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All-Purpose Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread Part III

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Old
02-09-2012, 12:38 PM
  #226
Splitbtw
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With all that cap space, the Sharks should just get Semin and Doan. Just roll a 1a, 1b and 2a lines with whoever is left over for the 4th line.

Of course all it would take is picks and prospects because both players will demand a trade specifically to the Sharks for a Cup.


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02-09-2012, 12:41 PM
  #227
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HB,

I haven't been able to figure the numbers but it looked like White improved with Braun. I didn't watch closely enough on the numbers to see if that was the case. It may be a case of others holding up White's numbers.

Combine the PK #'s for White to get a better story. White is really bad on PK.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

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02-09-2012, 12:43 PM
  #228
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I put Stuarts numbers in there just because people are talking about him replacing Murray next season, for reference.

Gill is freaking awful, so absolutely not. That's the point i was making by listing him. Stay far, far, away.

All I am pointing out here is Murray is not doing terribly well in general. Better than the start of the season, but he's not even close to Vlasic/Burns/Boyle in talent.

Look at Vlasic for instance (who is seeing much higher qualcomp than Murray)

Vlasic:
Corsi: 8.93
Rel Corsi: 6.0
On ice +-/60 : 1
GA on ice /60: 1.69
+-: +17
Hits /game: .47
Blocks /game: 2.14
TKA /game: .16
GVA /game: .53

On an entirely different level from those guys.

I could list Boyle and Burns too, but trust me, it's not even close. Burns for instance has double digit corsi and rel corsi numbers, and his defensive numbers are better than Murray's by quite a bit.

Basically the Sharks defense (defensively) looks like this imo:

Vlasic
Burns
Boyle


Murray
Braun

Vandermeer
White

And White's stats say he's a lot better than he is by eye.

What Murray IS doing is hitting and blocking shots, a lot Is he worth keeping around for $2.5m for hitting and blocking? Depends on what's available. His defense is mediocre though, and his mobility is abysmal.

Are we better off with excellent forward depth and no Murray or Murray and a 3rd line plug if it comes down to it? That's the question that I'm trying to answer, but it's a tough call.
I'm perfectly capable of reading stat lines and I never even tried to imply that Murray is on the same level as Vlasic, Boyle or Burns. I simply said he's a top 4 d-man, if you want me to be specific, he's the #4 d-man on this team.

I have no problem with White playing on the 3rd pairing, I'm not one of the people talking about waiving him. But it showed last night that he shouldn't be playing against top lines.

I have no idea what you mean with excellent forward depth & no Murray - are you saying if the Sharks trade Murray they can get multiple fowards? Or are you assuming including Murray in a trade will get them a better forward?

Either way, the team doesn't have to trade any of their top 6 fowards or top 4 d-men (or any d-men) to get what they need in my opinion.

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02-09-2012, 12:46 PM
  #229
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Also to answer your question, who would be comparable Murray replacements that might be relatively cheap?

Sutton
Smid
Garrison
O'Bryne
etc

And that's just guys that hit/block a lot and have affordable contracts and/or UFA.

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02-09-2012, 12:51 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I'm perfectly capable of reading stat lines and I never even tried to imply that Murray is on the same level as Vlasic, Boyle or Burns. I simply said he's a top 4 d-man, if you want me to be specific, he's the #4 d-man on this team.

I have no problem with White playing on the 3rd pairing, I'm not one of the people talking about waiving him. But it showed last night that he shouldn't be playing against top lines.

I have no idea what you mean with excellent forward depth & no Murray - are you saying if the Sharks trade Murray they can get multiple fowards? Or are you assuming including Murray in a trade will get them a better forward?

Either way, the team doesn't have to trade any of their top 6 fowards or top 4 d-men (or any d-men) to get what they need in my opinion.
First off, I am not sure why you are getting agitated here, I'm simply answering the questions you asked, not being antagonistic.

What I was saying is, IF it DOES require Murray to get a quality (ie, not 3rd rate) forward, is it worth it? If there is no deal to be made that gets us a forward better than say Moen without moving Murray, are we better off with Moen + Murray, or no Murray (and a rental to replace him) and say, Purcell/Downie/Bailey/etc. Murray is likely overvalued, and I wouldn't be surprised if he and a pick could get us 2 quality forwards for instance. If that is the case (IF) then does it make sense?

If we can get the forwards we need without moving Murray, great, but at this point I don't know if thats possible. If you entertain the premise that it's not, I'm saying Murray is pretty easily (and cheaply) replaceable and is likely overvalued for what he actually brings.

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02-09-2012, 01:19 PM
  #231
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Yes, because that's how stats work...you don't bother taking into account the quality of the comp their facing, zone starts, the fact Vandy isn't an every day player or that he's played some games at forward, or you know, actually watching them play.

I really don't care that Murray is a one dimensional player and what new rules would you be reffering to?

Murray is still a top 4 dman, the defense would be worse if you remove him from the line up gave more ice time against better players to Demers, Vandermeer or White.
The new rules I'm referring to are the head/body contact rules that have had a big affect on Murray's willingness to make big open ice hits this year like he did in year's past. He's having to play a much more controlled game.

Anyway, like you said in a later post, Murray is the number 4 dman on this team, one that hasn't had a strong D in the past few years. He became #4 by attrition. And then you compare him to Demers, Vandemeer and White, who are, at best, #6 NHL dmen right now. Murray is a 5-6 in this league at best and it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't even in the league a few years from now. His value is massively overinflated by fans due to his crowd pleasing hits, not his talent.

And, on this team, I would much rather see Justin Braun on the ice as our #4 than Murray, but that's just me.

Sad reality is, I don't think you would get all that much for Doug Murray right now, so I think it's kinda a moot argument.

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02-09-2012, 01:26 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
The new rules I'm referring to are the head/body contact rules that have had a big affect on Murray's willingness to make big open ice hits this year like he did in year's past. He's having to play a much more controlled game.

Anyway, like you said in a later post, Murray is the number 4 dman on this team, one that hasn't had a strong D in the past few years. He became #4 by attrition. And then you compare him to Demers, Vandemeer and White, who are, at best, #6 NHL dmen right now. Murray is a 5-6 in this league at best and it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't even in the league a few years from now. His value is massively overinflated by fans due to his crowd pleasing hits, not his talent.

And, on this team, I would much rather see Justin Braun on the ice as our #4 than Murray, but that's just me.

Sad reality is, I don't think you would get all that much for Doug Murray right now, so I think it's kinda a moot argument.
I think Demers WAS better than Murray last season (and thus can be again, not sure whats going on with him) and yes, given his total game, Braun is also superior to Murray. Murray has a slight edge on him defensively, but Braun's offensive skills put him over the top.

So in the hierarchy of long term value, I put Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Demers, and Braun all ahead of Murray.

As for value, as you said, his value is overinflated. I don't think other GM's are quite aware of this yet, but I think they will be within a season. I think some team would hugely overpay for him still.

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:28 PM
  #233
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I agree with HB in that our D rankings are:

Vlasic
Burns
Boyle

Murray
Braun

Vandy
Demers
White

I'm a proponent of Stuart (despite any possible issues when he was a Shark) because he's an upgrade on Murray. This lineup next season would be an upgrade, IMO:

Vlasic
Burns
Boyle
Stuart

Braun
Demers
Vandy
(Petrecki?)

So even if Murray has little trade value, he'll have even less trade value during the offseason or this time next year when he's a pending UFA.

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:34 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Also to answer your question, who would be comparable Murray replacements that might be relatively cheap?

Sutton
Smid
Garrison
O'Bryne
etc

And that's just guys that hit/block a lot and have affordable contracts and/or UFA.
Hockeyball, I get what you are saying but do you think that maybe you are undervaluing Murray slightly? He's a had a rough start to the season (so has White, Boyle and Demers) but that can change. He's no doubt gonna turn it around before the playoffs and his hitting and shot blocking are more important than indicated by stats. His blocks tend to be huge ones on really good chances.

Most importantly, He is great in the playoffs and that's what it's all about anyway.

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:38 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hockeyball, I get what you are saying but do you think that maybe you are undervaluing Murray slightly? He's a had a rough start to the season (so has White, Boyle and Demers) but that can change. He's no doubt gonna turn it around before the playoffs and his hitting and shot blocking are more important than indicated by stats. His blocks tend to be huge ones on really good chances.

Most importantly, He is great in the playoffs and that's what it's all about anyway.
But what I'm asking is, is 'that' good enough? If it means our forward core only improves to the Moen level, is that team really going to beat Boston/Nucks/Chicago/etc

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02-09-2012, 01:50 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hockeyball, I get what you are saying but do you think that maybe you are undervaluing Murray slightly? He's a had a rough start to the season (so has White, Boyle and Demers) but that can change. He's no doubt gonna turn it around before the playoffs and his hitting and shot blocking are more important than indicated by stats. His blocks tend to be huge ones on really good chances.

Most importantly, He is great in the playoffs and that's what it's all about anyway.
Just to level set here. We're talking about a guy who was drafted in the 8th round, who's scored a total of 6 goals in his 7 years in the league, has never sniffed the top pairing, is useless on the power play, doesn't skate particularly well, and, while a decent defensive defenseman, isn't a true shut down guy that you can send out against an opponent's top line, ala Mike Rathje. His strength is his physical play and he doesn't make many mistakes in our zone. He's a 5-6, probably would fetch a 3rd line forward in trade. I don't think he's going anywhere.

IMO, the only potential big name that even has a chance of going is Clowe, because of his value. This trade deadline is going to be a dud.

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02-09-2012, 01:52 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hockeyball, I get what you are saying but do you think that maybe you are undervaluing Murray slightly? He's a had a rough start to the season (so has White, Boyle and Demers) but that can change. He's no doubt gonna turn it around before the playoffs and his hitting and shot blocking are more important than indicated by stats. His blocks tend to be huge ones on really good chances.

Most importantly, He is great in the playoffs and that's what it's all about anyway.
He had 0 goals and 1 assist in 18 games and was a -7 in the playoffs last season. That's great?

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:58 PM
  #238
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Why stop at Malkin? Clearly, Crosby should be a buy-low bargain.
For the greatest hockey player ever to step onto NHL ice Torrey Mitchell? Surely you jest.

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Old
02-09-2012, 02:13 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Just to level set here. We're talking about a guy who was drafted in the 8th round, who's scored a total of 6 goals in his 7 years in the league, has never sniffed the top pairing, is useless on the power play, doesn't skate particularly well, and, while a decent defensive defenseman, isn't a true shut down guy that you can send out against an opponent's top line, ala Mike Rathje. His strength is his physical play and he doesn't make many mistakes in our zone. He's a 5-6, probably would fetch a 3rd line forward in trade. I don't think he's going anywhere.

IMO, the only potential big name that even has a chance of going is Clowe, because of his value. This trade deadline is going to be a dud.
He faced the 2nd highest QoC last year and the year before.

Not all d-men are on a team to put up points or play on the power play. He's a top 4 shutdown d-man on a team that has a top 5 team defense. They've been top 10 in team D that past couple of years as well.

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02-09-2012, 02:40 PM
  #240
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Murray is a little overvalued. However, don't forget that before Boyle ever came to this team, Murray was probably the best defenseman at getting the puck out of the zone. He can protect and move the puck decently.

The way Justin Braun is playing, however, Demers and Murray need to be very afraid....

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Old
02-09-2012, 02:43 PM
  #241
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I've been impressed by Braun, hope he continues to improve.

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Old
02-09-2012, 02:49 PM
  #242
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We are trading out entire team with the Kings team, on Friday we will be cheering for Doughty and Kopitar.
Except we're holding onto Torrey Mitchell for his offensive potential.

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02-09-2012, 02:50 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
He's a 5-6, probably would fetch a 3rd line forward in trade. I don't think he's going anywhere.

IMO, the only potential big name that even has a chance of going is Clowe, because of his value. This trade deadline is going to be a dud.
DW called the idea of moving Clowe "idiotic" so for once I'm going to take his word on that. I think he's off the table.

That said, I disagree and think Murray has significant value. Many GM's will see him as a top-4 or even top pairing guy (which I think is a bit of an illusion) but someone will value his physical play and defensive game far beyond his worth, GM's do that all the time.

Let's just say I'm right, and can be moved along with a pick for a 1st rate, or 2 2nd rate tweeners, would you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
He faced the 2nd highest QoC last year and the year before.

Not all d-men are on a team to put up points or play on the power play. He's a top 4 shutdown d-man on a team that has a top 5 team defense. They've been top 10 in team D that past couple of years as well.
He ALMOST is, but he isn't. His mobility and stickwork leave a lot to be desired. He is regularly taken advantage of by mobile forwards (and is sheltered from them as well when possible). Take a look at how badly Duchene abused him. Murray started the game against Duchene, was repeatedly spun around like a balarenia eventually leading to a goal against. Immediately after Tmac put Vlasic out against Duchene and Vlasic completely shut him down.

Vlasic is a shut down defensemen, Murray is hard hitting defensive defensemen. Murray is most useful against physical forwards, clearing the crease, and blocking shots. I love the guy, he's a total warrior, but you can't get all sentimental about players and still be successful. He's got a year left on this contract, I literally can't come up with a scenario where he is retained after that.

If he's got the value I think he does, and no other deal can be worked out, he's our most moveable roster player with value.

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02-09-2012, 02:54 PM
  #244
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Except we're holding onto Torrey Mitchell for his offensive potential.
Kind of crazy how 2 goals create inflated perceptions of his offensive prowess.

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02-09-2012, 02:55 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
DW called the idea of moving Clowe "idiotic" so for once I'm going to take his word on that. I think he's off the table.

That said, I disagree and think Murray has significant value. Many GM's will see him as a top-4 or even top pairing guy (which I think is a bit of an illusion) but someone will value his physical play and defensive game far beyond his worth, GM's do that all the time.

Let's just say I'm right, and can be moved along with a pick for a 1st rate, or 2 2nd rate tweeners, would you do it?
.
I would move Murray in a heartbeat if we could get a true second line forward for him. New York minute.

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02-09-2012, 02:58 PM
  #246
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He faced the 2nd highest QoC last year and the year before.

Not all d-men are on a team to put up points or play on the power play. He's a top 4 shutdown d-man on a team that has a top 5 team defense. They've been top 10 in team D that past couple of years as well.
Use of the words 'shutdown' and Murray in the same sentence is wishful thinking.

I like the guy for entertainment value; hilarious to see guys run at him only to just bounce off like they hit a pole. But this idea that he's a really good player that the Sharks couldn't live without is just laughable. He's a bottom end defender that we would barely miss.

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02-09-2012, 02:59 PM
  #247
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Kind of crazy how 2 goals create inflated perceptions of his offensive prowess.
I know, its silly. The breakaway goal he deserves full marks for, the guy might as well have been using a meat hook on Mitchell the way he was abusing him. The deking one past the Canucks was cute, but I swear there was absolutely zero effort made by any of those defenders to stop him. They just all stood there and kind of poked their sticks in his direction hehe.

Remeber Bernier's spin-o-rama goal? We weep for missed potential hehe

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02-09-2012, 03:08 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
DW called the idea of moving Clowe "idiotic" so for once I'm going to take his word on that. I think he's off the table.

That said, I disagree and think Murray has significant value. Many GM's will see him as a top-4 or even top pairing guy (which I think is a bit of an illusion) but someone will value his physical play and defensive game far beyond his worth, GM's do that all the time.

Let's just say I'm right, and can be moved along with a pick for a 1st rate, or 2 2nd rate tweeners, would you do it?



He ALMOST is, but he isn't. His mobility and stickwork leave a lot to be desired. He is regularly taken advantage of by mobile forwards (and is sheltered from them as well when possible). Take a look at how badly Duchene abused him. Murray started the game against Duchene, was repeatedly spun around like a balarenia eventually leading to a goal against. Immediately after Tmac put Vlasic out against Duchene and Vlasic completely shut him down.

Vlasic is a shut down defensemen, Murray is hard hitting defensive defensemen. Murray is most useful against physical forwards, clearing the crease, and blocking shots. I love the guy, he's a total warrior, but you can't get all sentimental about players and still be successful. He's got a year left on this contract, I literally can't come up with a scenario where he is retained after that.

If he's got the value I think he does, and no other deal can be worked out, he's our most moveable roster player with value.
I'm not being all sentimental about him and I'm not saying he's the best defensive d-man on the team - he is the #4 d-man on this team and has been a top 4 d-man for a few years. Just because he isn't able to shutdown every forward in the league doesn't mean that he's not a shutdown d-man.

I also couldn't care less about much of anything past this season or whether or not he'll be around after his contract expires or if his value will drop in the offseason. We're talking about this season.

Quote:
Let's just say I'm right, and can be moved along with a pick for a 1st rate, or 2 2nd rate tweeners, would you do it?
It entirely depends on who those players are...who is a 1st rate tweener?

You have your opinions on what would be best for the team and I have mine. I don't think trading Murray (or Braun or Demers) for a player like Downie or Bailey (I'm not even sure either are much of an upgrade over what the Sharks already have) and then trading for (your replacements) Allen or O'Byrne (as I seriously doubt Smid or Garrison are available), are going to make the team any more capable of beating Vancouver, Chicago, etc.

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02-09-2012, 03:31 PM
  #249
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I'm not being all sentimental about him and I'm not saying he's the best defensive d-man on the team - he is the #4 d-man on this team and has been a top 4 d-man for a few years. Just because he isn't able to shutdown every forward in the league doesn't mean that he's not a shutdown d-man.

I also couldn't care less about much of anything past this season or whether or not he'll be around after his contract expires or if his value will drop in the offseason. We're talking about this season.



It entirely depends on who those players are...who is a 1st rate tweener?

You have your opinions on what would be best for the team and I have mine. I don't think trading Murray (or Braun or Demers) for a player like Downie or Bailey (I'm not even sure either are much of an upgrade over what the Sharks already have) and then trading for (your replacements) Allen or O'Byrne (as I seriously doubt Smid or Garrison are available), are going to make the team any more capable of beating Vancouver, Chicago, etc.
There are 5 defensemen I think are better players than Murray on the team, and 4 who are playing better than him right now. Even defensively he's only the 4th best. He's really not a #4 on this team anymore.

There are more options, I just listed a few. I think a better skating physical d-man who can put up defensive numbers in the range Murray is who is a rental would cost us a late 2nd or a mediocre prospect + 4th. I don't think it would have a significant effect on our defense one way or the other, the mobility might even help a bit.

Even if you don't like Downie or Bailey (who i consider 2nd rate) they are long term, non rental, solutions. I'd be pissed if we gave up Murray for a rental for instance, even if it was a 1st rate rental (Doan for instance). But if Murray (packaged with a pick/prospect) can get us a high end tweener like Clutterbuck/Glencross (I doubt either of those two, but that kind of player) or two 2nd tier guys that still have upside (Bailey/Downie/Purcell/etc) I think that makes us significantly better.

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02-09-2012, 03:51 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Murray is a little overvalued. However, don't forget that before Boyle ever came to this team, Murray was probably the best defenseman at getting the puck out of the zone. He can protect and move the puck decently.

The way Justin Braun is playing, however, Demers and Murray need to be very afraid....
You're overvaluing his puck skills if you think his decent puck skills means that he is the best d-man at moving the puck out of the zone. Murray is not the best at that. Danny Boyle is actually the best at that.

Justin Braun's playing has no bearing on either Murray or Demers especially not now. In the off-season, sure someone could be moved but moving Demers would be a monumental mistake even with how Braun is playing. When you have that kind of youth and talent on D, you find a way to make them both work.

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