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Redo Round 1, 2002.

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Old
10-25-2004, 08:26 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Orpik's a goalie? Sorry, I guess I was way off.

no, he's not a goalie..though you are way off. behind goaltenders, defensemen take the longest to develop. I thought you'd have time to figure that out...you know...in between speculating about players you've barely seen before.

Let me guess...Orpik made a few bad plays on your copy of ESPN NHL Hockey 2k5?

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10-25-2004, 08:27 PM
  #77
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Shock. Semin being underrated.


He easily makes top 5-7 on any draft list from this year, from what he's shown so far. Period. He has that much talent.

The only knock that was on him coming into this draft was his size. Which it still is a question, has not shown to hurt him so far.

And as for the Orpik debate, he's certainly not of Adam Foote quality. Foote at least has some resemblance of a potential offensive game. And yes, Orpik is physical, and played decently on an awful team, but that doesn't make him exceptional. The other interesting comment was his no history of injury problems, while I'm not sure of the stats so far, the type of game he plays is not going to lean itself towards him being completely healthy. I hope he stays healthy, but odds are good he'll at least get banged up here or there.


And we won't even go into the Ryan Whitney situation. While he should eventually be a great player, he has shown zero at the NHL level. His game "should" translate to the NHL exceptionally, but it hasn't yet. For that reason, he should still have some questions. I hope he can kill the mistakes that he made early, and might still make. He's still a project that's 2 years from reaching the potential some of you talk about. Even then, young defenseman sometimes struggle.

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10-25-2004, 08:31 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
no, he's not a goalie..though you are way off. behind goaltenders, defensemen take the longest to develop. I thought you'd have time to figure that out...you know...in between speculating about players you've barely seen before.
If he had been in the NHL I could have seen him more often. I think that is the whole point.

Quote:
Let me guess...Orpik made a few bad plays on your copy of ESPN NHL Hockey 2k5?
Nice try, never played a video game for more than 10 seconds in my life.

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10-25-2004, 08:33 PM
  #79
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He was in the NHL all of last season, and played pretty damned well. I thought maybe you might have caught that.

Oh, no on the game?? So you really are pulling this tripe out of nowhere then, eh?

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10-25-2004, 08:44 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Not that often but this whole site is built around people making comments about players they haven't seen very often if at all, isn't it?

That appears to be your approach. The fact is, the U.S. college system is again producing an excellent crop of not only defensemen, but players in general. Yeah, there was a bit of a dry spell, but every league has them. The fact you're going off secondary information without having seen certain players isn't helping your credibility.


Last edited by Rabid Ranger: 10-25-2004 at 09:10 PM.
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Old
10-25-2004, 08:50 PM
  #81
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I don't care if the NCAA has had some trouble, and that the Penguins aren't a good team, ect. ect.

You don't call a player like Brooks Orpik a bust and then argue with others...I mean you have no argument.

The simple fact is, Defenseman are a tough breed to devolope and the Penguins did it right with him. I think Moose is simply looking at the numbers here... He didn't put up impressive numbers but on that team who did? and what defenseman could?

Guys as big as Orpik who hit as hard as Orpik don't grow on trees...Not saying he's the next Scott Stevens but just watch what that guy did for the Devils. Guys like this are hard to come by and Brooks Orpik is a damn fine YOUNG, STILL YOUNG defenseman.


How about Back to the 2002 draft huh fellas?

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Old
10-25-2004, 08:55 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
Shock. Semin being underrated.


And as for the Orpik debate, he's certainly not of Adam Foote quality. Foote at least has some resemblance of a potential offensive game. And yes, Orpik is physical, and played decently on an awful team, but that doesn't make him exceptional. The other interesting comment was his no history of injury problems, while I'm not sure of the stats so far, the type of game he plays is not going to lean itself towards him being completely healthy. I hope he stays healthy, but odds are good he'll at least get banged up here or there.

Sounds to me like a clone ofGautheir. The guy comes into the NHL hitting everything he can and hitting them hard!

Gautheir:
1st round, 20th overall
6'2" and 224 pounds

Orpik:
1st round, 18th overall
6'2" and 228 pounds (nhl.com)

They playa similar style but Gautheir has refined his hitting (less big hits) to be somwehat better defensively. Was a high promise guy for the Flames back in the day. Orpik gets more put on his shoulders and to live up to because the Penguins have very little top talent on the blueline. They both have VERY close physical dimensions and style of play. Looks to me like a fair comparison.

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Old
10-25-2004, 09:12 PM
  #83
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Gee, I didn't know that the best defensive defenseman on the worst defensive team in the league would have so many staunch fans.

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Old
10-25-2004, 09:14 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Gee, I didn't know that the best defensive defenseman on the worst defensive team in the league would have so many staunch fans.

it's not about being "fans." i told you before..im completely objective. I'm not a Penguins fan, and have no personal attachment to Orpik..but you called him a bust and that's clearly not the case.

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10-25-2004, 11:18 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera


And we won't even go into the Ryan Whitney situation. While he should eventually be a great player, he has shown zero at the NHL level. His game "should" translate to the NHL exceptionally, but it hasn't yet. For that reason, he should still have some questions. I hope he can kill the mistakes that he made early, and might still make. He's still a project that's 2 years from reaching the potential some of you talk about. Even then, young defenseman sometimes struggle.
Wow.

You make it sound as if he's a 26 year old that has bounced around the league. This is basically his first real pro season, he played well for Wilkes-Barre in the playoffs last season, and he would probably be in the NHL if there was a season. He might show something at the NHL level, when he actually plays at the NHL level.

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Old
10-25-2004, 11:46 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
And we won't even go into the Ryan Whitney situation. While he should eventually be a great player, he has shown zero at the NHL level. His game "should" translate to the NHL exceptionally, but it hasn't yet. For that reason, he should still have some questions. I hope he can kill the mistakes that he made early, and might still make. He's still a project that's 2 years from reaching the potential some of you talk about. Even then, young defenseman sometimes struggle.
Well, considering that he was a junior in college, playing college hockey last year, I wouldn't expect him to have shown anything at the NHL level. That's like saying Vanek is crap because he hasn't shown anything at the NHL level........Just because you choose to develop in college instead of the CHL, does not mean something is wrong with your game.

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Old
10-25-2004, 11:49 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
While he should eventually be a great player, he has shown zero at the NHL level. His game "should" translate to the NHL exceptionally, but it hasn't yet. For that reason, he should still have some questions.
Ovechkin what?

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Old
10-26-2004, 12:33 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Sounds to me like a clone ofGautheir. The guy comes into the NHL hitting everything he can and hitting them hard!

Gautheir:
1st round, 20th overall
6'2" and 224 pounds

Orpik:
1st round, 18th overall
6'2" and 228 pounds (nhl.com)

They playa similar style but Gautheir has refined his hitting (less big hits) to be somwehat better defensively. Was a high promise guy for the Flames back in the day. Orpik gets more put on his shoulders and to live up to because the Penguins have very little top talent on the blueline. They both have VERY close physical dimensions and style of play. Looks to me like a fair comparison.
Gauthier is like Kasparaitis. Orpik is more like Jason Smith.

Quote:
Foote at least has some resemblance of a potential offensive game.
I'll call you out on this. One of Orpik's best qualities is his mobility. I'd say he's definitely one of the more fluid blueliners in the NHL. One of the things the Penguins have worked with him on is moving the puck out of danger with his speed and puck control. With that, IMO, will come offensive numbers. He makes a decent pass, all he lacks is an accurate point shot offensive awareness.

Quote:
The other interesting comment was his no history of injury problems, while I'm not sure of the stats so far, the type of game he plays is not going to lean itself towards him being completely healthy. I hope he stays healthy, but odds are good he'll at least get banged up here or there.
That's not the point. Of course he's going to have some injuries. Everyone gets injured, whether you're a hard-hitting blueliner or not. The point is that so far, his development has not been slowed by injury and he should be all the better for it in the long run. As apposed to say Bryan Allen, who really can't afford to miss much more time.


Last edited by Jacob: 10-26-2004 at 12:41 AM.
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Old
10-26-2004, 12:36 AM
  #89
Chimaera
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Ovechkin what?

And I have similar questions.... as should everyone. I'm not putting him up as the next "one", but the relation I'm saying is this. Players like Pitkanen, Lupul and Semin have shown more at the NHL level. While that does not make them the better player long term, they are more of the "sure thing". All three of those players have potential to be top liners, or even all stars in the NHL. And have already shown they could adapt to the game. While that's not a knock on Whitney in general, a semi-proven quality with a similar peak ability level is worth more than an unknown. In other words, if you are going to rank players, you can't do it with bias. A NHL GM is going to want the player with a high ceiling, but also is going to take into account the numbers they have shown so far. There's not much of a difference between the top say, 7-8 people from that draft, and they should hopefully all work out. But when all potential is relatively equal, production is the next determining factor.




I see however, that I have struck a nerve. A lot of Pens fans never change.

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Old
10-26-2004, 12:42 AM
  #90
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This is just a hunch, but I don't think that flyers guy is a Penguins fan.

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10-26-2004, 12:47 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
This is just a hunch, but I don't think that flyers guy is a Penguins fan.
Of course, there's no telling what depths Penguins fans will stoop to in our undying efforts to pimp our prospects. It doesn't matter that Whitney hasn't played at the NHL level yet, he still should've put up points there. If he's really as good as we say he is he'd be able to score goals for Pittsburgh all the way from college.


Last edited by Zen Arcade: 10-26-2004 at 01:12 AM.
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Old
10-26-2004, 01:07 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
I see however, that I have struck a nerve. A lot of Pens fans never change.
I'm not a Penguins fan, but when you discount Ryan Whitney simply because he hasn't played in the NHL, yet praise Ovechkin at every turn, your double standard is quite apparent.

Of course it's a gamble when you're talking about proven/unproven commodities, but just how much more proven is a guy like Semin who's only played 50 games on an NHL club with an AHL caliber roster for much of the year? It's not like Semin set the league on fire or anything, so I don't see how taking Whitney over Semin is so absurd if that's their own personal preference.

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Old
10-26-2004, 02:02 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Whatever that's supposed to mean. 24 is 24 no matter where he played.
why is 24 bad ? why is finishing his schooling bad? why is an organization being patient bad? how many points should he have by now then for where he was drafted to not make him a bust


Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Does it make him a successful first round pick? Or, could a team find a guy that takes that long to develop in the lower rounds
this is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard. to call a guy that makes the nhl a failed draft pick is just plain ignorant in the overall scheme of things.

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Old
10-26-2004, 02:03 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Orpik's a goalie? Sorry, I guess I was way off.
but.. they are FIRST ROUND PICKS, which is what you're talking about and when they become busts... giguere sure busted, or is he a special case

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10-26-2004, 02:27 AM
  #95
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Can we get some redo's going rather than arguing about Brooks Orpik?

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10-26-2004, 12:56 PM
  #96
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You Pens fans always talk about Whitney's great SHORT stint with the baby pens last year, and base that because he played so well he is going to become great... well what about his great stint this year ?

Zeros across the board in the stats department for his first four games…except for the -8 in the plus/minus column.

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10-26-2004, 12:58 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwOOsh
You Pens fans always talk about Whitney's great SHORT stint with the baby pens last year, and base that because he played so well he is going to become great... well what about his great stint this year ?

Zeros across the board in the stats department for his first four games…except for the -8 in the plus/minus column.
Haven't seen him play, but he's got to be one of the most overrated prospects.

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10-26-2004, 01:14 PM
  #98
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Heh, classic.

You complain about people not sticking to the topic at hand, and then, two posts later, join in on the sniping.

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10-26-2004, 01:55 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwOOsh
You Pens fans always talk about Whitney's great SHORT stint with the baby pens last year, and base that because he played so well he is going to become great... well what about his great stint this year ?

Zeros across the board in the stats department for his first four games…except for the -8 in the plus/minus column.
We don't base it on his Calder Cup run, solely. He was a standout for the US team at not one but two WJC tournaments. He led BU in scoring in his sophomore season. We base it on his skill package, he's a 6'4" guy that can lug the puck and create offense. Therrien singled Whitney out as coming into training camp in fantastic physical condition.

And he does have 2 assists on the season.

He's not the perfect prospect, but in my opinion there's a lot to like about him.


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Old
10-26-2004, 02:13 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt
Heh, classic.

You complain about people not sticking to the topic at hand, and then, two posts later, join in on the sniping.
Well, Ryan Whitney was a pick in the 2002 draft, so it is on topic.

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