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Old
02-07-2012, 02:32 PM
  #101
Erza Scarlet
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
No.. Keith is an amazing defender.
well looks like he was an amazing defender. I've watched Keith the last 2 years, he seems to be regressing.

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02-07-2012, 02:33 PM
  #102
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Gardiner is certainly a work in progress, but he hasn't been bad defensively..Ronnie's been giving Gards more Short-handed ice time lately, a sign of confidence for sure.

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02-07-2012, 02:37 PM
  #103
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I don't know, I've been actually really impressed with Gardiner defensively, but disapointed with him offensively. Which is definitely the way I'd prefer it with a young defenseman. You can't expect a rookie to come into the NHL and put up #1 D-man defense, I think the way he has played this year bodes very, very well for his future.

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02-07-2012, 02:37 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Stamshot View Post
Well, i only have this to say, when Keith was in the minors, how many people thought he would be CHI future no.1?

Well, Jake has all of what, 12 minor games I believe? Why dont we go with the wait and see approach, writing off any players potential is never a good idea.
Not every players development is the same, this isn't NHL either. Keith got better because he was able to play on a good development team.

I'm not writing off his potential. I just feel he is grossly overrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezle View Post
well looks like he was an amazing defender. I've watched Keith the last 2 years, he seems to be regressing.
He had a career year, it would be crazy to expect that from him year in and year old. He's still a #1.

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02-07-2012, 02:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Not every players development is the same, this isn't NHL either. Keith got better because he was able to play on a good development team.

I'm not writing off his potential. I just feel he is grossly overrated.


.
Fair Enough, i respect that. But why do you consider toronto a poor development team?

We have the youngest team in the league IIRC, and we are in playoff contention?

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02-07-2012, 02:39 PM
  #106
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He has a very high ceiling for all of his game, he's got offensive potential and defensive potential not to mention he's a fairly good height and if he could add muscle without slowing down he can be a star defensemen.

Even though he doesn't weigh a lot he uses his body and angles well, like Gunnarson, not as well as Gunnar, but pretty close.

To say he is bad in the defensive zone is such a huge lie, he leads the team in +/- with Schenn, and to those who say +/- means nothing, I think it means something for a team only +12 goal differential. For a team like Boston or Columbus +/- is harder to read, but for teams in the middle of the pack, I think it's a good sign.

BIitz I can't fathom how little confidence/respect you have for this kid, to come in here and be so calm and control the puck as well as he does, at his age is great. Saying he's a second pairing defensemen is going the safe route, he easily has potential to be a #2 or even #1 defensemen.

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02-07-2012, 02:55 PM
  #107
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Not even Duncan Keith was Duncan Keith at Gardiners age, I'd love to see how well Gardiner can play when he reaches Keith's break-out age.

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02-07-2012, 02:56 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stamshot View Post
Fair Enough, i respect that. But why do you consider toronto a poor development team?

We have the youngest team in the league IIRC, and we are in playoff contention?
Oh I didn't mean to imply we had poor development, we actually have great development in the A. I'm just saying each player is different. Samsonov looked great in his rookie season and spiraled downwards.

Like I said, I think Gardiner can be good, but the mistakes he makes now are ignored because he's a rookie. Come sophmore time he either learns fast, or he gets the Schenn treatment.

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02-07-2012, 03:17 PM
  #109
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As of right now how does Gardiner stand in the Calder race?

I'd say hes right up there as the #1 defenseman, now obviously no where near RNH but i was livid when i found out he wasnt participating in the Rookie portion of the allstar game. Rafael Diaz a -6 with 4 less minutes, less games and less points... COMON the league needs to be less obvious with marketing to get the habs fans to watch the game.

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02-07-2012, 03:25 PM
  #110
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Food for thought:

Duncan Keith didn't have a full-time job with the Hawks till the age of 23. What Gardiner is doing at 21 is pretty impressive.

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02-07-2012, 03:30 PM
  #111
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Calder is probably out of reach unless he goes on some insane scoring streak for the last part of the season. That would be sweet though. If he could somehow break 40 points and keep his +- good, he would have a good chance especially if the RNH is injured for any length of time.

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02-07-2012, 03:32 PM
  #112
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this kid is fantastic. his patience with the puck is remarkable...neutalized the sens big time saturday night. best part? his contract, rookie playing ahead of his years

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02-07-2012, 03:35 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Oh I didn't mean to imply we had poor development, we actually have great development in the A. I'm just saying each player is different. Samsonov looked great in his rookie season and spiraled downwards.

Like I said, I think Gardiner can be good, but the mistakes he makes now are ignored because he's a rookie. Come sophmore time he either learns fast, or he gets the Schenn treatment.
Ding ding ding.

People forgive mistakes for rookies because of the positive-impact plays they make.

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02-07-2012, 03:40 PM
  #114
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Keith won a Norris, it's highly unlikely that Gardiner will ever be that good, as I said earlier I'll be very happy if he can mature into a guy who's as good as Brian Campbell. With that being said, I don't really get why BIitz is ripping on his defensive game, IMO he plays very good defense for a 21 year old rookie dman, whose main strength is offense. He uses his speed very well in the defensive zone, I think he does a good job of winning puck battles, he's rarely beaten 1 on 1, he has an active stick, and in general his positioning is pretty solid for a rookie. Sure he makes mistakes and gets caught out of position, but so do all rookie dmen. He's also very calm and composed with the puck in his own zone, great at retrieving the puck and safely starting the breakout, which is a HUGE part of being an effective defensive dman (no point in recovering the puck if you can't break out properly).

He has a lot to work on, like any rookie dman, but I think he has top pairing upside, seems to me he's a guy who'll be an elite skater, very good puck mover, good in the offensive zone, and good in the defensive zone. Should be a terrific player by his mid 20s. Everyone loves all-around, smooth skating, 2-way dmen like Keith, Suter, Campbell, Boyle, etc., not saying he's going to be as good as these guys, but he'll play a similar style of game.

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02-07-2012, 03:51 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Fact on the position he has usually which is poor, fact that he gets beaten down low, fact that he doesn't come out of corners with the puck, fact that he plays 2 on 1's poorly.

opinion that he isn't very strong, opinion that his speed is the only thing he has going defensively.
He is a natural when it comes to positioning - both zone positioning, and just as importantly body positioning along the boards, allowing him to win puck battles before they even start.

Not sure what player you are watching.

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02-07-2012, 03:52 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Keith won a Norris, it's highly unlikely that Gardiner will ever be that good, as I said earlier I'll be very happy if he can mature into a guy who's as good as Brian Campbell. With that being said, I don't really get why BIitz is ripping on his defensive game, IMO he plays very good defense for a 21 year old rookie dman, whose main strength is offense. He uses his speed very well in the defensive zone, I think he does a good job of winning puck battles, he's rarely beaten 1 on 1, he has an active stick, and in general his positioning is pretty solid for a rookie. Sure he makes mistakes and gets caught out of position, but so do all rookie dmen. He's also very calm and composed with the puck in his own zone, great at retrieving the puck and safely starting the breakout, which is a HUGE part of being an effective defensive dman (no point in recovering the puck if you can't break out properly).

He has a lot to work on, like any rookie dman, but I think he has top pairing upside, seems to me he's a guy who'll be an elite skater, very good puck mover, good in the offensive zone, and good in the defensive zone. Should be a terrific player by his mid 20s. Everyone loves all-around, smooth skating, 2-way dmen like Keith, Suter, Campbell, Boyle, etc., not saying he's going to be as good as these guys, but he'll play a similar style of game.
I'm not ripping his D game, I'm just shedding light on his flaws. I never hear Larsson talked about, but it's Gardiner this, Gardiner that. The guy is massively over rated at this point.

I wouldn't say his positioning is very good, he often chases a winger up the boards when they are cycling the puck, and I mean high up the boards (towards the blue line). Also, he is way ahead of the rush sometimes, and relies on forwards to cover him, which I understand happens, but I'd rather have Kule down low then Gardiner. I still vividly remember Phaneuf carrying the puck to their zone on the PK, and Gardiner jumping into the rush. Why would Gardiner jump into the rush on the PK?. I'm not talking about open ice 1 on 1's, the majority of defensemen win those the majority of the time. I'm talking about downlow. Behind the goalline, where it's crucial for a d to separate man from puck, Gardiner doesn't seem able to do that.

Safely starting a breakout? This guy is 50/50 at best behind the net. Sometimes he makes a great stretch pass or carries it out, other time he rings it around the boards to nobody, turns the puck over down low, or tries to skate it out and losses it in the neutral zone(and it's not just me who notices that) I don't care if you're a rookie, you don't turn the puck over in scoring area's. Also, he has Schenn open on the side boards, looks him off, and passes it to a winger with a man all over him. Schenn get's underrated here a lot. He actually ahs a solid first pass when he's on his game. I understand he's played poorly most of the season, but he makes the low risk play in the defensive zone, which Gardiner struggles to do.

I literally don't see the defensive game you rave about. Just watch today, specifically for him, how often he is out of position and relies on his speed to get back. I'm not saying if you have speed don't use that, but against a shifty player like Kane, he'd get exposed. He's an offense first guy, and like I said I can't see his D becoming that strong. Brian Campbell at best would be the comparison I make. He kind of reminds me of Kevin Bieksa the way he jumps into the play and makes mistakes. Also, the thing about the comparisons you make, they all are tough. I understand Gardiner is a kid, but he doesn't clear the net, and when there is a scrum he just stands there watching. His body use seems to be non existent too. Tell me when you ever see Suter skate away from a scrum. And before you turn this into a rookie thing, I can show you a video of Seguin pushing Schenn after the whistle last year. He lacks toughness in his game which I don't think will ever come

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02-07-2012, 03:54 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SeenSchenn2 View Post
Food for thought:

Duncan Keith didn't have a full-time job with the Hawks till the age of 23. What Gardiner is doing at 21 is pretty impressive.
Keith is a great defenseman, but even great defensemen make plenty of mistakes and get burnt often enough, and Keith is no different.

Leaf fans never seem to understand this little fact about defensemen.

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02-07-2012, 03:57 PM
  #118
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Keith is a great defenseman, but even great defensemen make plenty of mistakes and get burnt often enough, and Keith is no different.

Leaf fans never seem to understand this little fact about defensemen.
Well said.

Specifically in GDT's, when a d-man makes a bad play.. it's the end of the world with these folk and they're ready to drive them to the airport.

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02-07-2012, 04:02 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
As of right now how does Gardiner stand in the Calder race?

I'd say hes right up there as the #1 defenseman, now obviously no where near RNH but i was livid when i found out he wasnt participating in the Rookie portion of the allstar game. Rafael Diaz a -6 with 4 less minutes, less games and less points... COMON the league needs to be less obvious with marketing to get the habs fans to watch the game.
Diaz is also like 26, but there were already three Leafs there.

He might finish top-7 in Calder voting, but unless RNH is out, Henerique and Read grind to a halt and Larsson struggles I'd say he has no shot.

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02-07-2012, 04:19 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Fact on the position he has usually which is poor, fact that he gets beaten down low, fact that he doesn't come out of corners with the puck, fact that he plays 2 on 1's poorly.

opinion that he isn't very strong, opinion that his speed is the only thing he has going defensively.
He plays one 2 on 1 poorly and you act as if he does this consistently

Your hate on gardiner is honestly just sad and annoying. Especially when your points aren't even well made.

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02-07-2012, 04:22 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Pernicious View Post
Blitz loves trolling Gardiner, he has been doing it for months.
It's honestly just annoying now. Okay we get it you don't like gardiner or you don't think he is as good as everyone else does. Why do you waste your time trying to convince people instead of keeping it to yourself?

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02-07-2012, 04:22 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
He plays one 2 on 1 poorly and you act as if he does this consistently

Your hate on gardiner is honestly just sad and annoying. Especially when your points aren't even well made.
You pick one point and call all my points poor, solid.

What hate? Because I don't praise him for the smallest things? By that same way of thinking, everybodies hate on Schenn is sad and pathetic.

He plays one? I've seen him play 2 or 3. I rarely see him in a 2 on 1 situation though.

It's an opinion board, sorry I don't share yours.

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02-07-2012, 05:24 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
I'm not ripping his D game, I'm just shedding light on his flaws. I never hear Larsson talked about, but it's Gardiner this, Gardiner that. The guy is massively over rated at this point.

I wouldn't say his positioning is very good, he often chases a winger up the boards when they are cycling the puck, and I mean high up the boards (towards the blue line). Also, he is way ahead of the rush sometimes, and relies on forwards to cover him, which I understand happens, but I'd rather have Kule down low then Gardiner. I still vividly remember Phaneuf carrying the puck to their zone on the PK, and Gardiner jumping into the rush. Why would Gardiner jump into the rush on the PK?. I'm not talking about open ice 1 on 1's, the majority of defensemen win those the majority of the time. I'm talking about downlow. Behind the goalline, where it's crucial for a d to separate man from puck, Gardiner doesn't seem able to do that.

Safely starting a breakout? This guy is 50/50 at best behind the net. Sometimes he makes a great stretch pass or carries it out, other time he rings it around the boards to nobody, turns the puck over down low, or tries to skate it out and losses it in the neutral zone(and it's not just me who notices that) I don't care if you're a rookie, you don't turn the puck over in scoring area's. Also, he has Schenn open on the side boards, looks him off, and passes it to a winger with a man all over him. Schenn get's underrated here a lot. He actually ahs a solid first pass when he's on his game. I understand he's played poorly most of the season, but he makes the low risk play in the defensive zone, which Gardiner struggles to do.

I literally don't see the defensive game you rave about. Just watch today, specifically for him, how often he is out of position and relies on his speed to get back. I'm not saying if you have speed don't use that, but against a shifty player like Kane, he'd get exposed. He's an offense first guy, and like I said I can't see his D becoming that strong. Brian Campbell at best would be the comparison I make. He kind of reminds me of Kevin Bieksa the way he jumps into the play and makes mistakes. Also, the thing about the comparisons you make, they all are tough. I understand Gardiner is a kid, but he doesn't clear the net, and when there is a scrum he just stands there watching. His body use seems to be non existent too. Tell me when you ever see Suter skate away from a scrum. And before you turn this into a rookie thing, I can show you a video of Seguin pushing Schenn after the whistle last year. He lacks toughness in his game which I don't think will ever come
I wonder why a non-Leafs prospect isn't discussed on the Leafs board? I'm completely baffled myself...

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02-07-2012, 05:55 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
You pick one point and call all my points poor, solid.

What hate? Because I don't praise him for the smallest things? By that same way of thinking, everybodies hate on Schenn is sad and pathetic.

He plays one? I've seen him play 2 or 3. I rarely see him in a 2 on 1 situation though.

It's an opinion board, sorry I don't share yours.
Dude, your comments have been rather ridiculous....

Just an FYI, your lover boy Duncan Keith didn't even see the NHL until he was 22-23.

He was 25-26 before the first time he eclipsed 40 points and 26-27 for his breakout season.

Soooo, even his Gardiner is as ****** as you make him out to be, he has lots of time to develop into the stud everyone thinks he will be.

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02-07-2012, 05:56 PM
  #125
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Disclaimer: This is a fairly long post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Gardiner doesn't have the potential or talent defensively to play against the Sedins
And neither do ~95% of the other NHL defenseman in the league. There is a reason why the Sedins are perennial top 10 scorers in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
I'm not ripping his D game, I'm just shedding light on his flaws. I never hear Larsson talked about, but it's Gardiner this, Gardiner that. The guy is massively over rated at this point.

I wouldn't say his positioning is very good, he often chases a winger up the boards when they are cycling the puck, and I mean high up the boards (towards the blue line). Also, he is way ahead of the rush sometimes, and relies on forwards to cover him, which I understand happens, but I'd rather have Kule down low then Gardiner. I still vividly remember Phaneuf carrying the puck to their zone on the PK, and Gardiner jumping into the rush. Why would Gardiner jump into the rush on the PK?. I'm not talking about open ice 1 on 1's, the majority of defensemen win those the majority of the time. I'm talking about downlow. Behind the goalline, where it's crucial for a d to separate man from puck, Gardiner doesn't seem able to do that.

Safely starting a breakout? This guy is 50/50 at best behind the net. Sometimes he makes a great stretch pass or carries it out, other time he rings it around the boards to nobody, turns the puck over down low, or tries to skate it out and losses it in the neutral zone(and it's not just me who notices that) I don't care if you're a rookie, you don't turn the puck over in scoring area's. Also, he has Schenn open on the side boards, looks him off, and passes it to a winger with a man all over him. Schenn get's underrated here a lot. He actually has a solid first pass when he's on his game. I understand he's played poorly most of the season, but he makes the low risk play in the defensive zone, which Gardiner struggles to do.

I literally don't see the defensive game you rave about. Just watch today, specifically for him, how often he is out of position and relies on his speed to get back. I'm not saying if you have speed don't use that, but against a shifty player like Kane, he'd get exposed. He's an offense first guy, and like I said I can't see his D becoming that strong. Brian Campbell at best would be the comparison I make. He kind of reminds me of Kevin Bieksa the way he jumps into the play and makes mistakes. Also, the thing about the comparisons you make, they all are tough. I understand Gardiner is a kid, but he doesn't clear the net, and when there is a scrum he just stands there watching. His body use seems to be non existent too. Tell me when you ever see Suter skate away from a scrum. And before you turn this into a rookie thing, I can show you a video of Seguin pushing Schenn after the whistle last year. He lacks toughness in his game which I don't think will ever come
While yes, Gardiner does does have his defensive flaws, and some of the comparisons are pretty lofty considering he doesn't even have 50 NHL games to his name. But he's still very young and these kinds of things can be improved upon. It's not like this is the best Jake Gardiner will ever be (hopefully). He likely still has a long NHL career ahead of him, where he can improve his defensive game.

His positioning his OK. He is guilty of running around in his own zone, especially when the opposition has a long possession in the Leafs zone. This is partly his fault and partly the coaches fault. The Leafs, as a team, get running around in their own zone quite a bit, regardless of whether Gardiner is on the ice or not. With a better defensive system in place, I think Gardiner would be less prone to puck chasing. However as a rookie, I'd still expect him to run around, just less often.

He likes to jump in on the rush because he is a good skater and is offenisvely-minded. John-Michael Liles is the exact same way. I'm 100% OK with him jumping in on the rush, as long as he can get back into position without having a forward cover for him. I'll take your word for the PK mistake. However, I don't remember seeing it multiple times, so it's not like it's a chronic habit. If the coaching staff is doing it's job (), when he got back to the bench they told him never to do that again. He is still learning after all.

Yes, one of Gardiner's main weaknesses is that he is not strong. His lack of strength causes him to lose 1 on 1 battles for the puck down low. Strength is difficult to improve during the season, so this should be one of Gardiner's main focuses of improvement in the offseason. He's listed at 6'1 173lbs on mapleleafs.com, so he has not quite filled out yet and has a lot of room to improve in this regard. It will be interesting to see just how strong he is, come pre-season next year.

I do see what you see regarding the breakouts. Not quite 50/50 imo, but we're splitting hairs. Gardiner is very calm in his own end with the puck, and more often than not his skating can get himself out of trouble. However, I do think that he tries to skate too much. He is guilty of getting too cute with the puck and ends up losing it in his own end, or turning the puck over in the neutral zone. I'd prefer it if he took the safe play a little more often, which is either a high and hard off the glass just to get it out, or regrouping to his defense partner, Schenn.

Obviously, Gardiner has to adjust his game and how many risks he takes with his speed every shift depending who he's playing against. Obviously you can't take as many chances against Kane as you can against, oh I don't know, Jason Allison for example. (One if these players is faster than the other ) With experience though, he will get better at it and learn just how many risks he can take against which players.

Last point you brought up was his toughness. Not all players are tough. Tomas Kaberle was one of the softest players ever to wear a Leafs uniform in recent memory, but god damn could he run a powerplay. Not all players have to be tough if they can contribute in other ways, imo.

Your opinion is that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
He's an offense first guy, and like I said I can't see his D becoming that strong.
I disagree. Bottom line. He's 21 years old, he is going to mistakes. Almost every player does. Many of his errors, such as positioning, decision making, aggressiveness when joining the rush, and his tendency to get too cute instead of making the simple play are all mistakes that are fixable and learnable with more experience. All of those things are different in the NHL than they are in college, so he's obviously adjusting and learning every day. Gardiner could get away with most of his errors in college and will have to adjust and learn to minimize these errors in the NHL. IMO, his strength and his ability to win puck battles will be the most difficult thing for him to improve, and it will be interesting to see just how much his strength will improve over the off-season, if at all. Overall, Gardiner has surpassed the expectations of everybody (except you) and greatly over-achieved so far this year. Seeing how he progresses over the off season and into next year will give us much better insight of how good of a player Gardiner can be.

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