It's not viable. Wang being a tenant with his income limited by 14,500 seats, and of those, maybe 13,000-14,000 seats CAN BE USED, with no parking or concession or other revenue save for whatever share of Ratner/Prokhorov's take.....he'll make less than he is now.
It's a no go. It's just not sustainable, especially given the cap floor will keep going up and he'll run out of loopholes.
As time goes on, his leverage goes up. Mangano knows the Isles contribute millions upon millions each year in spending in the region and allow for the Coliseum to remain solvent if not OPEN. Lose the Isles and you lose all local hotel revenue, all taxes on the tickets to all events, all regional spending from gas to food and whatnot in the area. Lose the jobs in the region. You lose the taxes on those and ultimately property taxes go up so you lose not just the unemployed but the homeowners who can no longer take it.
The effects would be cataclysmic to the region and would ultimately spread.
ABLI is looking to gain. Well, it's ridiculous to think they could barring a complete recovery on LI's economic front.
Wang just has to strike a deal down the middle to get the building's lease extended in favorable terms for his sake, more importantly the County's sake and most importantly the taxpayers' sakes.
So.....a refurb? An improvement like Tampa? Or a partnership wherein Wang would likely have to give up revenue to get an overhaul? (losing parking and some revenue to offset construction paid by another party).
It's just common sense. Brooklyn is not a sustainable option unless Ratner buys the team (Prokorov is divesting himself of the Nets eventually due to Russian election IMHO).
Otherwise the Isles are just going to have to go year to year on a lease and wait for Queens or move out of state to be profitable.
Disagree? Tell me why Brooklyn makes enough money for Wang.
I don't see Wang having any interest in the NY Islanders without complete control of that HUB (which he is not getting) The referendum was just a way to get others to pay for an arena while adding value to the franchise (for an eventual sale) by solving their building issue.
The way I see this playing out is that Wangs tenure is coming to an end.
Do you know this? I hope whoever decides doesn't make their decision on whether or not the "politicians" deserve it, but wherever is best for the franchise to flourish with consideration for the fans. Could be Brooklyn but may still be far from decided.
As I have stated brooklyn would be very difficult for the bulk of the current season ticket fan base to travel to regularly(travel cost,time on LIRR with transfers needed on most branches, atlantic ave capacity(currently LIRR trains depart every 25 mins or so that time of night with max seating of 1,055 per train on the two tracks which accomodate 10 cars, (most trains there have 8 cars), lack of parking etc), although they could replace with new fans from the area and it is a better fan alternative than out of state.
How does being a renter in Brooklyn benefit Wang. Might he possibly sell?[/QUOTE]
I think he does sell. It all lines up to well. Wang has no real thirst to be an owner, he was in it for the real estate. IMHO he just has to make sure every avenue for him to develop the HUB has been exhausted.(Thats why he will honor the lease until 2015 not because he is some honorable man) Now that that point is in sight the only potential buyer without an Arena issue is Brooklyn. (Other than making their building work) Even if they have to pay Wang more than the team is worth they get to turn the lights on 41 more times a year, that has to be very attractive.
$180-190M for the Isles.
$100 average price for a seat (totally unrealistic)
41 nights filled to the brim at 14,500 (which can't happen with the Barclay's seating issue)
$59,450,000 with not one employee and no taxes paid.
Isles cap floor hit of $42M if cap never goes up.
player expenses and team costs, whittled down to a loss or small gain each year, but let's pretend they make $10M a year profit by selling out at $100 per ticket average.
$10M after taxes is $6.1M
$180,000,000/6.1=29.5 years to break even, but with inflation let's say they can do it in under 20. That's still scary.
Wang, meanwhile, gets all event revenue and parking and owns the team until he sells. He's still at a loss right now but revenue is due to climb if Snow doesn't trade our best prospects and decides to hire a coach.
It just doesn't make sense. Brooklyn will not sell out every game of be able to sell out AND charge $100 per ticket to every game, can they? So we're looking at major losses for Ratner&Co. Why throw away $180-190M for such a treat? To fill the arena?
Fill it and lose money hand over fist or open it 10 or so of those nights and make money doing so?
Just my opinion, but I think there will be a number of twists and turns before this gets finalized. So I will try not to get too excited or depressed about it. They do that to me on the ice enough... At least there looks to be optimism there.
Last edited by 19 in a row: 02-06-2012 at 02:20 PM.
$180-190M for the Isles.
$100 average price for a seat (totally unrealistic)
41 nights filled to the brim at 14,500 (which can't happen with the Barclay's seating issue)
$59,450,000 with not one employee and no taxes paid.
Isles cap floor hit of $42M if cap never goes up.
player expenses and team costs, whittled down to a loss or small gain each year, but let's pretend they make $10M a year profit by selling out at $100 per ticket average.
$10M after taxes is $6.1M
$180,000,000/6.1=29.5 years to break even, but with inflation let's say they can do it in under 20. That's still scary.
Wang, meanwhile, gets all event revenue and parking and owns the team until he sells. He's still at a loss right now but revenue is due to climb if Snow doesn't trade our best prospects and decides to hire a coach.
It just doesn't make sense. Brooklyn will not sell out every game of be able to sell out AND charge $100 per ticket to every game, can they? So we're looking at major losses for Ratner&Co. Why throw away $180-190M for such a treat? To fill the arena?
Fill it and lose money hand over fist or open it 10 or so of those nights and make money doing so?
Well we both know that teams make money on more than just ticket sales. I hope we are not going down the numbers manipulation road again. I can take those same numbers you produced and apply them to the Nets and ask why build an arena at all? Just off of the top of my head
TV contract
Concessions (Because nobody is making money off a $9 12oz budwieser)
Parking
Ad Revenue
Luxury Boxes
In house resturants and clubs
Nobody knows this buiding yey with the exception of the Architect and Engineers the 14.5K seating may be adressable or it may not.
But back to my original point as far as Wang goes....
I think i remember a quote from a few years ago (sorry no thread, so if anyone else heard this let me know). as a rule of thumb, in order to make money in the NHL, the smaller fanbase teams really need to get to the second round of the playoffs.
I just hate to think that when we become a playoff team we are limited to 14.5K, was really hoping for a bigger, not smaller arena. I guess if they move to brooklyn the solution is higher ticket prices.
It's not viable. Wang being a tenant with his income limited by 14,500 seats, and of those, maybe 13,000-14,000 seats CAN BE USED, with no parking or concession or other revenue save for whatever share of Ratner/Prokhorov's take.....he'll make less than he is now.
It's a no go. It's just not sustainable, especially given the cap floor will keep going up and he'll run out of loopholes.
As time goes on, his leverage goes up. Mangano knows the Isles contribute millions upon millions each year in spending in the region and allow for the Coliseum to remain solvent if not OPEN. Lose the Isles and you lose all local hotel revenue, all taxes on the tickets to all events, all regional spending from gas to food and whatnot in the area. Lose the jobs in the region. You lose the taxes on those and ultimately property taxes go up so you lose not just the unemployed but the homeowners who can no longer take it.
The effects would be cataclysmic to the region and would ultimately spread.
ABLI is looking to gain. Well, it's ridiculous to think they could barring a complete recovery on LI's economic front.
Wang just has to strike a deal down the middle to get the building's lease extended in favorable terms for his sake, more importantly the County's sake and most importantly the taxpayers' sakes.
So.....a refurb? An improvement like Tampa? Or a partnership wherein Wang would likely have to give up revenue to get an overhaul? (losing parking and some revenue to offset construction paid by another party).
It's just common sense. Brooklyn is not a sustainable option unless Ratner buys the team (Prokorov is divesting himself of the Nets eventually due to Russian election IMHO).
Otherwise the Isles are just going to have to go year to year on a lease and wait for Queens or move out of state to be profitable.
Disagree? Tell me why Brooklyn makes enough money for Wang.
Brooklyn is nothing but a supposed barging chip, much like Kanas City was. However, after seeing how little holding Kansas City over the heads of Nassau officials did you would think they would not try to do the same with Brooklyn. Much like KC, folks will see through Brooklyn for many of the reasons your posts mentions and then some.
I fore one firmly believe the Islanders do not leave Nassau. Just not fiscal and for a country looking for economic upswing, allowing a place to lose that much revenue would be catastrophic. ESPECIALLY, and I can not put any more emphasis on the margin for LI to lose that revenue to CANADA.
It's not viable. Wang being a tenant with his income limited by 14,500 seats, and of those, maybe 13,000-14,000 seats CAN BE USED, with no parking or concession or other revenue save for whatever share of Ratner/Prokhorov's take.....he'll make less than he is now.
It's a no go. It's just not sustainable, especially given the cap floor will keep going up and he'll run out of loopholes.
As time goes on, his leverage goes up. Mangano knows the Isles contribute millions upon millions each year in spending in the region and allow for the Coliseum to remain solvent if not OPEN. Lose the Isles and you lose all local hotel revenue, all taxes on the tickets to all events, all regional spending from gas to food and whatnot in the area. Lose the jobs in the region. You lose the taxes on those and ultimately property taxes go up so you lose not just the unemployed but the homeowners who can no longer take it.
The effects would be cataclysmic to the region and would ultimately spread.
ABLI is looking to gain. Well, it's ridiculous to think they could barring a complete recovery on LI's economic front.
Wang just has to strike a deal down the middle to get the building's lease extended in favorable terms for his sake, more importantly the County's sake and most importantly the taxpayers' sakes.
So.....a refurb? An improvement like Tampa? Or a partnership wherein Wang would likely have to give up revenue to get an overhaul? (losing parking and some revenue to offset construction paid by another party).
It's just common sense. Brooklyn is not a sustainable option unless Ratner buys the team (Prokorov is divesting himself of the Nets eventually due to Russian election IMHO).
Otherwise the Isles are just going to have to go year to year on a lease and wait for Queens or move out of state to be profitable.
Disagree? Tell me why Brooklyn makes enough money for Wang.
Wang needs to call ABLI bluff. I believe he wanted to originally buy the Nets. Now he can. Let him by a portion of the Nets and the Areana from Ratner and the Russian dude as it is rumored he wants out.
Let ABLI tear down the NVMC at their cost remove the absebtos- Let them build an indoor parking garage at their cost. This will cost them $250 million before they build anything there.
Wang needs to call ABLI bluff. I believe he wanted to originally buy the Nets. Now he can. Let him by a portion of the Nets and the Areana from Ratner and the Russian dude as it is rumored he wants out.
Let ABLI tear down the NVMC at their cost remove the absebtos- Let them build an indoor parking garage at their cost. This will cost them $250 million before they build anything there.
Whoa whoa whoa....ABLI is not building anything. ABLI is a professional association kind of like the chamber of commerce for developer/builders.. They represent the interests (politically) of the areas largest developers. ABLI does not develop and or build. Polimeni,Burman,Blumenfeld and Hamer are individual developers (who happen to belong to ALBI) who are working together to present a plan. Whats concerning is not only do these guys have the political/economic clout to develop the HUB but that they are normally competitors who would be bidding against each other. This is an unusual route being taken here and one that tells me these guys are serious. These guys are heavy hitters and if you think they are doing this for any other reason other than getting the job you are very mistaken.
Brooklyn is nothing but a supposed barging chip, much like Kanas City was. However, after seeing how little holding Kansas City over the heads of Nassau officials did you would think they would not try to do the same with Brooklyn. Much like KC, folks will see through Brooklyn for many of the reasons your posts mentions and then some.
I fore one firmly believe the Islanders do not leave Nassau. Just not fiscal and for a country looking for economic upswing, allowing a place to lose that much revenue would be catastrophic. ESPECIALLY, and I can not put any more emphasis on the margin for LI to lose that revenue to CANADA.
Well, Nassau does NOT control its finances, NIFA does. They weren't happy with Mangano planning the August 1 referendum. Wang can cave in and pay for a new arena in Nassau, but that would be dumb as he's guaranteed to lose money.
Well, Nassau does NOT control its finances, NIFA does. They weren't happy with Mangano planning the August 1 referendum. Wang can cave in and pay for a new arena in Nassau, but that would be dumb as he's guaranteed to lose money.
For info. NIFA oversees and audits the finances but does not control the finances. The Legislature still runs the finances freely and now only has a commission to run it by state agencies to determine whether Nassau can borrow and only as a last resort with non compliance can they ultimately disapprove or approve financing. If the County is operating within scope (1%) they can operate.
Mangano, and thus WANG screwed up because they didn't propose cuts to allow for spending, and taxpayers saw through it, but even if they didn't, I wonder if NIFA would even allow it. Spending would go up, taxes up and with vacancy rates, that spells heavy borrowing, don't it?
As for the guarantee to lose money, that's why you renovate and not raze and build new, especially with competing venues in Brooklyn and possibly Queens (the soccer stadium or convention center) so close. As a lessor, the renovation to a great extent is a write off, correct, accountants?
For info. NIFA oversees and audits the finances but does not control the finances. The Legislature still runs the finances freely and now only has a commission to run it by state agencies to determine whether Nassau can borrow and only as a last resort with non compliance can they ultimately disapprove or approve financing. If the County is operating within scope (1%) they can operate.
Mangano, and thus WANG screwed up because they didn't propose cuts to allow for spending, and taxpayers saw through it, but even if they didn't, I wonder if NIFA would even allow it. Spending would go up, taxes up and with vacancy rates, that spells heavy borrowing, don't it?
As for the guarantee to lose money, that's why you renovate and not raze and build new, especially with competing venues in Brooklyn and possibly Queens (the soccer stadium or convention center) so close. As a lessor, the renovation to a great extent is a write off, correct, accountants?
And how long will it be after 2015 before the Coliseum need to be renovated again? That's putting a lip stick on a pig over and over.
And how long will it be after 2015 before the Coliseum need to be renovated again? That's putting a lip stick on a pig over and over.
Umm....no.
I guess we should tear houses down when the carpet and paint fade. You have zero grasp of construction and design/architecture. The NVMC is only looking like it does because Nassau County is the most inept government outside Marion Barry's cocaine riddles mess.
The FACIA is outdated. The concourse needs to be expanded. The entire building could use a modernization, but you don't have to if something sensible can be done to make the place nice. If you don't understand this, PLEASE demolish your home if you need another bedroom or want to add a patio deck. Or if the flooring, GOD FORBID, needs to be updated like the 1970's wall decor.
Or prove me wrong and say the bowl, foundation, supports and framing are not code.
Last edited by OlTimeHockey: 02-07-2012 at 04:25 AM.
And how long will it be after 2015 before the Coliseum need to be renovated again? That's putting a lip stick on a pig over and over.
The things that are "wrong" with the Coliseum are relatively minor things. Make the concourse wider, fix what's broken, a new coat of paint and you're good to go. The notion that the Coliseum is some toxic dump that needs to be demolished and prevents the team from being successful is absolutely insane.
The things that are "wrong" with the Coliseum are relatively minor things. Make the concourse wider, fix what's broken, a new coat of paint and you're good to go. The notion that the Coliseum is some toxic dump that needs to be demolished and prevents the team from being successful is absolutely insane.
What they need is to put TV's on the walls in front of the urinals because you never know what you'll miss when nature calls. I'm still so mad that I was doing my business when JT scored his first NHL goal. I don't think I'll ever live that one down.
The things that are "wrong" with the Coliseum are relatively minor things. Make the concourse wider, fix what's broken, a new coat of paint and you're good to go. The notion that the Coliseum is some toxic dump that needs to be demolished and prevents the team from being successful is absolutely insane.
It's the product of brainwashing. Cult rationale, in fact. Most had huge opinions on the LHP and now have absolutist views, and then it went from LHP or KC to LHP or Queenzzzzzssthhh to Referendum or Queensszzzzztthhhhhh or Brooklyn to where we are today.
So many see Nassau as worse and worse and worse each new soap opera.
2015, BTW....each step is getting closer to a rational in between ground. Huge LHP turns to a scaled down one the taxpayers can handle (no new school construction in a bad economy, which would be THIS economy now paying for it) which turns to arena only, which saw ABLI propose an arena overhaul with some development and the entire plot beautified which turns to Wang's referendum (rejected) which now has ABLI proposing a bigger project.
If you imagined a tug of war and were staring at the red ribbon in the middle, when is it centered?
I say ABLI pays for the arena development and Wang controls the lease with favorable terms for a MODEST development like they first proposed but....the County taxpayers remain owners of the facility. Lease terms favor all parties greatly because the tax base NEEDS DESPERATELY the infusion of capital into the economy.
30 year deal for Wang at current terms, rent to be paid from developers directly to the taxpayers, not Wang, and not one dollar of public money is to be used in return for favorable terms to all parties.
Jobs created, and the site is beautified immensely with no housing issue.
That's a compromise where no one loses rather than one where one or two sides of the three win.
It's the product of brainwashing. Cult rationale, in fact. Most had huge opinions on the LHP and now have absolutist views, and then it went from LHP or KC to LHP or Queenzzzzzssthhh to Referendum or Queensszzzzztthhhhhh or Brooklyn to where we are today.
So many see Nassau as worse and worse and worse each new soap opera.
2015, BTW....each step is getting closer to a rational in between ground. Huge LHP turns to a scaled down one the taxpayers can handle (no new school construction in a bad economy, which would be THIS economy now paying for it) which turns to arena only, which saw ABLI propose an arena overhaul with some development and the entire plot beautified which turns to Wang's referendum (rejected) which now has ABLI proposing a bigger project.
If you imagined a tug of war and were staring at the red ribbon in the middle, when is it centered?
I say ABLI pays for the arena development and Wang controls the lease with favorable terms for a MODEST development like they first proposed but....the County taxpayers remain owners of the facility. Lease terms favor all parties greatly because the tax base NEEDS DESPERATELY the infusion of capital into the economy.
30 year deal for Wang at current terms, rent to be paid from developers directly to the taxpayers, not Wang, and not one dollar of public money is to be used in return for favorable terms to all parties.
Jobs created, and the site is beautified immensely with no housing issue.
That's a compromise where no one loses rather than one where one or two sides of the three win.
That keeps Wang as the owner.
Islander fans lose
I would rather see the team move to Guam than have Wang as the owner for the next thirty years.
Whats the point of preserving this "hallowed" ground if all you are going to do is throw **** all over it?
I would rather see the team move to Guam than have Wang as the owner for the next thirty years.
Whats the point of preserving this "hallowed" ground if all you are going to do is throw **** all over it?
The hope is any deal makes the franchise value go up.
And then there is hope he'll sell.
If we go to Brooklyn and revenue is cut, the value goes down in time.
If we end up in Queens, there's hope it goes up, but revenue is determined by a third party.
If a compromise is gotten in Nassau, the lease terms being favorable allow for the value to go up. The hope is the man who "wishes he never bought the Isles" would bow out and leave.
2&3 mean Wang might sell soon. 1 would, IMHO, mean he'll hold on, cut spending and eventually sell with us ending up God only knows where.
Of course he could stay in all three, but all three have one good thing in common:
The things that are "wrong" with the Coliseum are relatively minor things. Make the concourse wider, fix what's broken, a new coat of paint and you're good to go. The notion that the Coliseum is some toxic dump that needs to be demolished and prevents the team from being successful is absolutely insane.
There is only one reason any sports team needs a new building and it has nothing to do with bathrooms or concourses or seats.
Its revenue.
Luxury boxes, restaurants, bars, club seating, shopping, mass transit, these are the things that generate the revenue that, (hopefully) is spent on the ice or field. Its today's sports business. A better bathroom experience or wider concourse are just by products of a building that will generate revenue.
Its not brain washing its understanding that in order for the NY Islanders to make progress, to stop being the joke of the NHL, they need to put forth a more marketable product that on and off the ice.
