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02-21-2012, 05:11 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
They were off to a great start with Simmonds and Schenn.

And are you now happy that two guys named King and Nolan are taking up 1/3 of the top 6 spots?
It's better than watching Lewis center the 1st line in the playoffs last season.

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02-21-2012, 05:17 PM
  #302
Johnny Utah
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Here are facts everyone.

In 3 years Brown and Richards will be 30 and Williams will be 33. Kopitar will be 27. Gagne will be long gone.

So...that's the Kings top forwards right there. And because of the Mike Richards trade, Schenn, who will only be 23 and Simmonds 26 are on another team. They will both still be young.

The Kings have no one in the minors that can come in and produce offensively and Toffoli, who is only 19 will be our only savior and that's a lot to put on one kid. I don't see the Kings drafting and developing any forward from here on in 2-3 years considering we draft in the middle to bottom of the draft order by barely qualifying or missing the playoffs and most players go back to juniors for 2 years.

Schenn and Simmonds were the future....

Kings could have had Kopitar, Simmonds, Schenn, Toffoli, Loktionov and Clifford as there forward core for years....

Please tell me how the future is bright?

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02-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
In 3 years Brown, Richards will be 30 and Williams will be 33. Kopitar will be 27. Gagne will be long gone.

So...that's the Kings top forwards right there. And because of the Mike Richards trade, Schenn, who will only be 23 and Simmonds 26 are on another team.

The Kings have no one in the minors that can come in and produce offensively and Toffoli, who is only 19 will be our only savior and that's a lot to put on one kid. I don't see the Kings drafting and developing any forward from here on in 2-3 years considering we draft in the middle to bottom of the draft order by barely qualifying or missing the playoffs and most players go back to juniors for 2 years.

Schenn and Simmonds were the future....

Kings could have had Kopitar, Simmonds, Schenn, Toffoli, Loktionov and Clifford as there forward core for years....

Please tell me how the future is bright?
If I'm making a playoff run, I'd prefer a 30-year-old over a 23-year-old.

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02-21-2012, 05:22 PM
  #304
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That proper word is "if" just like Telos always says..."if" Richards rebounds...

Well, what "if" Penner starts scoring, what "if" Gagne gets healthy. IF IF IF IF doesn't mean jack squat. It's about what have you done lately. These guys have about a 10 year pro career and paid tons of money and Kings paid a steep price to get Penner and Richards and without them last year we made the playoffs and today we are OUT.

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02-21-2012, 05:24 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
That proper word is "if" just like Telos always says..."if" Richards rebounds...

Well, what "if" Penner starts scoring, what "if" Gagne gets healthy. IF IF IF IF doesn't mean jack squat. It's about what have you done lately.
Get real. You just posted an entire hypothetical post about how the Kings *might* look in three years.

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02-21-2012, 05:25 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Get real. You just posted an entire hypothetical post about how the Kings *might* look in three years.
How is that hypothetical? Brown, Kopitar, Richards are all under contract in 2-3 years....?

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02-21-2012, 05:39 PM
  #307
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I don't get this Simmonds/Schenn vs Richards debate. Comparing points of players on a team that employs a much more aggressive offensive system to a team that relies heavily on a defensive one proves what exactly?

That being said, Richards has looked rather bleh after his concussion, but it seems his game started to come around again after King and Nolan came up.

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02-21-2012, 05:41 PM
  #308
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Excuses, excuses. Linemates, concussion, etc, etc. Richards is supposed to be a star player, none of that should matter.

Does anyone mention that Schenn had 3 injuries this year including a concussion and he is doing just fine now.

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02-21-2012, 05:43 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Racer View Post
I don't get this Simmonds/Schenn vs Richards debate. Comparing points of players on a team that employs a much more aggressive offensive system to a team that relies heavily on a defensive one proves what exactly?

That being said, Richards has looked rather bleh after his concussion, but it seems his game started to come around again after King and Nolan came up.
At it's core, this is really a debate about how competent Dean Lombardi is. Did the Penner trade improve the team? Did the Richards trade improve the team? Did the Gagne, Moreau, Hunter signings improve the team? Do you trust Lombardi enough to believe his next move will improve the team?

Fortunately, more and more people are saying "no".

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02-21-2012, 05:43 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Excuses, excuses. Linemates, concussion, etc, etc. Richards is supposed to be a star player, none of that should matter.

Does anyone mention that Schenn had 3 injuries this year including a concussion and he is doing just fine now.
I still would like to know why you keep comparing points when the Flyers and Kings employ two polar opposite systems..

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02-21-2012, 05:51 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
At it's core, this is really a debate about how competent Dean Lombardi is. Did the Penner trade improve the team? Did the Richards trade improve the team? Did the Gagne, Moreau, Hunter signings improve the team? Do you trust Lombardi enough to believe his next move will improve the team?

Fortunately, more and more people are saying "no".
No.. at least not this year for sure. But who is to say what type of impact Richards will or won't have in the next few years. This year is hard to judge, as it's not just him that's having a bad year. Everyone except Quick is really crapping the bed as far as I'm concerened.

Do I trust Lombardi to be the one to build this team into a SC contender? No. I never did. I felt as many do in that he is great at building a solid foundation, but lacks the ability to take it further than that. It annoys me when he cites his days in SJ. Just as with LA, I think he did a great job at laying the foundation, but Doug Wilson is the one who was able to take it to the next level. Least that's what I think.

Besides all of that, my only issue with this thread is comparing Simmonds/Schenn and Richards based on points. Two teams utilizing two polar opposite systems.

I mean, if Simmonds and Schenn were still Kings, who knows what types of numbers they would have right now.

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02-21-2012, 05:57 PM
  #312
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I guess I missed the thread that outlined how we have been sanctioned by the NHL into not being allowed to improve our team at all over the next 3 years. I also missed the trade thread where DL has dealt away all of our picks over the next 3 seasons.

As to our "not having any offencive prospects" I spend from early Oct through mid March doing nothing but watch prospects play. From B.C. through upper U.S. (including Was Ore Id Co ND and Mch to name a few)as well as the rest of CAN and while that doesn't make me an expert it does mean that I at least have a working knowledge of how our prospects look in comparison to their peers.

Doesn't make me right, just makes me a little better informed then the average Kings fan who isn't as lucky as I am in having the ability to spend so much time watching minor league hockey.

That said I absolutely disagree with your assessment of our prospects. We currently have at least (hard to say at this point) 3 other players who all have the ability to step in and be productive 20/20 guys (second line players) in the NHL when they are ready. We have a couple more kids who are long shots too.

While I do spend too much time around the 67's and as such too much time around Toffoli I can tell you that ewe have more players who have just as good of a shot at becoming excellent NHL players as did Simmonds and as does Toffoli and time will likely prove me right.

Is Toffoli our only "star" power forward? He is for the next two to three years but he is far from our only productive offencive weapon.

Remember that he will enter the NHL when Brown is still under 30. So will a few of our other talented kids.

I love what Simmonds was capable of bringing to the team and he is missed but that is only until we are able to bring up one of our several other 3rd line kids to fill his spot.

I think that in the end that Nolan may just be as good as Simmonds or close to it and that Andy A might as well. Kozun still needs a little time but he plays the exact same type of game but has significantly better hands. My point is that we are not sunk nor are we destined to remain the *exact* same team that we are tdoay.

Also that if an 19 yo Brayden Schenn and WS were our only hope of success and if moving them for one of the best two way players in the game has prevented us from achieving that success then we were never any good anyways.

And I know that just ins't the case and is a bunch of bullsquat.

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02-21-2012, 06:08 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Excuses, excuses. Linemates, concussion, etc, etc. Richards is supposed to be a star player, none of that should matter.

Does anyone mention that Schenn had 3 injuries this year including a concussion and he is doing just fine now.
Also, I didn't use Richard's concussion as an excuse for anything. All I said was that after it, he's been rather bleh, but has looked a lot better since playing with Nolan and King...

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02-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Racer View Post
I still would like to know why you keep comparing points when the Flyers and Kings employ two polar opposite systems..
There is an option that everyone ignores him, problem solved. I don't think I have ever met a person who ignores facts as much as him. He just doesn't care.

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02-21-2012, 06:27 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
At it's core, this is really a debate about how competent Dean Lombardi is. Did the Penner trade improve the team? Did the Richards trade improve the team? Did the Gagne, Moreau, Hunter signings improve the team? Do you trust Lombardi enough to believe his next move will improve the team?

Fortunately, more and more people are saying "no".
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. These are facts. I am not ignoring anything. The Flyers play this way and the Kings play this way...who cares? The bottom line is that the Penner and Richards deals were supposed to push the Kings over the top and they didn't. We were eliminated during the 1st round last year, Penner finished the series on the 4th line, now he is a healthy scratch and Richards is on about a 20+game scoring drought and the Kings are in 9th place OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS.

Those are facts, some of you are choosing to ignore those facts too. So you can complain about this system and that, but the results are not there in either of these trades. They were made to IMPROVE the Kings and they haven't and the cost was a huge loss of prospects.

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02-21-2012, 06:28 PM
  #316
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And it is all supposed to be because we don't have an unproven rookie and Simmonds who had put up something like 16 goals for us?

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02-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #317
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I respect Tonellisghost's post and I really do hope that Nolan becomes the next Wayne Simmonds.

But, in reality, Wayne was a 2nd round pick who came here in the off season, slept on Lombardi's couch and did everything he could to make the team at 19 and did and scored 9 goals.

But the reality is Nolan is already 22 and Andreoff is 21 and only one has tasted the NHL and the other is still in juniors.

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02-21-2012, 06:33 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
And it is all supposed to be because we don't have an unproven rookie and Simmonds who had put up something like 16 goals for us?
No, but it would be more comforting knowing that if this season exploded and we missed the playoffs that we had a stud power forward at the age of 23 and a potential second line center who is 20 rather than a 27 year old with another season where his numbers have dropped and next year will be 28 with a core group of forwards that will be another year older.

Schenn was the bridge gap after Brown, Williams got old, were traded or retired, he was the future star of the LA Kings behind Kopitar...same with Simmonds. Forwards that paid there dues and would be here for years. Not guys that firebombed somewhere else and moved one year after signing life long deals.

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02-21-2012, 06:41 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. These are facts. I am not ignoring anything. The Flyers play this way and the Kings play this way...who cares? The bottom line is that the Penner and Richards deals were supposed to push the Kings over the top and they didn't. We were eliminated during the 1st round last year, Penner finished the series on the 4th line, now he is a healthy scratch and Richards is on about a 20+game scoring drought and the Kings are in 9th place OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS.

Those are facts, some of you are choosing to ignore those facts too. So you can complain about this system and that, but the results are not there in either of these trades. They were made to IMPROVE the Kings and they haven't and the cost was a huge loss of prospects.
I agree that the results vs expectations haven't been there. I don't think anyone disputes that.

I don't agree with using points as a comparison in this case because it's just plain stupid.

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02-21-2012, 06:42 PM
  #320
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There is an option that everyone ignores him, problem solved. I don't think I have ever met a person who ignores facts as much as him. He just doesn't care.
Yup, I can see why.

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02-21-2012, 06:48 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Excuses, excuses. Linemates, concussion, etc, etc. Richards is supposed to be a star player, none of that should matter.

Does anyone mention that Schenn had 3 injuries this year including a concussion and he is doing just fine now.
And still playing on Philly, an offensive team. So sick of this argument. Can we f'ing close this thread already? there's no reason to keep hashing out how much the kings got "screwed" cause Richards is not putting up numbers like Simmer and Schenn.

And just to clarify, Richards IS a star player and it does matter with the linemates. He's not an elite player, who can take on the game on their own. Big difference.

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02-21-2012, 06:51 PM
  #322
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And still playing on Philly, an offensive team. So sick of this argument. Can we f'ing close this thread already? there's no reason to keep hashing out how much the kings got "screwed" cause Richards is not putting up numbers like Simmer and Schenn.

And just to clarify, Richards IS a star player and it does matter with the linemates. He's not an elite player, who can take on the game on their own. Big difference.
You can ignore the thread. Next to the thread title on the index, there's an x. If you don't want to read it, click it.

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02-21-2012, 06:53 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
The Flyers play this way and the Kings play this way...who cares?
Hilarious. You really don't understand why you can't compare player points from both teams, do you? You really really don't understand that?

You don't understand that there are only 2 Philly forwards with worse +/- than Simmonds and Schenn? You really don't understand that Richards and Kopitar share number 4 spot in same category among Kings forwards? Plus / minus is crappy stat, but since you understand only numerical explanations, I don't see what else could help you. You obviously don't understand a simple statement: do not compare player points between Kings and Philadelphia players, because they play different systems.

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02-21-2012, 06:57 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I respect Tonellisghost's post and I really do hope that Nolan becomes the next Wayne Simmonds.

But, in reality, Wayne was a 2nd round pick who came here in the off season, slept on Lombardi's couch and did everything he could to make the team at 19 and did and scored 9 goals.

But the reality is Nolan is already 22 and Andreoff is 21 and only one has tasted the NHL and the other is still in juniors.
That is perfectly said.

I agree with you about the age and time that it has taken these (and other) of our prospects to develop and when I compare them to Simmonds I am only comparing where I see them ultimately fleshing out as players for us where I see Simmonds having the ability to become a 25/25 guy in the long run.

None of our kids as of today are going to enter the league at the same age or in the same way that Simmonds did but I still believe that we have a couple of true gems yet to be seen by allot of King fans.

I should have explained the Simmonds comparison thing better, sorry about that.

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02-21-2012, 07:01 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
No, but it would be more comforting knowing that if this season exploded and we missed the playoffs that we had a stud power forward at the age of 23 and a potential second line center who is 20 rather than a 27 year old with another season where his numbers have dropped and next year will be 28 with a core group of forwards that will be another year older.

Schenn was the bridge gap after Brown, Williams got old, were traded or retired, he was the future star of the LA Kings behind Kopitar...same with Simmonds. Forwards that paid there dues and would be here for years. Not guys that firebombed somewhere else and moved one year after signing life long deals.
We agree perfectly on this with the exception that I see us having a couple of options that might pan our soon enough to help us bridge the gap left in moving BS and WS.

I didn't like the Penner deal too much and have said from day one that the Gagne signing was a mistake but I still feel that MR was a good deal and hope to be proven correct in time.

I think that we could be closer then it looks but completely understand the opposition to my way of seeing things too. I may not agree with it entirely but I respect the passion and the thought behind what you guys are saying.

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