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Old
02-06-2012, 04:27 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kiss The Ring View Post
Wheeler had no future here and would have been gone anyway. Stuart's a pylon who can't fight. Peverley isn't a star or anything but he can still contribute on a good team's 3rd line.
Nope. Stuart was a very good stay-at-home D-man for us. He was traded because McQuaid was doing about the same job for far less money. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that Stuart is a " pylon ".

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02-06-2012, 04:35 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
Yeah, I don't see a single loss on that trade deadline record. Now, Bochenski for Versteeg on the other hand...
All trades from last year go down as "W"s for me because the team pulled off the cup.

If I were still not giddy over the cup, the Kaberle trade alone goes down as a huge loser imho. One can argue to wait and see how the picks and players pan out. We will see...

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02-06-2012, 04:36 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
For every time Kaberle has a "defensive gaffe" I can remember some defensive plays that was fantastic. I wish I could remember which game (and which series) it was but I distinctly remember him blocking a shot that would have been a sure goal because it was just him between the net and the puck with Thomas down and out.

Seriously, go back and watch our Cup run, you'll be surprised how effective Kaberle actually was.

The problem is that Chia brought him in almost specifically to help the PP which he did not do and yeah, that sucks. But because he didn't help that, he became the goat. A HUGE goat and every little mistake he made was multiplied by a billion. Much like how Corvo is treated now.

Truth is, Kaberle was solid in our Cup run. He had a couple gaffes but to be honest, no more than Lucic had (Milan was a turnover machine with his broken toe/broken nose). Was he the greatest? No, of course not and it was clear that he didn't fit in with the Bruins system long term but the insinuation out of some people that he basically piggy backed his way to a Cup on this Bruins team is wrong in my opinion. He had a huge hand in bringing the Cup to Boston just like everyone else on that team.
I believe that kabs gamesaver was the Montreal series... one of the OT games... I think game 4.
He was most certainly a good player for us... he just didn't play our style so no one liked him. Finesse players are somewhat... outcasts on our team.

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02-06-2012, 05:29 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
The trade and the cup win are not mutually exclusive. You can look at them as two independent activities. Many other players could have had a far better impact than what TK did here. So yes, they won the cup but it wasn't because of that move. What you're doing is dismissing the bad trade because of the cup win, and that's just ridiculous. If anything, they won the cup despite having that anchor tied around their necks. He was a defensive liability every time he was on the ice.
I have to agree with you on Kaberle!

HOWEVER he was a great asset on the transition part of the game and was part of a SC winner.

So no you cannot say that he was not instrumental into their win....

Would I want him back? Surely not over Corvo and I would want Wideman back over both of them.

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02-06-2012, 05:29 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbruins1 View Post
I believe that kabs gamesaver was the Montreal series... one of the OT games... I think game 4.
He was most certainly a good player for us... he just didn't play our style so no one liked him. Finesse players are somewhat... outcasts on our team.
He might have done so in the Montreal series as well, but the one I remember was a block on an open net shot in Game 7 of the Tampa series, which the Bruins won 1-0.

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02-06-2012, 05:58 PM
  #81
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If you take every trade/signing PC made since he's been here, His record is pretty damn good. I would certainly give him an A.

When a bad deal he made years ago {Versteeg/ Bochenski}is still talked about, you know what a great job he did.

As for the Kaberle deal, the jury is still out because we dont know what we gave up. Colborne is still a "wait and see" prospect that we could afford to give up. And the pick we gave up is the same thing. What we do know is what we got out of Kaberle. We won the cup with him in the line up. It's impossible to tell if we would have won it without him and it really means nothing. Bottom line is: our GM made moves last season in hopes of helping Bruins to win Lord Stanley. He succeeded and that can never be taken away from him. AND until we actually know what kind of prospects we gave up, the Kaberle deal was a good one.
If the 2 players we gave up turn out to be decent players, well good for Burke and Toronto. He got a little back from the Kessel deal in which PC should get the maximun penalty for theft.

I read most of this thread and I understand where a couple posters debating the Kaberle deal is coming from. LSCII made some very good valid points.


Last edited by nfld77: 02-06-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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02-06-2012, 05:59 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
He might have done so in the Montreal series as well, but the one I remember was a block on an open net shot in Game 7 of the Tampa series, which the Bruins won 1-0.
It's funny how quickly people forget plays like that but the same people could probably tell you the timestamp on his defensive zone giveaway(s).

I totally admit that he wasn't the right fit in Boston in the long term and I'm not shedding any tears over his absence but he was just fine and sometimes even clutch in our Cup run and it's sad that most people forget the good and cling to the bad.

Sorry for that massive run on sentence

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02-06-2012, 06:02 PM
  #83
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from Bob McKenzie of TSN,

General manager Jim Rutherford has been talking to teams about Ruutu (who is an unrestricted free agent this summer) and the asking price has been steep - a significant draft pick and a solid prospect or a top prospect alone.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...medium=twitter

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02-06-2012, 06:15 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
from Bob McKenzie of TSN,

General manager Jim Rutherford has been talking to teams about Ruutu (who is an unrestricted free agent this summer) and the asking price has been steep - a significant draft pick and a solid prospect or a top prospect alone.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...medium=twitter
If that's what they want then I'd be cool with Sauve/Arniel/Caron and a 1st going for him but I wouldn't be okay with giving up Knight, Spooner or Koko. Especially since Ruutu is going to be a UFA and there's no guarantee that A) he resigns or B) even fits in with the Bruins system

But we have a ton of assets, lets use them. there's just no way that all these kids will ever crack the Bruins lineup.

EDIT - I'm guessing they will want Knight/Spooner/Koko and a 2nd realistically. I'd be too weary of that methinks.

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02-06-2012, 06:44 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
If that's what they want then I'd be cool with Sauve/Arniel/Caron and a 1st going for him but I wouldn't be okay with giving up Knight, Spooner or Koko. Especially since Ruutu is going to be a UFA and there's no guarantee that A) he resigns or B) even fits in with the Bruins system

But we have a ton of assets, lets use them. there's just no way that all these kids will ever crack the Bruins lineup.

EDIT - I'm guessing they will want Knight/Spooner/Koko and a 2nd realistically. I'd be too weary of that methinks.
I think Chia would be as well. The fact that a new CBA will have to be negociated will add " value " to UFA player. As i said, in another thread, i'm not sure that GM will be willing to add a player with 1 year left at his contract without knowing how the new CBA will pan out. Therefore, a guy like Ruutu might cost more because his contract is done after the season. There's no doubt that someone will overpay to acquire Ruutu. The Rangers is one of the team who might be willing to overpay, IMHO.

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02-06-2012, 07:11 PM
  #86
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And rumor has it he wants 5M+ on his next contract.

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02-06-2012, 07:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by remer View Post
I think we all get excited about the possibilities come trade deadline. Can our GM look like a genius and bring in some big talent for little in return. Reality is that many teams make some big mistakes come trade deadline. For example L.A. trading for Dustin Penner for Tuebert, 1st and 3rd rd pick. Washington trading for Arnott for Stekel and a 2nd. Even the Panthers giving up on Wideman to Washington for Hausewith and a 3rd.

Chiarelli has won some and lost as well on trade deadline.
2010
Morris for a 3rd round pick- loss
Kampfer for a 4th round pick- maybe a win
Seidenberg and Bartowski for Bitz, Weller and 2nd- huge win

2011
Kaberele for Colbourne, 1st rd pick (Tyler Biggs) and a 2nd in 2012- Huge loss
Peverley for Wheeler and Stuart- probably a loss
Kelley for a 2nd - huge win


So as this trade deadline approaches, Buyer Beware!
This is one of the days GM's make great decisions and win trades or are on the losing end and set back their franchise.

Who will makes the big moves? Which team will load up for the playoffs? Who could be a team that surprises everyone?
Jesus christ ... it's KELLY.

BTW How in the world do you think Peverley for Wheeler and Stuart is a loss??? We won a cup with Peverley being a key factor. Wheeler = lazy player that blew here. And Stuart was replaced by McQuaid's abilities.

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02-06-2012, 07:24 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
If that's what they want then I'd be cool with Sauve/Arniel/Caron and a 1st going for him but I wouldn't be okay with giving up Knight, Spooner or Koko. Especially since Ruutu is going to be a UFA and there's no guarantee that A) he resigns or B) even fits in with the Bruins system

But we have a ton of assets, lets use them. there's just no way that all these kids will ever crack the Bruins lineup.

EDIT - I'm guessing they will want Knight/Spooner/Koko and a 2nd realistically. I'd be too weary of that methinks.
Don't really agree that we have a ton of assets.

There are a ton of Bruins prospects that we may have been excited about at one point or another, but they've fallen off considerably. Not that none of them will ever make it, but every GM has a handful of prospects of their own like that and aren't in a rush to get more.

And some teams like having NHL-ready players that can step in now and at least do something. The Bruins have Caron & Kampfer, and some may say that's stretching it and most teams have guys like that in their system, too.

The Bruins have 4 really good prospects that everyone is digging on now. And most here would be upset if one were moved and somebody like Selanne wasn't coming back.

We have only 5 picks in the next draft, and are missing our 2nd (which is a great trade piece at the deadline.) So if we want to move our 1st, we won't be picking until 85-90th.

So if we're going to get anybody that people will be excited about, we're going to lose someone that others will be upset about.

Guys like Arniel & Sauve would probably only be useful if we're putting a small cherry on top of a package or if we need to balance out the contract numbers of a bigger deal. Can't see any other GM's getting excited about most of our prospects.

Edit: Also wondering if maybe Maxim Chudinov would have any trade value with the season he's having in the KHL. Probably not, as nobody knows if he really wants to come to the U.S. and if he does, whether he'd be willing to put some time in the AHL before making it.

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02-06-2012, 07:49 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remer View Post
I think we all get excited about the possibilities come trade deadline. Can our GM look like a genius and bring in some big talent for little in return. Reality is that many teams make some big mistakes come trade deadline. For example L.A. trading for Dustin Penner for Tuebert, 1st and 3rd rd pick. Washington trading for Arnott for Stekel and a 2nd. Even the Panthers giving up on Wideman to Washington for Hausewith and a 3rd.

Chiarelli has won some and lost as well on trade deadline.
2010
Morris for a 3rd round pick- loss
Kampfer for a 4th round pick- maybe a win
Seidenberg and Bartowski for Bitz, Weller and 2nd- huge win

2011
Kaberele for Colbourne, 1st rd pick (Tyler Biggs) and a 2nd in 2012- Huge loss
Peverley for Wheeler and Stuart- probably a loss
Kelley for a 2nd - huge win


So as this trade deadline approaches, Buyer Beware!
This is one of the days GM's make great decisions and win trades or are on the losing end and set back their franchise.

Who will makes the big moves? Which team will load up for the playoffs? Who could be a team that surprises everyone?
deadline deals work out if they deliver the results desired... its not only about who ultimately has the better players years later...

some teams will be happy trying to win a round or two... get some playoff revenue...
other teams need to worry about the future

then some need to win cup or its a loss pure and simple

we did win a cup.. and seidenberg was around for the cup... and morris had to get moved to make room in the cap/roster for seidenberg so all of our moves were done with a gameplan and it paid off....

all of our moves are therefore a win... it was a giant jigsaw puzzle that had to be put together... it delivered the results we wanted

i wont be happy seeing colborne/biggs on another team over the next 10-15 years but i will be happy the rest of my life that i didnt go 50-60-70 years without a cup win.

calgary once dealt brett hull for a cup win... its their only cup win in history. maybe it was worth it to lose hull? niewendyke helped dallas win a cup... iginla was a much better player after the trade but winning cups might only happen 1-2 times in a career

got to go for it if you get close... and if you end up dealing off a kid or two then you got to just swallow it down if it gets you the cup you wanted

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Old
02-06-2012, 08:29 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wetcamelfood View Post
Kaberle = Eric Gagne

I guess to me, it's down to the ramifications of what you gave up. I know we've heard PC say "you take the best player available at the draft even if you have a log jam at the position of drafted player because you can always make trades later" but we can't assume Burke & Chia had the same list as to who they thought was the best available player when Biggs was chosen. We'll see what the 2nd turns out to be like but as long as what we gave up doesn't turn it to more than one cup for others I can live with it.

Example: The Bruins got Walton & Vadnais for the 72 cup but in doing so gave up MacLeish and Leach so even though they helped us with the 72 cup, it could be argued if they kept those 2 we could've won the 74 & 75 cups as well (as some felt Walton & Vadnais, though good, weren't the be all end all to that cup run and therefore, wouldn't have missed them that much) but hindsight is 20/20.
Dont let the revisionist historians convince you that Kaberle was good. He wasnt...he was a gong show. So much so that Julien couldnt trust him with more than 10 protected minutes. Yea, he got some assists and made a few plays....but in the end played weak defensively overall, gave the puck up a lot and didnt produce the way we expected of him. In fact the PP (his specialty) got significantly worse with him here.

The only reason it isnt viewed as a complete disaster is that we won the Cup....in spite of his performance.

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02-06-2012, 09:13 PM
  #91
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If you take every trade/signing PC made since he's been here, His record is pretty damn good. I would certainly give him an A.

When a bad deal he made years ago {Versteeg/ Bochenski}is still talked about, you know what a great job he did.

As for the Kaberle deal, the jury is still out because we dont know what we gave up. Colborne is still a "wait and see" prospect that we could afford to give up. And the pick we gave up is the same thing. What we do know is what we got out of Kaberle. We won the cup with him in the line up. It's impossible to tell if we would have won it without him and it really means nothing. Bottom line is: our GM made moves last season in hopes of helping Bruins to win Lord Stanley. He succeeded and that can never be taken away from him. AND until we actually know what kind of prospects we gave up, the Kaberle deal was a good one.
If the 2 players we gave up turn out to be decent players, well good for Burke and Toronto. He got a little back from the Kessel deal in which PC should get the maximun penalty for theft.

I read most of this thread and I understand where a couple posters debating the Kaberle deal is coming from. LSCII made some very good valid points.


But again, it'll be nice watching Colborne especially to see how he turns out, and I hope for the kid's sake, he has a fine career!!

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02-06-2012, 11:25 PM
  #92
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We all can make mistakes. Sorry for mis-spelling
Not sure what your point is. I'm also not sure why your highlighted players.

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02-07-2012, 04:16 AM
  #93
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Lscii

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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Ah yes, the ol' cup win argument when you aren't able to actually articulate a relevant point about something.

Case in point: Someone posts that they overpaid for Kaberle and that he didn't play to the level that was expected based on the cost to obtain. Clearly that means they won a cup, so you're obviously wrong. Question a coaches move here? Well, they won a cup last year, so what do you know? Question a move by the FO? They won a cup, so they clearly know more than you. Question a player? Well they have their name on the cup, so you must be wrong.

Easily the worst argument of all time. Lacking in reason, and relevance, IMO.

Here's a newsflash. Teams can win a cup with players who didn't perform up to expectations. Coaches can still win a cup and make a bad decision. A GM can make a bad trade and still overcome that to be successful.

And the most important thing of all is that it's okay to acknowledge these things. They won't take the cup win away if you say that a deadline deal didn't go the way it was anticipated. They won't scratch off the player's names if you admit the overcame some holes on the roster. It's okay. They already won. If anything, admitting these things is actually more of a testament to the organizational depth created by the FO, the coaching scheme, and dedication of the players to overcome these challenges.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Your arguments are dead on, was going to post on this issue many times but you are taking the words out of my head!

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02-07-2012, 04:20 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
Yeah, I don't see a single loss on that trade deadline record. Now, Bochenski for Versteeg on the other hand...
i totally agree with you Bill and Patty.

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02-08-2012, 10:38 AM
  #95
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i totally agree with you Bill and Patty.
Like I said, if we're still talking about that trade, he's doing a terrific job. Damn, we won the cup, cant do any better than that!

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02-08-2012, 10:39 AM
  #96
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Like I said, if we're still talking about that trade, he's doing a terrific job. Damn, we won the cup, cant do any better than that!
Sure they can, winning it two times

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02-08-2012, 10:46 AM
  #97
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haha, right on brother!!

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02-08-2012, 11:00 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Ah yes, the ol' cup win argument when you aren't able to actually articulate a relevant point about something.

Case in point: Someone posts that they overpaid for Kaberle and that he didn't play to the level that was expected based on the cost to obtain. Clearly that means they won a cup, so you're obviously wrong. Question a coaches move here? Well, they won a cup last year, so what do you know? Question a move by the FO? They won a cup, so they clearly know more than you. Question a player? Well they have their name on the cup, so you must be wrong.

Easily the worst argument of all time. Lacking in reason, and relevance, IMO.

Here's a newsflash. Teams can win a cup with players who didn't perform up to expectations. Coaches can still win a cup and make a bad decision. A GM can make a bad trade and still overcome that to be successful.

And the most important thing of all is that it's okay to acknowledge these things. They won't take the cup win away if you say that a deadline deal didn't go the way it was anticipated. They won't scratch off the player's names if you admit the overcame some holes on the roster. It's okay. They already won. If anything, admitting these things is actually more of a testament to the organizational depth created by the FO, the coaching scheme, and dedication of the players to overcome these challenges.
Kaberle being a good acquisition and Boston overpaying for his services are not one and the same. Kaberle didn't turn out to be the guy to resolve all the issues in Boston but you really can't blame Chia or anyone else for thinking he would help. He was a great player but simply didn't fit into the Bruins style of play. He did improve transition and I don't think Boston wins the cup without him (3 game 7's, subtract Kaberle and add in Kampfer and you won't win), but I think a better acquisition could have been made... of course that conclusion is reached with the benefit of hindsight. The guy had 11 assists (5 of which came on the PP) in that run, that's an assist every other game and was a +8. Sheltered as he was, that's still a decent performance.

As for whether or not they overpaid, could go either way. Colborne hasn't looked great at the NHL level, and can't stick on a team that is hurting for talent down the middle. They got a 30th overall 1st round pick and had to trade up to get the guy they wanted. They got a 2nd round pick in this draft only because Boston won the cup.

A decent prospect and a late first round pick isn't a bad price for an FA like Tomas Kaberle, and in fact is pretty much what the market demands. They didn't overpay for the guy, especially if they weren't really that high on Colborne (and some in the know have suggested he was lower in the depth chart then most here thought).

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02-08-2012, 11:04 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Kaberle being a good acquisition and Boston overpaying for his services are not one and the same. Kaberle didn't turn out to be the guy to resolve all the issues in Boston but you really can't blame Chia or anyone else for thinking he would help. He was a great player but simply didn't fit into the Bruins style of play. He did improve transition and I don't think Boston wins the cup without him (3 game 7's, subtract Kaberle and add in Kampfer and you won't win), but I think a better acquisition could have been made... of course that conclusion is reached with the benefit of hindsight. The guy had 11 assists (5 of which came on the PP) in that run, that's an assist every other game and was a +8. Sheltered as he was, that's still a decent performance.

As for whether or not they overpaid, could go either way. Colborne hasn't looked great at the NHL level, and can't stick on a team that is hurting for talent down the middle. They got a 30th overall 1st round pick and had to trade up to get the guy they wanted. They got a 2nd round pick in this draft only because Boston won the cup.

A decent prospect and a late first round pick isn't a bad price for an FA like Tomas Kaberle, and in fact is pretty much what the market demands. They didn't overpay for the guy, especially if they weren't really that high on Colborne (and some in the know have suggested he was lower in the depth chart then most here thought).
1- Pretty Bold statement considering that Kaberle was buried on the 3rd pairing because he was a defensive liability.

2- Who tell you that the Bruins would have choose the Kampfer option. They could have traded for another D-man to fill the void.

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02-08-2012, 11:07 AM
  #100
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Kaberle had 11 assists 11. That means he helped some on the dreadful PP and in general. If you think Kampfer is getting that you're crazy. Both would have been good for mistakes. It is very fair to say they would not have won without Kaberle. I would not have kept him, but he definitely contributed.

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