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All-Purpose Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread Part III

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:14 PM
  #251
ChompChomp
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I don't know about all of you, but the injuries to this team (Especially Havlat, who although only scoring one goal in his time, still provided speed, depth, and playmaking ability) are making me hurt for a trade big time, much more so than years past. Not saying I want a trade for trade's sake, but wait until the Sharks make the needed moves to shore up this team is agonizing.

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:21 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You're overvaluing his puck skills if you think his decent puck skills means that he is the best d-man at moving the puck out of the zone. Murray is not the best at that. Danny Boyle is actually the best at that.

Justin Braun's playing has no bearing on either Murray or Demers especially not now. In the off-season, sure someone could be moved but moving Demers would be a monumental mistake even with how Braun is playing. When you have that kind of youth and talent on D, you find a way to make them both work.
That is why I said before Dan Boyle came to this team. Back when Rivet was our scoring leader, Vlasic thought the puck was a grenade, and Ehrhoff and Carle were feeling charitable with the puck.

No, I don't think it has bearing now (don't think I said it did) because one wants to depth for the playoffs. But if a trade for a marquee player came up, I would be worried if I were Demers.

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:33 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
That is why I said before Dan Boyle came to this team. Back when Rivet was our scoring leader, Vlasic thought the puck was a grenade, and Ehrhoff and Carle were feeling charitable with the puck.

No, I don't think it has bearing now (don't think I said it did) because one wants to depth for the playoffs. But if a trade for a marquee player came up, I would be worried if I were Demers.
So you're going to sit there and say that before Boyle arrived, Murray was the best at it when he had one full season of play and two seasons where he didn't even play in half the games? Sorry, not buying it. That is overselling his abilities. He was a third pairing d-man and even if he looked better than Ehrhoff, Carle, Rivet, McLaren, and Vlasic, he was still facing 3rd pairing competition which is no real showing of abilities of any kind to make the claim of best on the team.

If a trade for a marquee player came up and either Braun, Demers, or Murray were asked for, they'd all be in there. Braun is not playing so well that he wouldn't be dealt in a heartbeat for ANY marquee player.

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:40 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
So you're going to sit there and say that before Boyle arrived, Murray was the best at it when he had one full season of play and two seasons where he didn't even play in half the games? Sorry, not buying it. That is overselling his abilities. He was a third pairing d-man and even if he looked better than Ehrhoff, Carle, Rivet, McLaren, and Vlasic, he was still facing 3rd pairing competition which is no real showing of abilities of any kind to make the claim of best on the team.

If a trade for a marquee player came up and either Braun, Demers, or Murray were asked for, they'd all be in there. Braun is not playing so well that he wouldn't be dealt in a heartbeat for ANY marquee player.
Not that we can afford a Marquee player (non-rental).

And if any of those guys are traded for a rental, I'm going to be pissed.

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:45 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If a trade for a marquee player came up and either Braun, Demers, or Murray were asked for, they'd all be in there. Braun is not playing so well that he wouldn't be dealt in a heartbeat for ANY marquee player.
Especially with our organizational defensive depth. I see Demers/ Braun as young 5/6 defensemen with top 4 potential. I wouldn't have any problem trading either of them straight up for a young 3rd line player with potential to be a top 6.

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:47 PM
  #256
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I'd also just like to (random topic but trade related) point out something that bugs me on hfboards. Fans seem to think that just because opposing fans under/overvalue players based on fan reputation/numbers that other teams will as well or that just because we know some of the little things that certain players do and opposing fans don't that those players aren't valued highly amongst the other nhl teams. Those GMs can watch every single game every one of our players has ever played, and see everything we see. They have scouts telling them everything about any player they're interested in.

Just ranting, but I just get tired of hearing that. Anything we get for Demers/Braun/Murray will likely be fair value, as anything that we know about, they know about.

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Old
02-09-2012, 04:58 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
I'd also just like to (random topic but trade related) point out something that bugs me on hfboards. Fans seem to think that just because opposing fans under/overvalue players based on fan reputation/numbers that other teams will as well or that just because we know some of the little things that certain players do and opposing fans don't that those players aren't valued highly amongst the other nhl teams. Those GMs can watch every single game every one of our players has ever played, and see everything we see. They have scouts telling them everything about any player they're interested in.

Just ranting, but I just get tired of hearing that. Anything we get for Demers/Braun/Murray will likely be fair value, as anything that we know about, they know about.
GM's make poor value deals ALL the time. Phaneuf to Toronto, Eric Johnson to Colorado. Hell Thornton to San Jose, Boyle to San Jose. These are all instanced of very poor valuation of players by the trading GM's.

I would in fact say that the 'fair deal' is slightly less common. The Minnesota deals this off season we made would be a good example (though Fletcher may have ended up over-rating Seto in fact).

So the evidence would point to your statement being incorrect. We have access to most of the same information a trading GM would, and we've likely watched that player play far more games than even their scouts have. Not to say we are as good a judge of talent or value, but to say opposing GM's are somehow incapable of making major mistakes is patently false.

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Old
02-09-2012, 05:09 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
GM's make poor value deals ALL the time. Phaneuf to Toronto, Eric Johnson to Colorado. Hell Thornton to San Jose, Boyle to San Jose. These are all instanced of very poor valuation of players by the trading GM's.

I would in fact say that the 'fair deal' is slightly less common. The Minnesota deals this off season we made would be a good example (though Fletcher may have ended up over-rating Seto in fact).

So the evidence would point to your statement being incorrect. We have access to most of the same information a trading GM would, and we've likely watched that player play far more games than even their scouts have. Not to say we are as good a judge of talent or value, but to say opposing GM's are somehow incapable of making major mistakes is patently false.
My point wasn't that unfair deals never happen, just that certain players being young/inexperienced for your team (take Demers for example) doesn't mean that we, as fans, have knowledge that other teams' GMs don't have. Jason Demers has exactly the value around the league that we see he has. Other teams realize he's got potential to be a Dan Boyle-lite type of player.

Whether a particular GM is stupid enough to make an ill advised move has noting to do with my point. There will always be GMs that just falt out can't evaluate talent. I'm just getting tired of the "We shouldn't trade him because we won't get good enough value" argument, based on the fact that they think they know something the other team doesn't.

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Old
02-09-2012, 05:23 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
My point wasn't that unfair deals never happen, just that certain players being young/inexperienced for your team (take Demers for example) doesn't mean that we, as fans, have knowledge that other teams' GMs don't have. Jason Demers has exactly the value around the league that we see he has. Other teams realize he's got potential to be a Dan Boyle-lite type of player.

Whether a particular GM is stupid enough to make an ill advised move has noting to do with my point. There will always be GMs that just falt out can't evaluate talent. I'm just getting tired of the "We shouldn't trade him because we won't get good enough value" argument, based on the fact that they think they know something the other team doesn't.
I think it's less about 'value' in a trade sense and more about actual value. Every GM in the league would love Couture on their team, and would give up significant assets to acquire him (fair deal), but the Sharks will still not be getting value because of the nature of trading. We don't have a need as great as the hole Couture would create, so any trade, fair or not, would be a net loss (especially when you consider contract, loyalty, etc).

In Demers and Brauns case the argument is similar. They are young, cheap, effective D-men who will likely only increase in value. Trading them now is taking a large risk that the players traded for will increase in value at the same rate and fill as big a need for the team long term.

I think Demers and Braun are MUCH more tradeable than Couture (just to be clear) but I am just explaining why Murray is in fact a much better option. His hole is easier to fill (defensive defensemen are cheaper), and he has no long term future with the team anyway.

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Old
02-09-2012, 06:23 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I think it's less about 'value' in a trade sense and more about actual value. Every GM in the league would love Couture on their team, and would give up significant assets to acquire him (fair deal), but the Sharks will still not be getting value because of the nature of trading. We don't have a need as great as the hole Couture would create, so any trade, fair or not, would be a net loss (especially when you consider contract, loyalty, etc).

In Demers and Brauns case the argument is similar. They are young, cheap, effective D-men who will likely only increase in value. Trading them now is taking a large risk that the players traded for will increase in value at the same rate and fill as big a need for the team long term.

I think Demers and Braun are MUCH more tradeable than Couture (just to be clear) but I am just explaining why Murray is in fact a much better option. His hole is easier to fill (defensive defensemen are cheaper), and he has no long term future with the team anyway.
I have no problem trading Murray, especially if we can replace him with Stuart next season. I just think that a 31 year old, pretty good defensive player with no offensive potential will not get us that much. He's entertaining as hell, but he's just not THAT good. If someone wants to overvalue him and give us something good for him then, amazing. Do it right away. Problem is, the best I think we can get for him is a similar one dimensional player, a 30ish solid 3rd liner, or an overpaid good player. He could definitely add value in a package though.

Other teams realize that big, slow, offensively challenged defensemen are easier to acquire as well.

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Old
02-09-2012, 07:59 PM
  #261
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According to LeBrun, the Sharks are interested in Ray Whitney (even though he's not avail., yet) - I'd be thrilled to get him back on this team.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ting-to-emerge

Also, the Canes are going to try to re-sign Ruutu so it's pretty likely he's off the market as well, though I guess maybe they won't be able to come to terms in the next 2 1/2 weeks.

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Old
02-09-2012, 08:05 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
According to LeBrun, the Sharks are interested in Ray Whitney (even though he's not avail., yet) - I'd be thrilled to get him back on this team.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ting-to-emerge

Also, the Canes are going to try to re-sign Ruutu so it's pretty likely he's off the market as well, though I guess maybe they won't be able to come to terms in the next 2 1/2 weeks.
I think that the Ruutu thing is mostly a bluff to drive up the price.

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Old
02-09-2012, 08:08 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by TehJuxtaposer View Post
I think that the Ruutu thing is mostly a bluff to drive up the price.
Maybe...but their GM did the same thing w/ Gleason and got him signed. Ruutu has said he wants to stay in Carolina so I'd be surprised if that's what they're doing.

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Old
02-09-2012, 08:11 PM
  #264
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I'd love whitney back on the team but do we need another puck possession playmaker? Where would he fit besides the 2nd line PP?

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02-09-2012, 08:15 PM
  #265
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RE: Ray Whitney

Don't want to get ahead of myself, but can you imagine the story of one of the first players in Sharks franchise history coming back and winning a Cup with the team after being separated for 15 years?

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02-09-2012, 08:15 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Sharkway Drive View Post
I'd love whitney back on the team but do we need another puck possession playmaker? Where would he fit besides the 2nd line PP?
Wizard is still elusive and can score himself.

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Old
02-09-2012, 08:18 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
According to LeBrun, the Sharks are interested in Ray Whitney (even though he's not avail., yet) - I'd be thrilled to get him back on this team.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ting-to-emerge

Also, the Canes are going to try to re-sign Ruutu so it's pretty likely he's off the market as well, though I guess maybe they won't be able to come to terms in the next 2 1/2 weeks.
In a previous published rumor, Ruutu's asking price on a next contract appeared a little rich for the Cane's blood. I am sure Rutherford will try to sign him but I doubt it happens before the deadline.

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Old
02-09-2012, 08:25 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Chef View Post
RE: Ray Whitney

Don't want to get ahead of myself, but can you imagine the story of one of the first players in Sharks franchise history coming back and winning a Cup with the team after being separated for 15 years?



(In seriousness, I'd love to get Whitney back. Man would that be a great story.)

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Old
02-09-2012, 09:55 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Sharkway Drive View Post
I'd love whitney back on the team but do we need another puck possession playmaker? Where would he fit besides the 2nd line PP?
On the left side with the Joes - serves as both a playmaker and finisher. This allows Marleau & Havlat to move down to improve the biggest flaws with the other two lines: 2nd: speed, 3rd: puck handling.

Whitney - Thornton - Pavelski
Marleau - Couture - Clowe
McGinn - Handzus - Havlat
Mitchell - Desjardins - Winchester

That's mint right there.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:00 PM
  #270
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We just need to find another Joe Centerman for the top line

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:04 PM
  #271
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I'd love to have Whitney for the symbolic purpose of the last player from the inaugural Sharks retiring as a Shark, but I don't want to trade our future for a player so old.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:30 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Sharkway Drive View Post
I'd love whitney back on the team but do we need another puck possession playmaker? Where would he fit besides the 2nd line PP?
He'll do the job that Havlat's supposed to be doing.

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Old
02-09-2012, 10:32 PM
  #273
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Ray Whitney?


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Old
02-09-2012, 10:37 PM
  #274
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I'd love to have Whitney for the symbolic purpose of the last player from the inaugural Sharks retiring as a Shark, but I don't want to trade our future for a player so old.
That storyline has Cup written all over it. Plus, it might help when it comes down to waiving his NTC. Maybe if all the cards fall right, he'll convince Doan to come with him for a run at it.

One can dream.

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Old
02-09-2012, 11:01 PM
  #275
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Phoenix is in the thick of the playoff hunt. Would they unload Whitney due to $$? He's an expiring contract.

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