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Old
02-06-2012, 02:12 PM
  #51
bp13
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Originally Posted by heelsox View Post
I guess I should clarify, cup run for excuses this year. Like when Krejci struggles, and we hear about "23 in 25!!!!!!!!!!" or when Horton goes missing and everyone says "How can you talk about Horton, he was so clutch!!"...talking about the actual stanley cup run is different....Tough call, I mean yeah in Hindsight...but in Hindsight, with someone else we also may get eliminated in the first round, or third round, or lose in the cup finals, or maybe we win as well...but the joy is, we don't have to play the what if game.
........
I don't think on the one hand you can say "in hindsight yeah we could have gotten someone better" and then wonder if we'd have then done worse.

If we're judging trades, you have to do it in somewhat of a vacuum. It's like the Red Sox acquiring Gagne...the guy was a trainwreck who only lost them games. But they happened to win the Series that year...would anyone say they're happy with that trade just because they won the Series??? You wouldn't want those assets back because we happened to win?

If you can't point to Kaberle helping them win the Cup, then you can't say the trade was won just because they did win the Cup. It's just not any reasonable, professional way to assess a talent swap.

And agree to disagree on our transition game. It was my hope as well that he'd help, but the improvement seemed slight to me. And the biggest reason we acquired him, for the power play, the results showed he made it worse. Now I doubt he did, but the stats are the stats.

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02-06-2012, 02:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
So you expected Kaberle to be a bottom pairing player? Let's go over why he was brought in:

1. To fix the powper play. Did he do that? No, the PP got even worse with him here.
2. As a legitimate number 2 dman. Did he occupy that role? No. He ended up on the bottom pairing with CJ basically trying to hide him for most of the playoff run.
3. To fix the transition game. Did he? Not really. The team was still hemmed into their end during long parts of games, and I didn't see much impact on breaking into the offensive zone. They still relied on dump and chase, as a matter of fact. If you want to give him partial credit, feel free.
4. Add some offensive production from the back end. Okay, this is the one area where he contributed, IMO, but like BP13 said do you recall any significant scoring plays he was responsible for off the top of your head?

So to me, the Kaberle deal is and will always be a bad trade, IMO. They simply overpaid, cup results not withstanding.
1. Ray Bourque wasn't fixing that PP, they were lacking a forward to work from the half boards, I said it then and I'll say it now. Seguin is doing that now and the PP is better. Although, I will say that I did think that the PP had better movement with Kaberle back there.

2. If you were expecting a #2 d-man, then I don't really know what to tell you.

3. The Bruins weren't going to change their system for one guy. They've always done the same thing with Julien. He did make some nice stretch passes and skated the puck a bit, but that's not Julien hockey.

4. Stretch pass to Ryder in Game 4 against the Habs.

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02-06-2012, 02:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
See, why is this so hard for some to admit though? The deal was a loss, but it's okay because the ends justify the means. Pretty straight forward to me.

The irony is that the same people who are claiming it was a win would have likely be the first to lament the deal had the team not won the cup.
I'm not sure how that's ironic. It worked out, if it didn't it would be bad...

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02-06-2012, 02:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
1. Ray Bourque wasn't fixing that PP, they were lacking a forward to work from the half boards, I said it then and I'll say it now. Seguin is doing that now and the PP is better. Although, I will say that I did think that the PP had better movement with Kaberle back there.

2. If you were expecting a #2 d-man, then I don't really know what to tell you.

3. The Bruins weren't going to change their system for one guy. They've always done the same thing with Julien. He did make some nice stretch passes and skated the puck a bit, but that's not Julien hockey.

4. Stretch pass to Ryder in Game 4 against the Habs.
1. Fully agree about the PP. It came from them stubbornly trying to do the same thing over and over.

2. The price they paid to get him dictated what was expected, not me. FWIW, I was against the move from the jump. I always felt that Kaberle was poor defensively and overrated.

3. That's on PC for expecting him to fit, but that still means he didn't do what was needed.

4. I recall him coughing the puck up to a guy in the slot during that series more than his assist on Ryder's goal.

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02-06-2012, 02:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
So to me, the Kaberle deal is and will always be a bad trade, IMO. They simply overpaid, cup results not withstanding.
does overpaid always = bad though? trades during the deadline almost always favor the team with the asset. but in order to get a coveted player, you have to overpay. simple supply and demand.

but no, he wasn't all that was advertised. he still wasn't a terrible player though.

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02-06-2012, 02:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
I'm not sure how that's ironic. It worked out, if it didn't it would be bad...


I have no words for this.


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02-06-2012, 02:26 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by dtam83 View Post
does overpaid always = bad though? trades during the deadline almost always favor the team with the asset. but in order to get a coveted player, you have to overpay. simple supply and demand.

but no, he wasn't all that was advertised. he still wasn't a terrible player though.
That's a fair point. In this case though, a bad trade to me is when you give up assets for someone, and the player you bring in doesn't do what he was actually brought in to do. Could he have been worse? Sure. Did he do what he was brought in for? Nope. To me, that means it was a bad deal.

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02-06-2012, 02:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
That's a fair point. In this case though, a bad trade to me is when you give up assets for someone, and the player you bring in doesn't do what he was actually brought in to do. Could he have been worse? Sure. Did he do what he was brought in for? Nope. To me, that means it was a bad deal.
I still think the market dictates what's a good deal or bad deal. I wasn't really following other teams, but did any other team give up a similar package for a better player or give up less of a package for the same caliber player?

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02-06-2012, 02:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Ah yes, the ol' cup win argument when you aren't able to actually articulate a relevant point about something.

Case in point: Someone posts that they overpaid for Kaberle and that he didn't play to the level that was expected based on the cost to obtain. Clearly that means they won a cup, so you're obviously wrong. Question a coaches move here? Well, they won a cup last year, so what do you know? Question a move by the FO? They won a cup, so they clearly know more than you. Question a player? Well they have their name on the cup, so you must be wrong.

Easily the worst argument of all time. Lacking in reason, and relevance, IMO.
I agree with this, but would like to point out that it cuts both ways. I can't count the number of mind-numbing arguments against things the coaching staff and front office did <2011, simply because...."well, they didn't win the cup so it must have been a bad move." The "no-cup, therefore I am right and the Bruins are wrong " argument made far too many appearances when people were discussing various moves the Bruins made prior to June 2011. I suppose now some of the other side of this nonsense is showing.

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02-06-2012, 02:34 PM
  #60
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The Bruins will be able to absorb 11+ million dollars of cap space at the deadline. Personally I think we need upgrades on the third line, defense (over Corvo) and 7th defenseman. I will be shocked it we don't use that cap advantage over our rivals.

My only untouchables are Dougie, Koko and Knight, prospects wise.

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Old
02-06-2012, 02:36 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by dtam83 View Post
I still think the market dictates what's a good deal or bad deal. I wasn't really following other teams, but did any other team give up a similar package for a better player or give up less of a package for the same caliber player?
Montreal got Wisniewski for a 5th round pick last year. Granted they made the move a little earlier than the deadline, but it was clearly a more productive pickup. The guy averaged .70 ppg to Kaberle's .38 ppg during his time with Boston, and he played better defense.

Also, I think market can dictate price, but the results of the individual are what make a deal good or bad, IMO.

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02-06-2012, 02:37 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ThomasJ13 View Post
I agree with this, but would like to point out that it cuts both ways. I can't count the number of mind-numbing arguments against things the coaching staff and front office did <2011, simply because...."well, they didn't win the cup so it must have been a bad move." The "no-cup, therefore I am right and the Bruins are wrong " argument made far too many appearances when people were discussing various moves the Bruins made prior to June 2011. I suppose now some of the other side of this nonsense is showing.
Absolutely. It was just as laughable an argument that way, IMO.

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Old
02-06-2012, 02:37 PM
  #63
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For every time Kaberle has a "defensive gaffe" I can remember some defensive plays that was fantastic. I wish I could remember which game (and which series) it was but I distinctly remember him blocking a shot that would have been a sure goal because it was just him between the net and the puck with Thomas down and out.

Seriously, go back and watch our Cup run, you'll be surprised how effective Kaberle actually was.

The problem is that Chia brought him in almost specifically to help the PP which he did not do and yeah, that sucks. But because he didn't help that, he became the goat. A HUGE goat and every little mistake he made was multiplied by a billion. Much like how Corvo is treated now.

Truth is, Kaberle was solid in our Cup run. He had a couple gaffes but to be honest, no more than Lucic had (Milan was a turnover machine with his broken toe/broken nose). Was he the greatest? No, of course not and it was clear that he didn't fit in with the Bruins system long term but the insinuation out of some people that he basically piggy backed his way to a Cup on this Bruins team is wrong in my opinion. He had a huge hand in bringing the Cup to Boston just like everyone else on that team.

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02-06-2012, 02:38 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Montreal got Wisniewski for a 5th round pick last year. Granted they made the move a little earlier than the deadline, but it was clearly a more productive pickup. The guy averaged .70 ppg to Kaberle's .38 ppg during his time with Boston, and he played better defense.
Brewer was had for a 2nd as well.

Chia got taken to the cleaners on that Kaberle deal, especially since Kaberle basically intimated he was either staying in Toronto or going to Boston.

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02-06-2012, 02:40 PM
  #65
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Brewer was had for a 2nd as well.

Chia got taken to the cleaners on that Kaberle deal, especially since Kaberle basically intimated he was either staying in Toronto or going to Boston.
Exactly. Totally forgot about Brewer too.

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02-06-2012, 02:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
For every time Kaberle has a "defensive gaffe" I can remember some defensive plays that was fantastic. I wish I could remember which game (and which series) it was but I distinctly remember him blocking a shot that would have been a sure goal because it was just him between the net and the puck with Thomas down and out.

Seriously, go back and watch our Cup run, you'll be surprised how effective Kaberle actually was.

The problem is that Chia brought him in almost specifically to help the PP which he did not do and yeah, that sucks. But because he didn't help that, he became the goat. A HUGE goat and every little mistake he made was multiplied by a billion. Much like how Corvo is treated now.

Truth is, Kaberle was solid in our Cup run. He had a couple gaffes but to be honest, no more than Lucic had (Milan was a turnover machine with his broken toe/broken nose). Was he the greatest? No, of course not and it was clear that he didn't fit in with the Bruins system long term but the insinuation out of some people that he basically piggy backed his way to a Cup on this Bruins team is wrong in my opinion. He had a huge hand in bringing the Cup to Boston just like everyone else on that team.
I agree. I think Kaberle did alot more then was given credit for, and I still still last years Kaberle was alot better then this years Corvo.

That being said, I still think Chia got robbed. In the end, I don't really care because we are the Champs...

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02-06-2012, 02:41 PM
  #67
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Agreed. The Peverley and Kelly acquisitions were probably the most beneficial acquisitions as both played a pretty significant role in the B's cup run. It's hard to say where the team would've ended up without them, but they both seemed to add a new dynamic to the roster and the versatility they provided was crucial to the team's success.
Agreed. The Peverley move brought some speed to the front end, and I will go to my grave saying that without Peverley they don't beat the Habs. At times he seemed to put the team on his back, using his speed to either backcheck or put points up (1 goal and 4 assists in the last 5 games) in a manner in which Wheeler simply would not have. I loved the move at the time because of the speed it brought, and I don't care how many points Wheeler racks up in this or any future year....that move was pure gold.

Now Kaberle is a different story...I loved that move at the time too, but I turned out to be very wrong, and ultimately he didn't bring much to the table.

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02-06-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Exactly. Totally forgot about Brewer too.
Ask any TB fan and they will tell you the only reason they won round one was Brewer's play.

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02-06-2012, 03:00 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Montreal got Wisniewski for a 5th round pick last year. Granted they made the move a little earlier than the deadline, but it was clearly a more productive pickup. The guy averaged .70 ppg to Kaberle's .38 ppg during his time with Boston, and he played better defense.

Also, I think market can dictate price, but the results of the individual are what make a deal good or bad, IMO.
Wrong. It was a 2nd plus a conditionnal 5th.

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02-06-2012, 03:09 PM
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Wrong. It was a 2nd plus a conditionnal 5th.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't we still have serious cap issues when that trade happened as well, Savard hadn't gone on LTIR yet.

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02-06-2012, 03:12 PM
  #71
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Wrong. It was a 2nd plus a conditionnal 5th.
Still a better buy than Kaberle, wouldn't you say?

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Old
02-06-2012, 03:23 PM
  #72
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The Peverley trade is a tough one.

Peverely signed for 3 years a t 3.25 mill than a UFA. Was a waiver wire pick-up for Atlanata at the time. A bit of a late bloomer. 29 years of age with 36 points.

Wheeler signed for one more year at 2.55 mill than a RFA. First round draft pick. 26 years of age with 35 points.

Stuart signed for two more years at 1.7 mill than a UFA. First round draft pick. 27 years of age with 7 points.
Pev trade was a huge win all around. He was a key component of the Cup victory and Blake Wheeler is a stiff

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02-06-2012, 03:32 PM
  #73
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Wheeler had no future here and would have been gone anyway. Stuart's a pylon who can't fight. Peverley isn't a star or anything but he can still contribute on a good team's 3rd line.

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02-06-2012, 04:10 PM
  #74
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The Peverley trade is a tough one.

Peverely signed for 3 years a t 3.25 mill than a UFA. Was a waiver wire pick-up for Atlanata at the time. A bit of a late bloomer. 29 years of age with 36 points.

Wheeler signed for one more year at 2.55 mill than a RFA. First round draft pick. 26 years of age with 35 points.

Stuart signed for two more years at 1.7 mill than a UFA. First round draft pick. 27 years of age with 7 points.
It's not a tough one at all. Peverley was the best player in the deal and he was also the cheapest (not including Valabik) and still signed for another year.

Stuart at the time was spending a lot of game up in the pressbox because he was being outplayed by McQuaid. And with a $1.7M cap hit, he had to go to make room for Kaberle.

Wheeler was stagnating in Boston, and hadn't shown any improvement since his rookie year. He's done better with Winnipeg so far but he still isn't as good a player as Peverley.

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02-06-2012, 04:16 PM
  #75
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Kaberle = Eric Gagne

I guess to me, it's down to the ramifications of what you gave up. I know we've heard PC say "you take the best player available at the draft even if you have a log jam at the position of drafted player because you can always make trades later" but we can't assume Burke & Chia had the same list as to who they thought was the best available player when Biggs was chosen. We'll see what the 2nd turns out to be like but as long as what we gave up doesn't turn it to more than one cup for others I can live with it.

Example: The Bruins got Walton & Vadnais for the 72 cup but in doing so gave up MacLeish and Leach so even though they helped us with the 72 cup, it could be argued if they kept those 2 we could've won the 74 & 75 cups as well (as some felt Walton & Vadnais, though good, weren't the be all end all to that cup run and therefore, wouldn't have missed them that much) but hindsight is 20/20.

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