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Which enforcers have the highest trade value?

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Old
10-24-2004, 11:58 PM
  #26
NYRangers
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Well an enforcer is someone who will go around and protect the team. There someone who other people know they will have to deal with if they start getting chippy with the goalie or something. An enforcer is someone who isnt afraid to fight ANYONE.

Thats Matthew Baranaby.

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Old
10-25-2004, 04:11 PM
  #27
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Simon is a very average player. I loved him on the hawks and wish he still was here in Chicago, but he doesn't have the skill to be a top 6 player. Same with Barnaby. Good to have Barnaby but he's an average fighter. There are very few legit heavies in the league. An angry Laraque is scary good. Aren't any Proberts, Grimsons or Lacroixs around anymore. Laraque is the only one I can think of that could handle Probert. Maybe Worrell, who's a very average fighter, but a huge dude with tons of muscle.

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Old
10-25-2004, 05:39 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
Simon is a very average player. I loved him on the hawks and wish he still was here in Chicago, but he doesn't have the skill to be a top 6 player. .
Chris Simon scored 17 goals last year, and was a +15. mostly on the NYR. He played a top 6 role for the Flames during the stretch run, and the Vancouver series until he got hurt

having said that I understand he's not a long term option as a top 6 forward, and his game does have significant limitations. but (especially in a 30 team NHL) he can play for prolonged stretches in a top 6 situation and help a team. I suspect he and Gelinas might have 'split' a top 6 spot for the Flames this year, if there were going to be a season

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Old
10-25-2004, 05:53 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers
Well an enforcer is someone who will go around and protect the team. There someone who other people know they will have to deal with if they start getting chippy with the goalie or something. An enforcer is someone who isnt afraid to fight ANYONE.

Thats Matthew Baranaby.

My hero, Kelly Buchberger wasn't afraid to fight anyone either. He used to take some terrible beatings in the process. I don't think that his fearlessness made him an "enforcer", though. I think an "enforcer" isn't just someone that teams know they will have to answer to. I think they have to FEAR answering to him. My opinion only

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Old
10-25-2004, 08:04 PM
  #30
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Chris Neil has solid scoring touch for a tough guy, has improved his fighting, and isn't a liability. I think he's got pretty good value.

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10-25-2004, 09:08 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
I'd say Chris Simon with Brashear a close second. .
i 100% agree and i myself was gonna put simon 1st and grashear 2nd

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Old
10-25-2004, 11:18 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
No, I said Laraque IS a pure goon. Chris Simon is not.
Laraque's hardly a goon. There's a difference between a goon and an enforcer. Goons usually tend to take lots of penalties, many of which are stupid.

We'd all like to see him fight more. Unfortunately, it's hard to fight with no partner.

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Old
10-25-2004, 11:32 PM
  #33
Bileur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
Laraque's hardly a goon. There's a difference between a goon and an enforcer. Goons usually tend to take lots of penalties, many of which are stupid.

We'd all like to see him fight more. Unfortunately, it's hard to fight with no partner.
That is not the only reason.

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Old
10-26-2004, 10:06 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
Laraque's hardly a goon. There's a difference between a goon and an enforcer. Goons usually tend to take lots of penalties, many of which are stupid.

We'd all like to see him fight more. Unfortunately, it's hard to fight with no partner.
I saw Laraque skate away from Oliwa at least three times last year alone. I'm not arguing whether Laraque is the toughest in the league or not because he probably is but you can't honestly say that anybody (enforcer) is scared of him. That is just ridiculous. Every other enforcer relishes the challenge of fighting Laraque so they can prove themselves, Georges just doesn't give them the chance most of the time.

Laraque doesn't fight that much because he thinks he can contribute offensively, which is not the case.

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Old
10-26-2004, 10:17 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
Laraque doesn't fight that much because he thinks he can contribute offensively, which is not the case.
Not every enforcer will toss 'em every chance he gets. I'm not even sure Shelley does that. For quite a while, Brashear wouldn't fight Laraque at all.

It's not like an enforcer has to spend his entire career in the box. Laraque gets ample opportunity to do other things than fight, because other enforcers very rarely give him the chance. Kevin Sawyer was the only player I saw that took on Laraque pretty much every time.

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Old
10-26-2004, 10:47 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
Not every enforcer will toss 'em every chance he gets. I'm not even sure Shelley does that. For quite a while, Brashear wouldn't fight Laraque at all.

It's not like an enforcer has to spend his entire career in the box. Laraque gets ample opportunity to do other things than fight, because other enforcers very rarely give him the chance. Kevin Sawyer was the only player I saw that took on Laraque pretty much every time.
What "ample opportunity" does he get to do anything? He plays about 9 minutes a night, and is never used in any critical situations. Laraque is a goon who doesn't like to fight, can't play defense, and can't score.

It is clear that other enforcers view Laraque as a intimidating fighter, but he doens't seem to have much of an influence on top nine forwards (at least acccording to the THN survey). So, as an enforcer and a player, his utility is questionable.

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Old
10-26-2004, 01:17 PM
  #37
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An enforcer's job isn't to fight at any chance he gets, sometimes your opponent will be looking for a fight to fire up his teammates and it's not always a good idea to give him that opportunity.

IMO top enforcers are Simon, Domi, Laracque, Brashear, Dingman and Neil.
All are reliable skaters and hold their own against anybody.

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Old
10-26-2004, 01:21 PM
  #38
Seachd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
What "ample opportunity" does he get to do anything?
All the time he's playing when no one's fighting him? That's quite often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
He plays about 9 minutes a night, and is never used in any critical situations.
How many fourth liners are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Laraque is a goon who doesn't like to fight
False, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
It is clear that other enforcers view Laraque as a intimidating fighter, but he doens't seem to have much of an influence on top nine forwards (at least acccording to the THN survey). So, as an enforcer and a player, his utility is questionable.
I know you're not a big Laraque fan, which is fair enough. But he's got just as much ability as an average fourth liner, in addition to being probably the top heavyweight. Nothing more, nothing less. He just happens to be smart enough not to get his team into trouble by pummeling on someone who doesn't want to fight.

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Old
10-26-2004, 04:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ismellofhockey
An enforcer's job isn't to fight at any chance he gets, sometimes your opponent will be looking for a fight to fire up his teammates and it's not always a good idea to give him that opportunity.
an enforcer better not wait just until he needs to fire up his team or he'd most likely be out of a job. an enforcer draws crowds. if they want to get icetime/keep their job they will do it well and often.

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Old
10-26-2004, 05:00 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaVal575
an enforcer better not wait just until he needs to fire up his team or he'd most likely be out of a job. an enforcer draws crowds. if they want to get icetime/keep their job they will do it well and often.
You completely missed my point.

Obviously an enforcer is judged on his fights but there are times when backing down is a better idea than fighting and the coaches recognize that and reward the fighter who's more than just a goon.

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Old
10-26-2004, 05:04 PM
  #41
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As much as everyone hates him, Matt Johnson might have some potential. He still has a few years in him, he throws down a lot, is intimidating but he is a very loose cannon...*sighs*

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Old
10-26-2004, 05:34 PM
  #42
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So your argument is that Laraque is a better enforcer because he's soft?

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Old
10-26-2004, 07:34 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGuy
Chris Neil has solid scoring touch for a tough guy, has improved his fighting, and isn't a liability. I think he's got pretty good value.
Chris Neil is valueless. He can't play hockey, he can't fight worth a damn, he isn't a team player (his whining when they dressed Spezza in the conference finals over him). Actually I don't think Chris Neil can do anything other than take cheap shot at junior players and break their arms.

Kilrea would have beaten the crap out of him if he had his way.

Only in my fair city would Chris Neil be considered anything but a fringe forth liner pest. If he is your enforcer you have 29 other teams taking liberties at your players because its not like he will beat anyone up.

I said at the trade deadline if the Sens add Simon they win the cup. And low and behold he gets traded to a fringe playoff team and almost wins the cup.

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Old
10-26-2004, 09:32 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Chris Neil is valueless. He can't play hockey, he can't fight worth a damn, he isn't a team player (his whining when they dressed Spezza in the conference finals over him). Actually I don't think Chris Neil can do anything other than take cheap shot at junior players and break their arms.
Only a Leaf fan could have an opinion this far from reality.

How many enforcers in the league had 8 goals last year?

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Old
10-26-2004, 10:01 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
he can't fight worth a damn.
He KOed/TKOed Shelley and Oliwa this year thats not bad.

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Old
10-26-2004, 10:05 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Only a Leaf fan could have an opinion this far from reality.

How many enforcers in the league had 8 goals last year?
How many enforcers ahd nearly 9 minutes of icetime per game and 1/2 minute on the PP?

Oliwa for the Flames was played quite a bit for an enforcer and he still ONLY played 4.92 per game with 0.06 minutes on the PP. Neil had more points basically because he played nearly 2X more time than a regular enforcer and had some special teams icetime as well. If I doubled Oliwas icetime he would have 6 goals and in 17 fewer games. SO I am unsure what your point is?

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Old
10-26-2004, 10:10 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
How many enforcers ahd nearly 9 minutes of icetime per game and 1/2 minute on the PP?

Oliwa for the Flames was played quite a bit for an enforcer and he still ONLY played 4.92 per game with 0.06 minutes on the PP. Neil had more points basically because he played nearly 2X more time than a regular enforcer and had some special teams icetime as well. If I doubled Oliwas icetime he would have 6 goals and in 17 fewer games. SO I am unsure what your point is?
Yeah but Oliwa would have Van Allen centering him.
So really
extra ice time for Neil=No Van Allen for Oliwa



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Old
10-26-2004, 10:19 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
All the time he's playing when no one's fighting him? That's quite often.



How many fourth liners are?



False, obviously.



I know you're not a big Laraque fan, which is fair enough. But he's got just as much ability as an average fourth liner, in addition to being probably the top heavyweight. Nothing more, nothing less. He just happens to be smart enough not to get his team into trouble by pummeling on someone who doesn't want to fight.
You and I don't agree on this player. But, as always, I find your arguments to be reasonable and informed.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:31 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
He KOed/TKOed Shelley and Oliwa this year thats not bad.
TKO'd Shelley yes, I felt he got edged by Oliwa. Definetly did not TKO him.

Personally, I dislike Chris Neil. But, he is a decent fighter, he had a very good year fighting wise last year, and was very active. He can be a spot picker. For a fighter, he has solid skills. He is one of the better player/enforcers. The previous descriptions of Chris Neil were completely off base IMO.

Laraque, along with Brashear and Cairns, is one of the best fighters in the league. He also hates his role and would prefer to not fight. It has nothing to do with people fearing him. In fact, Laraque's been pretty nondeadly with his fists lately, he hasn't caused all that much damage. Hell, latlely, he's made Huggy Bear look like Sugar Ray or Twist. The reason he does not fight often is simply a choice on his own part. Sure, there are people out there who want nothing to do with him, but I don't think it's a higher majority of people than those who want nothing to do with Matt Johnson, and he managed 23 fights last year (and beat Laraque). If Laraque wanted to throw down in volume, he could. It would also make him more affective, but he wouldn't be the first person to shy away from the fists once he feels he can offer more as an everyday player.

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Old
10-27-2004, 08:35 PM
  #50
Ismellofhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
How many enforcers ahd nearly 9 minutes of icetime per game and 1/2 minute on the PP?

Oliwa for the Flames was played quite a bit for an enforcer and he still ONLY played 4.92 per game with 0.06 minutes on the PP. Neil had more points basically because he played nearly 2X more time than a regular enforcer and had some special teams icetime as well. If I doubled Oliwas icetime he would have 6 goals and in 17 fewer games. SO I am unsure what your point is?
So your argument that Neil can't play hockey stands on the fact that Jacques Martin (one of the better coaches in the league I remind you) gives him more icetime than the average enforcer?

Neil played more because he was less of liability, hence he got his goals because his play is better than average.

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