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Redo Round 1, 2002.

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Old
10-28-2004, 07:50 PM
  #151
Winston Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
Something like that
You should really delete the quotes around that, because to the passing eye it makes it look like Leafaholix is the retard.

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Old
10-31-2004, 12:08 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Orpik has done nothing of note and Jillson has been traded two, technically three times already.

I don't think this guy watches NHL.
NHL 2004 or 2005 is not a real comparison to the NHL.

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Old
10-31-2004, 09:05 AM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strakakis
I don't think this guy watches NHL.
NHL 2004 or 2005 is not a real comparison to the NHL.
Never played those games, what are they like?

Instead of trying to be cute let me know how I am wrong. Or, is that too difficult?

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Old
10-31-2004, 10:25 AM
  #154
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Lombardi

I'm surprised no one has bumped Matt Lombardi into the top 30... In my books he looks like a top 10, at least top 15 talent from this draft year...

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Old
10-31-2004, 11:27 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
You should really delete the quotes around that, because to the passing eye it makes it look like Leafaholix is the retard.
I agree.


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Old
10-31-2004, 12:06 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time
I'm surprised no one has bumped Matt Lombardi into the top 30... In my books he looks like a top 10, at least top 15 talent from this draft year...
He's overaged (along with Stoll). Not only does this make him ineligible for the threads specifications, I think it's very hard to compare him with the others, since he's fully two years older than a lot of the players.

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Old
11-01-2004, 03:28 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwOOsh
Thanks for pointing out the point of my post. I was saying that Penguins fans base that Whitney is great on the few games he played last year, but now that he has played bad in a few games this year should be base our opinion off that.

I have a great quote for you to follow "Think about what you say next time before you say it because again, you are letting things besides logic speak for you"
No, Swoosh. As per usual, your post really doesnt have a point. It has an agenda. Your agenda is simple to follow and it is blind. Dont try to debate facts or logic with me because I will make you look silly as I have done numerous times.
My point is two-fold. One is that you simply cant get a great read on what he will become by what he has done thus far in the AHL. The funny thing is that you (again) lashed out as Pens fans when they choose to use his playoff stint from last year as evidence to what type of an impact he will have in his career. You then say that it isnt enough time to get a true read on what his pro career would look like AND THEN you come back and use his stats from an entire SIX games to bolster your argument.
That is a classic case of hypocrasy.
And when you are called on it and when someone catches you in the trap, you then say that I am making your case for you.
Do not sit there and try to tell me I helped your cause in any way. You were caught in a hypocritical statement. You chose to look at his 6 games this year as evidence to bolster your point that he was a poor pick. And, of course you chose to ignore his playoff run. Dont try to change your stance now and say that you were in agreement with what I was saying all along, because you werent. And you were caught (quite easily) and called onto the carpet.
As for your little quote at the end Swoosh, if you want to get smart with me then go ahead. Envy is a terrible thing to live with but it is your choice. I could point out MANY times where your logic and reasoning have been called into question AND proven to be wrong.
Can you do the same for me?
Didnt think so kid...

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Old
11-01-2004, 03:30 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time
Semin above Pitkanen?
I wish...then Pitkanen would have fell to the Pens at #5...

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Old
11-01-2004, 03:34 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Never played those games, what are they like?

Instead of trying to be cute let me know how I am wrong. Or, is that too difficult?
What is the point if you wont listen to any type of reason whatsoever? People have pointed out in this thread alone why your statements were wrong, yet you cant back them up with anything other than weak circumstatial evidence.
Why ask for someone to point out why you are wrong, when it has been done numerous times already and you refuse to budge or even show that you are willing to take others thoughts into consideration?
It is quite pointless to respond and ask for someone to point out where you are wrong when it has been done several times in this thread and you wont even consider that you are clearly wrong.

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Old
11-01-2004, 08:12 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
No, Swoosh. As per usual, your post really doesnt have a point. It has an agenda. Your agenda is simple to follow and it is blind. Dont try to debate facts or logic with me because I will make you look silly as I have done numerous times.
My point is two-fold. One is that you simply cant get a great read on what he will become by what he has done thus far in the AHL. The funny thing is that you (again) lashed out as Pens fans when they choose to use his playoff stint from last year as evidence to what type of an impact he will have in his career. You then say that it isnt enough time to get a true read on what his pro career would look like AND THEN you come back and use his stats from an entire SIX games to bolster your argument.
That is a classic case of hypocrasy.
And when you are called on it and when someone catches you in the trap, you then say that I am making your case for you.
Do not sit there and try to tell me I helped your cause in any way. You were caught in a hypocritical statement. You chose to look at his 6 games this year as evidence to bolster your point that he was a poor pick. And, of course you chose to ignore his playoff run. Dont try to change your stance now and say that you were in agreement with what I was saying all along, because you werent. And you were caught (quite easily) and called onto the carpet.
As for your little quote at the end Swoosh, if you want to get smart with me then go ahead. Envy is a terrible thing to live with but it is your choice. I could point out MANY times where your logic and reasoning have been called into question AND proven to be wrong.
Can you do the same for me?
Didnt think so kid...
Whatever I'm not even going to bother.


Last edited by SwOOsh*: 11-01-2004 at 08:41 PM.
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Old
11-01-2004, 09:03 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SauveQuiPeut
It's not like he led his college team in scoring or anything, we obviously must be judging him on one thing and nothing else.
Swoosh, you seem to be ignoring this post. Why?


This entire topic is pretty much a fantasy-land waste of time. It's been 2 years since the draft, and in two years time you can't tell much, nor properly evaluate the draft, let alone re-slate all of the picks.

Most of the players have yet to even play an NHL game. Only 19 of the first 63 picks (2 rounds) have played in the NHL for a season, if you want to count Kari Lehtonen (4 games), Scott Upshall (15 games), Chris Higgins (2 games), Denis Grebeshkov (4 games), Anton Babchuk (5 games), Sean Bergenheim (18 games), Trevor Daley (27 games), and Jiri Hudler (12 games).

Take away those players and you only have 11. Of those 11, only Nash, Bouwmeester, and Bouchard have played in more than one season.

My point is that there's no constant to judge these players by. And why would there be after only two seasons? Players have different paths to the NHL. Most CHL players take a year or two to start even at the AHL level, most college players about the same. Many European players spend a year or two or three in their own country in a pro league developing.

But all of that is only in preperation for the NHL, where the players will ultimately be judged. And how can you pass so much judgement without seeing most players play yourself (I'm assuming here) or not having most of the picks even begin playing in the NHL here?

I'm not trying to ruin the fun; I'm not trying to bash anyone's list. But lists, rerankings, and some analysis at this point can't be given much weight, because the time that has passed isn't significant enough.

Sure, some judgements can be made based on what a player has done, but let's give these players a little more time.

I'll comment a little bit on Whitney, since I'm assuming that he's been a hot topic in this thread (I didn't really have the patience to do anything other than skim a few pages).

He hasn't developed as the Penguins would have hopes; he's had plenty of highs and lows. His team at BU was just no very good. He put up good numbers, and even led the team in scoring. According to reports, his defensive play was inconsistent and that remains a flaw of his today. (Although I'll contend that with good coaching, which he will get from Michel Therrien and Mike Yeo, the defensive mistakes will be minimized).

He had an ankle injury for a while that hampered him. He was very good last year in pretty much every game he played for Wilkes Barre last year, and was likely the top defensemen on the team for a while.

He got off to a rough start this year, as did the entire Wilkes Barre team. The team defense played poorly, and the goaltending wasn't good either. Wilkes Barre also faced some very good teams, like Manitoba (AHL's two leading scorers at the moment), Manchester (undefeated), and Lowell (Eric Staal). Whitney was a -4 against Manitoba and a -3 against Manchester, which created an inflated +/- stat after only two games, which the entire team played poorly.

He was even and a plus-1 for one game over the next few games, and then was a -3 again against Albany. That entire game was decieving, because it was close all the way, and the Pens led at one point, but then Albany scored four times over a 4-5 minute span, a result of some bad defensive breakdowns (I remember Whitney being the blame for one of them, some others like Koci and Nasreddinne for others).

Since that game, Whitney has been solid, yet retains a bad -7 +/-. He's had ups and downs this season as well.


But my point was not to defend Whitney. I think the entire premise behind re-doing a 2-year old draft is ridiculous and unfounded. Of of the most basic rules of analyzing or observing something is that there be some kind of constant, and there just isn't any here. It will be a good 3 or 4 years before we can really tell which were good picks and which were bad ones.

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Old
11-01-2004, 10:29 PM
  #162
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My post was more to the fact that lots of Pens fans based Whitney's great performance on his short playoff stint last year, and now that he didn't play well in these few games should they base there opinion off that. I know that not every Penguins fan is guilty of this, but I have seen quite a few times that when it's time to defend Whitney be it for draft position etc. they just base there defense off of that playoff stint. I actually think Whitney is a good defenseman and with a bit of conditioning should become a top pairing guy for the Penguins in the future.

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Old
11-02-2004, 12:00 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwOOsh
Whatever I'm not even going to bother.
Like I said....didnt think so kid

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Old
11-02-2004, 12:09 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwOOsh
Whatever I'm not even going to bother.
Game, set, match.

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Old
11-02-2004, 08:31 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Like I said....didnt think so kid
Ok buddy... first it was pretty evident what the point of that post was and most people got it, secondly just because your still in denial that the Penguins tried to tank the season along with the Capitals and yet you still say they didn't :lol well it's clear to others that they both made a strong case in doing it... your post shows your maturity instead of dealing with what I said about Whitney you attacked me as usual, get a life...oh yeah i never got to say that it was great beating the pens, not coming last, and still winning the lottery and getting ovechkin thanks come again

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Old
11-02-2004, 11:24 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Orpik and Jillson are on their way to first round bust territory. The other guys, it is too early to tell for sure.
Ladies and Gentleman, I present to you HF's best post ever. Congrats Moose!!

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Old
11-12-2004, 01:05 PM
  #167
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Im curious why people are continually putting Deslauriers and sometimes Ward ahead of Leneveu?

Since the WJCs when Leneveu beat both of them out to be Fleury's backup, Leneveu has arguably had better progress, becoming an AHL All-Star last year while they were still in juniors.

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Old
11-12-2004, 01:39 PM
  #168
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I love the debates that continually happen about Deslauriers, Ward, Leneveu, and Harding.

Face it everyone, they are VERY close to each other right now and none of them has pulled ahead of the rest. Yes, some beat out some to backup Fleury at the WJC, but that really doesn't mean too much in terms of NHL potential. Lots of great players never made their WJC teams.

All four are great goalie prospects and we won't really know who is better then who until they are all playing in the NHL against each other. They really are too close to call...

Can we give it a rest for a bit?

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Old
11-12-2004, 01:55 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Im curious why people are continually putting Deslauriers and sometimes Ward ahead of Leneveu?

Since the WJCs when Leneveu beat both of them out to be Fleury's backup, Leneveu has arguably had better progress, becoming an AHL All-Star last year while they were still in juniors.
And boy, did Leneveu ever excell as a backup in that tourney too... he couldn't even last a full game against a weak Finnish team...

Added to the fact that Leneveu is a year older than JDD, and that would explain why he was in the AHL while JDD was in junior.

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11-12-2004, 02:41 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
I'm not a Penguins fan, but when you discount Ryan Whitney simply because he hasn't played in the NHL, yet praise Ovechkin at every turn, your double standard is quite apparent.

Of course it's a gamble when you're talking about proven/unproven commodities, but just how much more proven is a guy like Semin who's only played 50 games on an NHL club with an AHL caliber roster for much of the year? It's not like Semin set the league on fire or anything, so I don't see how taking Whitney over Semin is so absurd if that's their own personal preference.
I'd have to disagree, Ovechkin hasn't had an opportunity to play in the NHL yet, wheras Whitney has. However I agree, it's unfair to judge based on a player being given time to develop. (for example Alexander Steen likely SHOULD have beaten Stajan out for the Leafs centreman spot last season, had he of been coming over, however since he was staying in Europe for his own benefit, Stajan got it, and both players got better. I'd still expect better things from Steen, however if we get anywhere near as good of play from him as we did from Stajan, I'd say Toronto had a good draft year)

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Old
11-12-2004, 04:01 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
I'd have to disagree, Ovechkin hasn't had an opportunity to play in the NHL yet, wheras Whitney has.
He was in college, getting his degree!

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Old
11-12-2004, 05:55 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
He was in college, getting his degree!
Whitney still HAD the opportunity to come play. I never said why he didn't play. I never said I thought he made the wrong choice. Simply that Ovechkin hasn't had ANY oportunity to play even if he wanted to, whereas Whitney had. I am not trying to take anything away from Whitney in that comment, nor would I want to as I like him very much as a prospect.

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Old
11-13-2004, 06:35 AM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
I love the debates that continually happen about Deslauriers, Ward, Leneveu, and Harding.

Face it everyone, they are VERY close to each other right now and none of them has pulled ahead of the rest. Yes, some beat out some to backup Fleury at the WJC, but that really doesn't mean too much in terms of NHL potential. Lots of great players never made their WJC teams.

All four are great goalie prospects and we won't really know who is better then who until they are all playing in the NHL against each other. They really are too close to call...

Can we give it a rest for a bit?
Sorry.. its the first time I've considered the issue since the WJCs.

I agree with your view but if you took that view, wouldnt you expect to see a mixture of rankings in this thread rather than Deslauriers always being placed higher? I am guessing the main reason is probably simply because Leneveu was drafted later.

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Old
11-13-2004, 02:10 PM
  #174
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i sure hope whitney develops into a DOMINATING defenseman, simply for all the unfair garbage he takes on here.. jeez

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Old
11-13-2004, 06:33 PM
  #175
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That'd be nice, for sure.

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