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Redo Round 1, 2002.

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Old
10-26-2004, 02:27 PM
  #101
BlindWillyMcHurt
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True, but seeing as how there is going to be an already large contingent of Penguins fans keeping an eye on this thread, it seems like obvious baiting to me. Considering that it is a rather inflammatory and, as you admitted, baseless remark.

But maybe that's just a misconception on my part.

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10-26-2004, 02:44 PM
  #102
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Ryan Whitney and Brooks Orpik are the kind of defenseman you can build around.

There not going to score a hole lot of points, Whitney may, but there going to be very valuable players who are b*tches to play against down the road.


Did Whitney deserve to go #5 overall? at the time? yes...now? no. Is he a bad player? hell no.

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10-26-2004, 02:47 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt
True, but seeing as how there is going to be an already large contingent of Penguins fans keeping an eye on this thread, it seems like obvious baiting to me. Considering that it is a rather inflammatory and, as you admitted, baseless remark.

But maybe that's just a misconception on my part.
It's not baiting, it's my opinion.

Actually, I've seen him play twice, I just don't remember much of him. The guy hasn't done as much as Grebeshkov since the draft, so I don't see why he can stay ahead of Denis in a redo.

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10-26-2004, 02:48 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by X-SHARKIE
Did Whitney deserve to go #5 overall? at the time? yes...now? no. Is he a bad player? hell no.
I don't think anyone ever said he was a bad player. The point is that he doesn't deserve to go top 5 or even top 10 in a redo of the 2002 draft.

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10-26-2004, 02:51 PM
  #105
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I think he can go top 10 in a redo fairly easily. I'd probably put him at 7 behind Lupul and Semin. I most certainly do not consider Grebeshkov a better prospect than Whitney.

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10-26-2004, 03:13 PM
  #106
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Whitney can go top 10 easily. I'd take him over all Defensemen outside of JBo and Pitkanen. Grebeshkov can make his case too, but that wouldn't put Whitney out of the top 10.

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10-26-2004, 03:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jacobv2
We don't base it on his Calder Cup run, solely. He was a standout for the US team at not one but two WJC tournaments. He led BU in scoring in his sophomore season. We base it on his skill package, he's a 6'4" guy that can lug the puck and create offense. Therrien singled Whitney out as coming into training camp in fantastic physical condition.

And he does have 2 assists on the season.

He's not the perfect prospect, but in my opinion there's a lot to like about him.
Now that is a good response, however I seen many Pens fans assaulted that he fell down in ranking from this draft re-do and it seemed as though he was perfect in their eyes.

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10-26-2004, 05:06 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by SwOOsh
Now that is a good response, however I seen many Pens fans assaulted that he fell down in ranking from this draft re-do and it seemed as though he was perfect in their eyes.
Well, it's natural for fans to defend their prospects, but I don't recall anyone claiming that he was perfect.

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10-26-2004, 10:58 PM
  #109
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No one is saying he should be outside of the top 10. He should be in it.


But the backend is where he should be is all I'm saying. 7-8, not 3-5.

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10-27-2004, 12:19 AM
  #110
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All I will say is that if Upshall is available at the Oilers pick and a legit top 5 guy on who can't be passed on (and wouldn't fall to us anyways) then the Oilers would take Upshall with out a doubt. They really liked him.

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10-27-2004, 12:34 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
No one is saying he should be outside of the top 10.
Leafaholix did.

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Old
10-27-2004, 05:14 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
OK......What would you like me to break?

You obviously have not followed him. The other 2 are good, but Whitney has come along well......He more than showed why he was drafted so high in his stint in the AHL last year. He would be on the Pens (probably 2nd pairing) this year if not for the lockout.
Im not to certain that he would have made the big club. Certainly I wouldnt make it an absolute that he would be on the roster.

As for where he would be taken it is anybody's guess if hindsight was an option.
However, I would also take Semin and possibly Lupol. He would be around the 1O-15 range in my book. He showed alot of promise with his AHL playoff run last year, but the players who are mentioned as being ahead of Whitney have had just as impressive (or even better)play for any given length of time.

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10-27-2004, 05:26 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Orpik and Jillson are on their way to first round bust territory. The other guys, it is too early to tell for sure.
And how exactly did you come up with this conclusion on Orpik? He had an outstanding rookie season and got better and better very rapidly as the year progressed.
To say he is headed for a first round bust is a totaly innaccurate statement based on anything but seeing him play. If you had see him play then you would realize if he is "headed" anywhere right now, it is in the exact opposite direction that you are contending.

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10-27-2004, 05:34 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Not that often but this whole site is built around people making comments about players they haven't seen very often if at all, isn't it?

I see a guy who is 24 and has only played 85 NHL games on arguably the easiest defence in the league to crack.
Ok so you are basing it on his age? He was 20 when he was drafted btw and seriously you dont have a clue as to his game.
I could lis a ton of late bloomers as well who are hardly what you would call busts, but instead I am only using that to point out the flaw in your age analysis and in turn I am basing my evaluation on actually having SEEN him play all last season.
This was a great pick by the Pens and I would suggest that you edjucate yourself further instead of basing it on his stats and age.
BTW, you need to keep in mind that he was on a 2 way contract and the Pens management couldnt afford to keep him up with the big club. That is why I said you should edjucate yourself on the individuals entire game and not his age or stats.
I SERIOUSLY want to know why you think he's headed towards busting.

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10-27-2004, 05:45 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The really good ones, which was my original point, move to the front of the line especially on a team with little or no depth.
It was Orpiks decision to stay in school after he was drafted and it was also a wise move to keep him in the AHL for his duration.
Your judgement of him is truly based on blind assumption as was already pointed out. Not that this means much, but I would be willing to bet that you are in the vast minority with this outlook. Yet with all of the great hockey minds and guys who really know thier stuff I would choose to listen to those whose opinions I trust and respect. And I doubt any of those would agree with your assesment.

As for the really good ones moving to the front of the lines that is exactly what happened with Orpik. Again you are assuming that he WASNT near the top of the prospect depth chart when he always was. And with the performance he had last season I would put him ahead of almost every other Pens D-man.
There is something to be said for leaving him in the AHL to learn the pro game regardless of your opinion. They felt he needed a little more time, didnt want to pay his million+ salary and wanted him to compete and recieve plenty of ice time at the pro level.
There just are so many underlying circumstances as to why he didnt play in the NHL full time until last year which is why I know that this opinion is based soley on stats. It is a faulty argument and quite simply a very wrong opinion (which of course you are entitled to).

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Old
10-27-2004, 05:55 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Whatever that's supposed to mean. 24 is 24 no matter where he played.



Does it make him a successful first round pick? Or, could a team find a guy that takes that long to develop in the lower rounds
Now is that your criteria? Of course every team could find a player to take that long to develop as some develop quicker than other and it is an individual we are discussing and not a complete formula for grading a prospect. Team CAN find a player that will take a few years after thier draft to develop, but it isnt as simple as that. He was a first rounder and when looking at his upside teams cant just go out and "find a player in the later rounds" and wait for him to develop without taking into account his upside AND his progression.
As for his progression it isnt like he stalled out and thats why he didnt make the Pens. He has shown progression the entire time and I believe that is what you want from your draft picks when they are DEVELOPING.
If his progression stalled then I could see your point a bit more, yet progression is exactly what he has shown the entire time.

Your opinion has far to many holes in it IMO.

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10-27-2004, 06:11 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
so by your logic, giguere was a bust as well..because he took til age 25-26 to be a successful starter?
So was Martin St.Louis and Robert Lang. We could go on and on listing players but I doubt it would have impact on Moose as it seems he has dug his heels in on this one and wont consider the opinions from people who know alot more about the mitigating circumstances or who have watched Orpik closely.
Moose, Guys who really watch Orpik alot and are knowledgable about the Pens know far more about Orpik than yourself. I would suggest that you listen to those opinions considering you admittedly havent watched him play much and are basing your opinion on faulty reasoning and a flawed formula. If all these people are saying you are wrong that doesnt necessarily make it so, but at least SHOULD make you question your opinion and why you have that opinion. Use the knowledge of guys who are better edjucated on the subject than your own opinion which is based on circumstantial and faulty argument. Alot of guys on here know thier hockey and wouldnt get into a debate basing it on circumstancial evidence. And they certainly wouldnt do it without watching him play enough.

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10-27-2004, 06:14 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Orpik's a goalie? Sorry, I guess I was way off.
No, he is a hockey player. And yes, you are certainly way off.
Would it make you feel better if I listed some defensemen who have taken a bit longer to develop?
And in that draft year how come noone else is a bust despite having played in fewer games basing it on your criteria.

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10-27-2004, 06:24 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Leafaholix did.
I have Whitney at 21. You can make a case for someone having size and offensive skills, but eventually they're going to have to produce. And he hasn't done so since June of 2002. He went from 21 points as a freshman, to 13 and then up to 25 as a junior. This season he's last in the AHL with a -9. I honestly can't see why he's ranked so high, he falls behind Keith Ballard, Denis Grebeshkov, Steve Eminger, Anton Babchuk, and the other 2 (Bouwmeester, Pitkanen) for me. The others have translated skill onto the score sheet, unlike Whitney.

1. Columbus - F Rick Nash (same)
2. Atlanta - G Kari Lehtonen (same)
3. Florida - D Jay Bouwmeester (same)
4. Philadelphia - D Joni Pitkanen (same)
5. Pittsburgh - D Denis Grebeshkov (Instead of D Whitney)
6. Nashville - F Joffrey Lupul (Instead of F Upshall)
7. Anaheim - F Alexander Semin (Instead of F Lupul)
8. Minnesota - G Hannu Toivonen (Instead of F Bouchard, they select F in round 2)
9. Florida - F Pierre-Marc Bouchard (Instead of F Petr Taticek)
10. Calgary - F Alexander Steen (Instead of F Nystrom)
11. Buffalo - D Steve Eminger (Instead of D Ballard)
12. Washington - D Keith Ballard (Instead of D Eminger)
13. Washington - F Christopher Higgins (Instead of F Semin)
14. Mtl. Canadiens - F Matthew Stajan (Instead of F Higgins)
15. Edmonton - G Jeff Deslaurier (Instead of F Niinimaki, they select F in round 2)
16. Ottawa - F Scott Upshall (Instead of F Klepis)
17. Washington - F Petr Taticek (Instead of F Gordon)
18. Los Angeles - D Anton Babchuk (Instead of D Grebeshkov)
19. Phoenix - G David LeNeveu (Instead of F Koreis, they select F in round 2)
20. Buffalo - F Daniel Paille (same)
21. Chicago - D Ryan Whitney (Instead of D Babchuk)
22. NY Islanders - F Jim Slater (Instead of F Bergenheim)
23. Phoenix - F Rob Globke (Instead of F Eager)
24. Toronto - F Tim Brent (Instead of F Steen)
25. Carolina - G Cam Ward (same)
26. Dallas - D Trevor Daley (Instead of D Vagner)
27. San Jose - F Jakub Klepis (Instead of F Morris)
28. Colorado - D Kirill Koltsov (Instead of F Jonas Johansson)
29. Boston - G Josh Harding (Instead of G Hannu Toivonen)
30. Atlanta - F Jiri Hudler (Instead of F Jim Slater)

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10-27-2004, 07:55 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by stardog
No, he is a hockey player. And yes, you are certainly way off.
Would it make you feel better if I listed some defensemen who have taken a bit longer to develop?
And in that draft year how come noone else is a bust despite having played in fewer games basing it on your criteria.
I never wrote that there were no other busts.

Concerning Orpik maybe you aren't just making excuses (didn't want to leave school/team wanted him to develop/team too cheap to pay NHL salary) so lets wait until he actually accomplishes something. If so, I will apologize.

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10-27-2004, 08:15 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
but eventually they're going to have to produce. And he hasn't done so since June of 2002.
Humm, june 2004, Whitney leads his BU team in scoring.
Hummm AHL playoffs, Whitney produces many points en route to AHL Calder CUp finals.

Maybe it's you that can't produce a decent argument?

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10-27-2004, 11:07 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Humm, june 2004, Whitney leads his BU team in scoring.
Hummm AHL playoffs, Whitney produces many points en route to AHL Calder CUp finals.

Maybe it's you that can't produce a decent argument?

Yeah, I'm not sure what Leafaholix is picking on. Whitney played for a less than stellar BU team, leading them in scoring his final year, was named to two WJC teams, and produced 10 points in the AHL playoffs last year. There are several prospects having tough starts this year, I don't think that should undermine their overall potential or accomplishments. Whitney is no differant.


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10-27-2004, 12:58 PM
  #123
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1. Columbus - Rick Nash
2. Atlanta - Kari Lehtonen
3. Florida - Joni Pitkanen
4. Philadelphia - Jay Bouwmeester
5. Pittsburgh - Joffrey Lupul
6. Nashville - Ryan Whitney
7. Anaheim - Alexander Semin
8. Minnesota - Hannu Toivonen
9. Florida - Denis Grebeshkov
10. Calgary - Pierre-Marc Bouchard
11. Buffalo - Steve Eminger
12. Washington - Alex Steen
13. Washington - Christopher Higgins
14. Mtl. Canadiens - Scott Upshall
15. Edmonton - G Jeff Deslaurier
16. Ottawa - Matt Stajan
17. Washington - Keith Ballard
18. Los Angeles - Anton Babchuk
19. Phoenix - David LeNeveu
20. Buffalo - Petr Taticek
21. Chicago - Dan Paille
22. NY Islanders - Jiri Hudler
23. Phoenix - Jim Slater
24. Toronto - Jarett Stoll
25. Carolina - Cam Ward
26. Dallas - Kirill Koltsov
27. San Jose - Boyd Gordon
28. Colorado - Trevor Daley
29. Boston - Josh Harding (happy Boston got Toivonen)
30. Atlanta - Tim Brent

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10-27-2004, 01:24 PM
  #124
Jacob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
I have Whitney at 21. You can make a case for someone having size and offensive skills, but eventually they're going to have to produce. And he hasn't done so since June of 2002. He went from 21 points as a freshman, to 13 and then up to 25 as a junior. This season he's last in the AHL with a -9. I honestly can't see why he's ranked so high, he falls behind Keith Ballard, Denis Grebeshkov, Steve Eminger, Anton Babchuk, and the other 2 (Bouwmeester, Pitkanen) for me. The others have translated skill onto the score sheet, unlike Whitney.)
What do you mean he hasn't produced since June of 2002? As others that are familiar with Whitney have said, in 2002 he played with a high ankle sprain but still had a great WJCs, and last year he led BU in scoring. I'll repeat that, he led BU in scoring. But you say he hasn't produced.

How does he fall behind Ballard? Look at the teams Ballard got to play on at Minnesota, he was sharing powerplay time with Vanek and Paul Martin, Whitney was sharing his powerplay time with Skladany. To boot, Ballard is 2 years older than Whitney is. Grebeshkov, whom you cite as producing more than Whitney, had 9 points last season. Steve Eminger is a fine prospect, but since we're on the point of production, it should be noted that he has scored 6 goals since being drafted. 6. That includes OHL regular season and playoffs.

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Old
10-27-2004, 03:11 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I never wrote that there were no other busts.

Concerning Orpik maybe you aren't just making excuses (didn't want to leave school/team wanted him to develop/team too cheap to pay NHL salary) so lets wait until he actually accomplishes something. If so, I will apologize.
you are unreal

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