Segs is outpacing him this year playing with lesser skilled players in his 2nd year . He's also a better all around player .

PK's a very skilled player but having a quality num 1 c won't improve his flaws .
His flaw of being not physical. He also used to not skate back, but that is not even close to true this year.

Kessel also played on a team that wasn't nearly as good. yes many of the same players, but they were not a great team, yet.

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