IIHF World ChampionshipDiscuss International Tournaments like the WJC, Olympics, and World Cup, as they take place, or discuss past tournaments. performances.
For years the percentage of European NHL players hovered around 30%. Then it started to drop to the point where, in recent years, the NHL was starting to look like the "North American Hockey League".
Example 1: Last year, on any given night, almost 76% of the players were either American (22.2%) or Canadian (53.7%).
Example 2: In the 2010 Entry Draft, there were only 5 European players in the entire first round.
Then:
- The number of European players playing in the NHL, on any given night, increased for a 2nd straight year;
- 2 European teams played for Gold at the 2012 World Juniors - first time in 11 years;
- European teams won the last 2 WJR's;
- Based on Bob MacKenzie's Top 40 Draft Prospects there are more Europeans then there has been in years (18 Canadians, 6 Americans, 16 Europeans) going early in the draft;
- The Top 2 players will be Russian.
The question is: Is European Hockey making a come back?
Going in waves. Swedish hockey has made a big comeback, Russian hockey is looking good, Finland has good age groups on the way. Czechs and Slovaks have some players coming up but not the brightest of times.
But it has to be noted that some of the older talent from certain countries now play in the KHL(bigger team role, good paycheck, can play the World Champs every year). Czech Republic has 33 KHL players, Finland has 31. Sweden only 17. Not all of them are NHL material for whatever reason(many of them have multiple NHL seasons played), but on a skill basis they are very good players.
So you kinda have to look a bit past the % of NHL players from Europe. The draft is a decent measuring stick, I guess.
Going in waves. Swedish hockey has made a big comeback, Russian hockey is looking good, Finland has good age groups on the way. Czechs and Slovaks have some players coming up but not the brightest of times.
But it has to be noted that some of the older talent from certain countries now play in the KHL(bigger team role, good paycheck, can play the World Champs every year). Czech Republic has 33 KHL players, Finland has 31. Sweden only 17. Not all of them are NHL material for whatever reason(many of them have multiple NHL seasons played), but on a skill basis they are very good players.
So you kinda have to look a bit past the % of NHL players from Europe. The draft is a decent measuring stick, I guess.
I second this. Also, I think the top end talent is a pretty good measuring stick as well, because the very best players do end up in the NHL. Out of top 20 scorers atm 8 seem to be euros. I think that's about the ratio it's been for a long time. Just a hunch though...
There are a lot of players in KHL that would previously play (or at least try their luck) in the NHL. Sure there might not be as many people who could really contribute to NHL as a whole but there are a number of guys who could fill 3rd-4th lines or play in AHL and be promoted from time time thus making the number of Europeans higher.
High salaries and good conditions in KHL prevent many players who are still young but know they probably aren't NHL 1st-2nd line material to go there. They might want to play in the NHl but they don't want to spend a season on two on AHL paycheck....
I wouldnt call it a comeback. Theres a clear improvement in European hockey. The 'comeback' probably can be attributed only to the Russians, they did bad during the 90s and now are steadily improving.
Sweden, Finland still where they always were, 2006 Olympics, WC now and then, with Sweden being top 3 more often and Finland that 4th/5th place they like so much.
Overall not a comeback, but minor to major improvement, except 1-2 countries.
Switzerland - major improvement over last 5 years. We use to call it big 7, in 3-7 years we'll have a big 8.
Germany- slow, steady improvement will challenge countries like Belarus, Latvia in rankings.
Latvia - good improvement junior and senior level, will start having that 1st round star every now and then which will help them a lot. Having a team in KHL/MHL helps them big time.
Sweden/Russia - about same level of improvement last 5-7 years, only difference Sweden is more scouted, with introduction of KHL/MHL + NHL disagreements Russia is less scouted therefore an overall impression Sweden is doing better.
Finland- improvement is only recent, 2-3 years, will crack that top 3 more often.
The only countries i see doing worse than they used to are Belarus/ Czech Republic
You would expect Belarus to improve with team in KHL/MHL, especially at junior level, maybe its just a period of stagnation, a period of 3-4 years they disappear, then come back and beat Sweden again , but dont know whats holding them down. ( they probably lost some national team members in that plane crash in Russia- which is going to make it worse)
Czech Republic - oh yes, them, they never learn.... i predict in 10 year half Olympic team will be AHL we all know their story, now some which is my personal opinion - the reason why they still do OK at WC, will hang in there at Olympics is: KHL, at this stage they probably have more players in KHL than NHL. Yes if not playing in KHL some of them would find themselves on 3rd/4th lines in NHL but mostly will be in AHL...and thats worse....
5th in IIHF rankings, looks good, thanks to KHL, if not would be 7th/8th.
Dares, How is our Senior team improving exactly when last year we almost were relegated?
Our youth hockey indeed is improving though it has nothing to with having a KHL team. Current crop of youngsters can be attributed to 1997-2004 hockey boom, when (relative) success at WC and some extra arenas being built allowed more youngsters to try their luck at becoming hockey players. Maybe some Dinamo inspired youngsters will come through in 6-7 years, who knows, until then let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Sweden/Russia - about same level of improvement last 5-7 years, only difference Sweden is more scouted, with introduction of KHL/MHL + NHL disagreements Russia is less scouted therefore an overall impression Sweden is doing better.
If nothing has really changed, how would you explain Sweden's obvious improvements at the junior level these last few years?
If nothing has really changed, how would you explain Sweden's obvious improvements at the junior level these last few years?
On senior level Sweden was even a bit better 6-7 years ago with Forsberg, Sundin, Näslund, Nylander, Alfredsson (in his prime), plus some guys we tend to forget about like Kenny Jönsson, Kim Johnsson, Modin, Norström, Öhlund (in his prime).
We had very few talents though, in the period 2002-2006 we failed to make the semis in wjc-20 five times in a row, risking relegation at times, in the period 2007-2012 we have made the semis 6 times in a row, earning 4 medals.
You know this allready, but I mean it's fair to say that swedish senior hockey really hasn't improved since 2006, loads of high profile senior players have retired but thanks to good junior development things still don't look that bleak.
I agree with that cheerup, but the old guard stars were products of the early/mid-nineties mostly. Then followed a more or less dark age of Swedish talent development, and now we're looking better than ever on the junior level (especially depthwise). I don't think it's fair to say that KHL/MHL is the only reason why Swedish prospects are getting hype when the junior teams have done so well in international competitions these past few years. In fact, I find it ludicrous considering the early 2000's period you mention in your post.
If we'll see a Forsberg/Sundin/Näslund/Alfie/Lidström.. generation out the current crop of youngsters.. now that's a different question altogether and I'm definitely not counting on it.
To be honest I don't know how Europe is making a comeback?
The Red Machine of the Soviet Union was maybe the best we saw for 3 decades.
Maybe more of righting the ship since the break-up of the Eastern Bloc as some nations are coming into their own internationally? Others are not.
I think Canada just had a freak "explosion" of talent in a 5ish year period. Most of these guys seem to be NHL now. The world juniors seems to have been getting more even over the last few years
I think Canada just had a freak "explosion" of talent in a 5ish year period. Most of these guys seem to be NHL now. The world juniors seems to have been getting more even over the last few years
I never thought about that. You may have a point. It was an AMAZING 5 years. I hope it is duplicated by Canada on a regular basis but you never know.
I think Canada just had a freak "explosion" of talent in a 5ish year period. Most of these guys seem to be NHL now. The world juniors seems to have been getting more even over the last few years
It may be down to a luck somewhat, but clearly the Canadian system is doing a wonferful job. It's also relative ; very few high end Europeans were trained in such a time period relative to what we might have expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi
Player development is cyclical. Shocked!
Yes, although this only accounts for some of the decline/surge of independant systems. All the European nations have seen declines at some stage in the last ten years, largely down to becoming lazy/implementing incorrect methods. Sweden went down/now is up. Finland is down/now is coming up. Russia has been very mixed. Slovakia is down. Switzerland is up. Czech's are down but i think will inevitably reverse the trends. I think Junior hockey is very cyclical (especially if the population is small), but it's cyclical because nations get lazy and don't properly manage their Junior systems/infrastructure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine
To be honest I don't know how Europe is making a comeback?
The Red Machine of the Soviet Union was maybe the best we saw for 3 decades.
Maybe more of righting the ship since the break-up of the Eastern Bloc as some nations are coming into their own internationally? Others are not.
It's making a comeback from stagnation, rather than increasing on what we perciev its peak to be. Outside of Slovakia/Czech Republic i would say the systems are relatively healthy now. I think the Czech Republic will inevitably recover and become strong again. Slovakia i doubt will ever be close to the glory days, but then those glory days are likely give a false perception of likely potential given it was a relative fluke for many reasons.
Meanwhile Switzerland has stabilised and continues to grow slowly. Still alot of work needs to be done there, yet clearly the sport itself is very popular within the Country. Germany remains very static unfortunately. Meanwhile i expect Belarus/Ukraine to slowly improve over a large time frame, whilst Latvia seem to be doing pretty well relative to previous years.
There are other minor European nations that have potential improvement in them, but that is many years away and requires alot of luck/good management.
Overall European hockey is doing ok and i expect to see an increase in the number of young European stars in the NHL soon. We haven't really had any since Malkin/Kopitar.
, but dont know whats holding them down. ( they probably lost some national team members in that plane crash in Russia- which is going to make it worse)
we all know their story, now some which is my personal opinion - the reason why they still do OK at WC, will hang in there at Olympics is: KHL, at this stage they probably have more players in KHL than NHL. Yes if not playing in KHL some of them would find themselves on 3rd/4th lines in NHL but mostly will be in AHL...and thats worse....
