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"Busts" Who Can Still Make It?

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10-22-2004, 06:35 PM
  #1
Moskau
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"Busts" Who Can Still Make It?

Sorry for the confusing title.

What prospects do you think could still make it to the NHL even though most people have written them off as busts?

I'm talking more about guys who are no where near the NHL at the moment, not guys like Brendl.

I'll start with one from my team, Artem Kriukov. No one talks about him of course, after a concussion near the draft and being hidden in Russia for a few years, but if he fullfills some of his potential he could take many people by supise.


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10-22-2004, 06:43 PM
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Fleury

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10-22-2004, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazorRamon12
Fleury

Theo doesn't play anymore.

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10-22-2004, 06:57 PM
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I wouldn't call Fleury a bust quite yet. Playing behind the defense from last year... ugh...

Either way, I'd like to nominate Ric Jackman. After being traded to the Pens he averaged jsut under 1 point per game. Some people jsut seem to play better in Pittsburgh (cough Kovy cough).

Edit- Just in case you're not joking, I'm roughly sure he meant Marc-Andre Fleury.

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10-22-2004, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
Sorry for the confusing title.

What prospects do you think could still make it to the NHL even though most people have written them off as busts?

I'm not talking more about guys who are no where near the NHL at the moment, not guys like Brendl.

I'll start with one from my team, Artem Kriukov. No one talks about him of course, after a concussion near the draft and being hidden in Russia for a few years, but if he fullfills some of his potential he could take many people by supise.
What's wrong with Kryukov?

He's played like 75 games in 5 years and hasn't even hit 10 points at any level since 1999, maybe even longer, but that'll likely change this year since he's at 8 in 19 games with Lokomotiv.

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10-22-2004, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
Either way, I'd like to nominate Ric Jackman. After being traded to the Pens he averaged jsut under 1 point per game. Some people jsut seem to play better in Pittsburgh (cough Kovy cough).
Well, that means nothing if they can't perform in situations that actually matter. Ric Jackman was a horrendous player in Toronto when it wasn't the preseason. This isn't a bitter Leaf fan speaking, just a guy that had high hopes for Jacko a couple years ago and he didn't managed to impress for more than 1 shift every 10 or 15 games (if that).

He may score 30-40 points with Pittsburgh, but no actual contender will ever have any use for him in the future.

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10-22-2004, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
Edit- Just in case you're not joking, I'm roughly sure he meant Marc-Andre Fleury.
I was joking.

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10-22-2004, 07:53 PM
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One guy that people are writing off as a bust...Taylor Pyatt. Sabres fans, in general, keep wanting to see more...and with good reason. He sneaks in that dominating effort every so often. I think it will come out in the near future.

Kryukov I wouldn't really label as a bust (ie wasted pick). He had concussion problems and thats about it. He has shown the talent and he has shown a willingness to come across the pond and play in North America. He has had a good showing thus far in RSL (as his numbers show) so things are looking promising.

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10-22-2004, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Well, that means nothing if they can't perform in situations that actually matter. Ric Jackman was a horrendous player in Toronto when it wasn't the preseason. This isn't a bitter Leaf fan speaking, just a guy that had high hopes for Jacko a couple years ago and he didn't managed to impress for more than 1 shift every 10 or 15 games (if that).

He may score 30-40 points with Pittsburgh, but no actual contender will ever have any use for him in the future.

Any Pens fan can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Ric Jackman scored the winning goal (OT?) to snap the Penguins record breaking losing streak. Then helped carry the Pens to a 12-5-3 record in the last 20 games (best in the NHL.)

Keep in mind the only major addition between the Pens losing a record amount and then going straight to being one of the best teams the last leg of the season was Ric Jackman. Lasse Pirjeta and Landon Wilson came on late and contrbuted but Ric Jackman pretty much picked that team up by its collar and almost lost us our vice grip on the #1 lottery spot.

The Pressure situation argument may have some validity to it, but I think just being out of Toronto and in Pittsburgh has helped his confidence greatly. And the question isn't whwther they have but if they still can, and I certainly think he still can become one of the high-end scoring D-men in the NHL.

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10-22-2004, 08:00 PM
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Jeff Heerema?

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10-22-2004, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Well, that means nothing if they can't perform in situations that actually matter. Ric Jackman was a horrendous player in Toronto when it wasn't the preseason. This isn't a bitter Leaf fan speaking, just a guy that had high hopes for Jacko a couple years ago and he didn't managed to impress for more than 1 shift every 10 or 15 games (if that).

He may score 30-40 points with Pittsburgh, but no actual contender will ever have any use for him in the future.
That is a very bold statement. Sounds like a bitter fan to me. Jackman is looking rather nicely now that he is out of Toronto. As a Flames fan where Calgary has great depth at defense I would gladly take Jackman for what the Penguins gave up for him. The Leafs got burnt on that deal for sure.

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10-22-2004, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
Any Pens fan can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Ric Jackman scored the winning goal (OT?) to snap the Penguins record breaking losing streak. Then helped carry the Pens to a 12-5-3 record in the last 20 games (best in the NHL.)

Keep in mind the only major addition between the Pens losing a record amount and then going straight to being one of the best teams the last leg of the season was Ric Jackman. Lasse Pirjeta and Landon Wilson came on late and contrbuted but Ric Jackman pretty much picked that team up by its collar and almost lost us our vice grip on the #1 lottery spot.

The Pressure situation argument may have some validity to it, but I think just being out of Toronto and in Pittsburgh has helped his confidence greatly. And the question isn't whwther they have but if they still can, and I certainly think he still can become one of the high-end scoring D-men in the NHL.
I'm not saying he won't score 30, 40, 50 points in Pittsburgh. But he's just another Andy Delmore type player. Extremely good producer under no pressure, but when it's on (playing on a team with actual fan support and attention), he'll fold like a cheap suit.

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10-22-2004, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
That is a very bold statement. Sounds like a bitter fan to me. Jackman is looking rather nicely now that he is out of Toronto. As a Flames fan where Calgary has great depth at defense I would gladly take Jackman for what the Penguins gave up for him. The Leafs got burnt on that deal for sure.
As I said, not bitter. Honest to God, I wouldn't take Jacko back if it cost a 7th round pick. Maybe a 9th rounder, he can definitely help out in St. John's.

The Leafs didn't get burned. When you trade nothing for nothing, you get nothing. The Leafs would have been lucky to get a 7th or 8th rounder for Jackman, it would have been cheaper to let him stay in St. John's, the trade meant nothing for Toronto.

JFJ did Jackman a favour and let him go to a contender where he could get the minutes to play, he was getting fat.

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10-22-2004, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hero of Tragedy
One guy that people are writing off as a bust...Taylor Pyatt. Sabres fans, in general, keep wanting to see more...and with good reason. He sneaks in that dominating effort every so often. I think it will come out in the near future..
I like this pick. It probably won't be in Buffalo though. Well, that is unless the finally get rid of Ruff.

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10-22-2004, 08:21 PM
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Alexander Buturlin has fallen under the radar but he is still an awesome player from what I have seen and I'm sure he could be great if given the chance. He is playing in RSL right now and doing pretty well.

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10-22-2004, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero of Tragedy
One guy that people are writing off as a bust...Taylor Pyatt. Sabres fans, in general, keep wanting to see more...and with good reason. He sneaks in that dominating effort every so often. I think it will come out in the near future.
Pyatt has no heart though. I'd take Tim Connolly over Taylor Pyatt in the heart department, Connolly being a 2/10 and Pyatt a 1/10.

Hell, it may not even be that close, Connolly has added over 10+ of muscle every year the past 2 years, shed ALOT of weight to get back into playing shape, and signed in Switzerland.

Pyatt has done nothing. He hasn't signed a contract anywhere, he hasn't scored a goal since 2003. He uses hockey as a means to get ass.

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10-22-2004, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
but when it's on (playing on a team with actual fan support and attention), he'll fold like a cheap suit.

True. I can see what you mean. Let's say, hypothetically, Jackman's going to play in a town with slighlty better than good fan support.

And maybe the the team they're playing is fighting for position in the playoffs.

And maybe everyone in the stadium is booing him relentlessly for some reason.

And just to add fuel to the fire, maybe the Penguins were to happen to be coing off a really bad losing streak and the fans were dying for him (perhaps this was right around teh time he was traded) to start a big turnaround.

Also, icing on the cake, let's jsut say the town is Toronto, his former team.

Of course he'd fold under the pressure and fail miserably. Ric could never perform ina situation like this.

(Or maybe he'd notch a first period goal in a 3-2 win for the Pens. Either that or fail miserably. Whichever. But we'll never know, since this is an entirely hypothetical situation and all.)

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10-22-2004, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
True. I can see what you mean. Let's say, hypothetically, Jackman's going to play in a town with slighlty better than good fan support.

And maybe the the team they're playing is fighting for position in the playoffs.

And maybe everyone in the stadium is booing him relentlessly for some reason.

And just to add fuel to the fire, maybe the Penguins were to happen to be coing off a really bad losing streak and the fans were dying for him (perhaps this was right around teh time he was traded) to start a big turnaround.

Also, icing on the cake, let's jsut say the town is Toronto, his former team.

Of course he'd fold under the pressure and fail miserably. Ric could never perform ina situation like this.

(Or maybe he'd notch a first period goal in a 3-2 win for the Pens. Either that or fail miserably. Whichever. But we'll never know, since this is an entirely hypothetical situation and all.)

post of the year.

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10-22-2004, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
Pyatt has no heart though. I'd take Tim Connolly over Taylor Pyatt in the heart department, Connolly being a 2/10 and Pyatt a 1/10.

Hell, it may not even be that close, Connolly has added over 10+ of muscle every year the past 2 years, shed ALOT of weight to get back into playing shape, and signed in Switzerland.

Pyatt has done nothing. He hasn't signed a contract anywhere, he hasn't scored a goal since 2003. He uses hockey as a means to get ass.
If you don't want him then I'll take him in SJ.

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10-22-2004, 08:45 PM
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10-22-2004, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
True. I can see what you mean. Let's say, hypothetically, Jackman's going to play in a town with slighlty better than good fan support.

And maybe the the team they're playing is fighting for position in the playoffs.

And maybe everyone in the stadium is booing him relentlessly for some reason.

And just to add fuel to the fire, maybe the Penguins were to happen to be coing off a really bad losing streak and the fans were dying for him (perhaps this was right around teh time he was traded) to start a big turnaround.

Also, icing on the cake, let's jsut say the town is Toronto, his former team.

Of course he'd fold under the pressure and fail miserably. Ric could never perform ina situation like this.

(Or maybe he'd notch a first period goal in a 3-2 win for the Pens. Either that or fail miserably. Whichever. But we'll never know, since this is an entirely hypothetical situation and all.)
Yes, post of the year indeed. Jacko scores on a shot from the point on Trevor Kidd and that erases 2 absolutely horrendous seasons. And prior to that scores 1 on rookie Mikael Tellqvist in a 8-4 loss. Yes, that too makes up for 2 awful years of hockey.

I think you need to have seen him play in Toronto before doubting the facts. The facts being that the Leafs would have had an incredibly difficult time acquiring a 7th or 8th round pick for the guy if professional scouts saw him play. He was opening his mouth and making comments to the media about the lack of icetime he was getting weeks before JFJ traded him.

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10-22-2004, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Yes, post of the year indeed. Jacko scores on a shot from the point on Trevor Kidd and that erases 2 absolutely horrendous seasons. And prior to that scores 1 on rookie Mikael Tellqvist in a 8-4 loss. Yes, that too makes up for 2 awful years of hockey.

I think you need to have seen him play in Toronto before doubting the facts. The facts being that the Leafs would have had an incredibly difficult time acquiring a 7th or 8th round pick for the guy if professional scouts saw him play. He was opening his mouth and making comments to the media about the lack of icetime he was getting weeks before JFJ traded him.

I'm not saying it erases two years of horirble season on the Leafs (which, as a Penguins fam, I could not pssibly care less about even if I tried really hard) I'm not saying it helps to disprove your claim that he couldn't perform under pressure.

What I'm saying is since getting out of the media guantlet in Toronto, Ric has played very well, in pressure situations, and is starting to fulfill his potential. Ever since getting out of Toronto he's been a new player. You can talk about how horrible of a miserable player he was in Toronto and how he sucked and you hated him and everyone else hated him and he sucked and he played bad...

But then he came to Pittsburgh, suffered through the tail end of the worst losing streak in NHL history (didn't complain a word) scored an OT goal to end it, played hard, helped the team to a 12-5-3 record in the last twenty games, and became one of Pens fans' favorite players. And we love the guy. And you took Drake Berehowsky off our hands. Thanks.

He's starting to fulfill his potential. No matter how badly he played in Toronto, he's playing great in Pittsburgh. Maybe he would've continued to suck in Toronto with every fan and team exec breathing down his neck demanding he play damn well or they'd run another editorial in the paper and chanting their displeasures with his development, maybe Toronto traded him just before he finally broke out, but either way he's starting to shed the "bust" label. And that's what you asked for. If he didn't perform horribly in Toronto, I couldn't include him in this thread to begin with.

/rant

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10-22-2004, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
I'm not saying it erases two years of horirble season on the Leafs (which, as a Penguins fam, I could not pssibly care less about even if I tried really hard) I'm not saying it helps to disprove your claim that he couldn't perform under pressure.

What I'm saying is since getting out of the media guantlet in Toronto, Ric has played very well, in pressure situations, and is starting to fulfill his potential. Ever since getting out of Toronto he's been a new player. You can talk about how horrible of a miserable player he was in Toronto and how he sucked and you hated him and everyone else hated him and he sucked and he played bad...

But then he came to Pittsburgh, suffered through the tail end of the worst losing streak in NHL history (didn't complain a word) scored an OT goal to end it, played hard, helped the team to a 12-5-3 record in the last twenty games, and became one of Pens fans' favorite players. And we love the guy. And you took Drake Berehowsky off our hands. Thanks.

He's starting to fulfill his potential. No matter how badly he played in Toronto, he's playing great in Pittsburgh. Maybe he would've continued to suck in Toronto with every fan and team exec breathing down his neck demanding he play damn well or they'd run another editorial in the paper and chanting their displeasures with his development, maybe Toronto traded him just before he finally broke out, but either way he's starting to shed the "bust" label. And that's what you asked for. If he didn't perform horribly in Toronto, I couldn't include him in this thread to begin with.

/rant
Couple things...

He was not "hated" in Toronto. The fans didn't dislike him, they just never thought highly of his performance. He was a non-factor every shift he was on the ice, so much so that he actually made Aki Berg look like a top pairing defenseman.

The guy had a good package of abilities, but he was lost every second he was playing and was horrible with the puck. Off the ice, from what I hear he was a really good guy and his teammates liked him. The fans never had anything negative to say about the guy off the ice, but he was a bad player.

But it's nice to know in 25 games he's a "new player" and that you really enjoy having a guy on your team that plays well when there's nothing on the line, no attention, and only 10,000 fans in the stands.

I've seen Jacko play for 2 years and I don't think he'll ever be anything more than a #7 guy on an average NHL team, he'll be a guy like Andy Delmore. He'll put up good numbers in Pittsburgh, but if the Pens ever decide to trade him if he manages 30 or 40 points for a couple years, they'll be the victors in that trade.

He's an elite AHL player, a mediocre reserve player in the NHL, and a good player for a bottom 5 NHL team.

I'm actually curious what you'd think of Brad Leeb or Josh Holden if they were the guys Toronto traded and they happened to score that OT goal. Brad Leeb, a future "star"? Josh Holden, a high draft pick that managed to breakout once he left Toronto?

I hope all the best for Jacko, he'll be a star in Pittsburgh, but he'll never be a great (or even above average) defenseman in the NHL on any other team. I mean, somebody's got to rack up the points for Pittsburgh, right?

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10-22-2004, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
I'm not saying it erases two years of horirble season on the Leafs (which, as a Penguins fam, I could not pssibly care less about even if I tried really hard) I'm not saying it helps to disprove your claim that he couldn't perform under pressure.

What I'm saying is since getting out of the media guantlet in Toronto, Ric has played very well, in pressure situations, and is starting to fulfill his potential. Ever since getting out of Toronto he's been a new player. You can talk about how horrible of a miserable player he was in Toronto and how he sucked and you hated him and everyone else hated him and he sucked and he played bad...

But then he came to Pittsburgh, suffered through the tail end of the worst losing streak in NHL history (didn't complain a word) scored an OT goal to end it, played hard, helped the team to a 12-5-3 record in the last twenty games, and became one of Pens fans' favorite players. And we love the guy. And you took Drake Berehowsky off our hands. Thanks.

He's starting to fulfill his potential. No matter how badly he played in Toronto, he's playing great in Pittsburgh. Maybe he would've continued to suck in Toronto with every fan and team exec breathing down his neck demanding he play damn well or they'd run another editorial in the paper and chanting their displeasures with his development, maybe Toronto traded him just before he finally broke out, but either way he's starting to shed the "bust" label. And that's what you asked for. If he didn't perform horribly in Toronto, I couldn't include him in this thread to begin with.

/rant
I think it can take defenseman much longer to "get it" at the NHL level. I really don't consider a d-man a bust until he's at least 24-25 YO.

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10-22-2004, 10:30 PM
  #25
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He was one of the top players on a team that had the best record in all of the NHL for the last 20 games of the season.

Can only perform with 10,000 people in the stands? Did you not notice him helping the Pens win IN Toronto. Or was this one of those Leafs games where only 10,000 people showed up? The Leafs have horrible fan support, I know...

Someone has to rack up the points for Pittsburgh? Well, Ryan Malone was doing a damn good job, as was Dick Tarnstrom, Milan Kraft, the such... but someone has to score the goals, right? I mean, when you're going 6 games undefeated oftentimes someone is scoring goals. Usually. Most the time. On rare occasions, people also get assists. This never has to do with the team playing like it's on the playoffs for the bubble, and not like it had been eliminated months ago. Never. In fact, it's impossible. Playing hard != victory.


Here's the problem we seem to have here: You remember the times when Ric was bad, I remember the time afterwards when Ric was good. One of us is partially connecting the upcoming of the Penguins to the acquisition of Ric, the other is saying it's obviously random occurence and the direct result of the inevitability that goals will be scored. Usually 3-4 at a time. Sometimes, more goals than the other team scores. Entirely at random.



But goals have to be scored, right?

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