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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-11-2012, 02:47 AM
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Well, I do think Dumart is better offensively than Provost, but even Dumart is pretty weak on a scoring line. The difference for me is that Dumart can play the puck-winner/glue guy role. He has value other than just offense.
Other than Dumart's one big season playing on the best line in the world, there is nothing to distinguish him from Provost offensively. And you don't think Claude Provost can win pucks?!

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Provost could be a decent safety valve winger for a line that is really poor defensively, but that's not the case with Nighbor there.
Or he could be a shadow next to Nighbor when facing teams with strong top line LWs, making a unit that can pull the teeth out of opposing teams' best offensive units. I have a feeling Reen is trying to set up a wing rotation. Something like:

Ramsey - Nighbor - Hextall - when facing an opponent with a stud top-line RW
Denneny - Nighbor - Provost - when facing an opponent with a stud top-line LW

He'll need a good coach to pull it off, but if Reen can close the deal, it's actually a pretty scary strategy.

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02-11-2012, 02:58 AM
  #402
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My 2nd line will also produce more offense than the vast majority of 2nd lines , while my first will definitely be the best shut down in the entire league.I can mix it up depending who my opponant is.You can downplay my first line because Provost is not an offensive superstar if you wish to do so , but at this point it remains to be seen if those first lines who'll be facing mine will be able to close the gap of what my 2nd line will create when they'll have to deal with Denneny-Nighbor-Provost.This mix of player was a dynasty line for the Ottawa senators and Provost fit just like Nighbor-Denneny's teammates.We'll see.

I can also make the ultimate line role and put Denneny-Oates-Hextall Sr which is not weak by any means , both wingers are strong goal scorer with lots of intangibles and they'll be centered by Oates , while the other line would be Ramsay-Nighbor-Provost , hardly gets better than this.This will of course be in specific situations.

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02-11-2012, 03:08 AM
  #403
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Ramsey - Nighbor - Provost, insofar as they would play together, is quite possibly the best defensive line that it is possible to make.

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02-11-2012, 03:09 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ramsey - Nighbor - Provost, insofar as they would play together, is quite possibly the best defensive line that it is possible to make.
Eh, I think there are a few better defensive LWs than Ramsey. Not to say that he isn't very good

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02-11-2012, 03:10 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ramsey - Nighbor - Provost, insofar as they would play together, is quite possibly the best defensive line that it is possible to make.
Have to switch Ramsay for Gainey for that at the very least.

Anyway , this isn't the Reen thread

We'll talk some more about line-ups when the assassinations begins.

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02-11-2012, 03:14 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Other than Dumart's one big season playing on the best line in the world, there is nothing to distinguish him from Provost offensively. And you don't think Claude Provost can win pucks?!
Nice that you agree that Dumart is better offensively... even if it is just one big season worth of better.

I haven't researched Provost myself, but nobody has ever tried to sell his puck-winning.... and after a brief look, he doesn't seem to excell in that area.

Quote:
Or he could be a shadow next to Nighbor when facing teams with strong top line LWs, making a unit that can pull the teeth out of opposing teams' best offensive units. I have a feeling Reen is trying to set up a wing rotation. Something like:

Ramsey - Nighbor - Hextall - when facing an opponent with a stud top-line RW
Denneny - Nighbor - Provost - when facing an opponent with a stud top-line LW

He'll need a good coach to pull it off, but if Reen can close the deal, it's actually a pretty scary strategy.
He's got 2 elite checking wingers. I think it's kind of a waste not to use them as a checking line. If he doesn't, then at least one of them basically goes to waste in a non-checking role.

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02-11-2012, 03:15 AM
  #407
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Eh, I think there are a few better defensive LWs than Ramsey. Not to say that he isn't very good
Ramsey is at least in the argument for best defensive LW.

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02-11-2012, 03:16 AM
  #408
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2 possible reasons ultimate hockey picked northcott for '35:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=110

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...8&postcount=68

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02-11-2012, 03:19 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Nice that you agree that Dumart is better offensively... even if it is just one big season worth of better.

I haven't researched Provost myself, but nobody has ever tried to sell his puck-winning.... and after a brief look, he doesn't seem to excell in that area.



He's got 2 elite checking wingers. I think it's kind of a waste not to use them as a checking line. If he doesn't, then at least one of them basically goes to waste in a non-checking role.
Why can't a line have multiple purposes?

It's your conception of hockey that I disagree with.

Checking line scoring line , I don't really gives a **** , it depends how teams are built.I build my Nighbor line so they face other top lines , and I'm comfortable with it for the moment , espiecally since I'm very comfortable with my 2nd.Provost isn't wasting any of his talent.A duo doesn't necessarily need a third party to produce , it's been done before in history with success.My nighbor line will do as much checking as scoring.Kelly is a top 3 offensive D playing with this unit , he'll smooth the transition game and things might just work better that way than with an average offensive RW.

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02-11-2012, 03:22 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ramsey is at least in the argument for best defensive LW.
Maybe on hfboards. You were around in the 70s. Did anyone consider him in Gainey's class at the time? So much of the case for Ramsay is a statistical case that ignores the face that his small goals against numbers were greatly influenced by Buffalo's tiny rink. Ramsay was an elite forechecker and in the conversation for best Pking wing of all time, but i don't think his even strength shadowing ability is on Gainey's class

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02-11-2012, 03:24 AM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He's got 2 elite checking wingers. I think it's kind of a waste not to use them as a checking line. If he doesn't, then at least one of them basically goes to waste in a non-checking role.
You're not thinking very creatively here.

Frank Nighbor is going to be his best checking center. Deploying one checking wing next to Nighbor depending on the balance of the opponent's top line is probably the best way to get the most out of Nighbor's two-way play. Besides, most teams don't put their top-2 offensive wingers on the same line, so trying to check all of an opponent's best forward with a single 3rd line is a rather dated way of thinking. Moving the checkers around between lines to react to matchups is probably the better way to go when you've got a 1st line center like Nighbor.

You criticize Provost on a scoringline, but would you want the Stewart - Forsberg line to go up against Nighbor - Provost?

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Maybe on hfboards. You were around in the 70s. Did anyone consider him in Gainey's class at the time? So much of the case for Ramsay is a statistical case that ignores the face that his small goals against numbers were greatly influenced by Buffalo's tiny rink. Ramsay was an elite forechecker and in the conversation for best Pking wing of all time, but i don't think his even strength shadowing ability is on Gainey's class
I'm not saying I think Ramsey was better than Gainey. I do not, but I was pointing out that Ramsey is at least in the conversation, and that for all practical purposes, Ramsey - Nighbor - Provost, insofar as they take the ice together, is the best checking line we're ever likely to see in the ATD.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-13-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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Old
02-11-2012, 03:38 AM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Why can't a line have multiple purposes?
You said it was a checking line, not me.

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It's your conception of hockey that I disagree with.

Checking line scoring line , I don't really gives a **** , it depends how teams are built.I build my Nighbor line so they face other top lines , and I'm comfortable with it for the moment , espiecally since I'm very comfortable with my 2nd.Provost isn't wasting any of his talent.A duo doesn't necessarily need a third party to produce , it's been done before in history with success.My nighbor line will do as much checking as scoring.
You built your top line to face other top lines, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have always wanted to do that. The problem I have is that you also selected an extra elite checking winger, who apparently will not be used in a checking role. That's just a waste in my opnion. The only reason to select guys like Ramsay and Provost this early is to use them to their full effectiveness, and that is ful time checking duty.

Quote:
Kelly is a top 3 offensive D playing with this unit , he'll smooth the transition game and things might just work better that way than with an average offensive RW.

If you had an average offensive RW, that might be ok. As I said before, you'll have several better offensive RWs slip through this entire draft. That will make Provost one of the worst offensive wingers in anyone's top-6.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You're not thinking very creatively here.

Frank Nighbor is going to be his best checking center. Deploying one checking wing next to Nighbor depending on the balance of the opponent's top line is probably the best way to get the most out of Nighbor's two-way play. Besides, most teams don't put their top-2 offensive wingers on the same line, so trying to check all of an opponent's best forward with a single 3rd line is a rather dated way of thinking. Moving the checkers around between lines to react to matchups is probably the better way to go when you've got a 1st line center like Nighbor.
I know exactly what he's doing. I just think it's a waste to select these guys so early when they are only going to be used to full effectiveness half the time each.

Quote:
You criticize Provost on a scoringline, but would you want the Stewart - Forsberg line to go up against Nighbor - Provost?
Our lines are not set yet, but it's no likely that Forsberg and Stewart play together at even strength.

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02-11-2012, 03:45 AM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Why can't a line have multiple purposes?

It's your conception of hockey that I disagree with.

Checking line scoring line , I don't really gives a **** , it depends how teams are built.I build my Nighbor line so they face other top lines , and I'm comfortable with it for the moment , espiecally since I'm very comfortable with my 2nd.Provost isn't wasting any of his talent.A duo doesn't necessarily need a third party to produce , it's been done before in history with success.My nighbor line will do as much checking as scoring.Kelly is a top 3 offensive D playing with this unit , he'll smooth the transition game and things might just work better that way than with an average offensive RW.
every line has multiple purposes.

imo, best checking lines are those that can kill the opponents' top line and still score. one of the main ways to prevent GA is by making opponents play D. it is a common practice, especially now among western teams.

in last ATD, i quoted a member of '35 maroons:
Quote:
We held them best when we were into their end and checked them. We had a bad few moments when we let them come at us. Anyway, we made it 3 straight, and it's all over.

btw, i noticed from reading newspapers about the '35 finals that cy wentworth seems to have been considered the playoff MVP instead of northcott.

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02-11-2012, 07:50 AM
  #414
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The Fireworks select LW Dean Prentice

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Old
02-11-2012, 08:34 AM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I know exactly what he's doing. I just think it's a waste to select these guys so early when they are only going to be used to full effectiveness half the time each.
It's not like the other guy will cease to exist when he's not skating next to Nighbor. Reen still has a 3rd line to build, and there are always checking duties more than one line deep unless facing a very defensive team. I don't think it is a waste unless you face a team that lacks offensive wingers on one side of the ice, which may happen, but won't happen a lot.

Regarding Provost...Claude was a tough, aggressive player. He played mostly on lines where the puckwinning duties were spread around (Richard, and others, were also capable diggers). I don't think he belongs as a primary puckwinner on a scoringline, but he is certainly capable of contributing significantly in that category on a line where the responsibility is spread around.

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02-11-2012, 08:41 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
A duo doesn't necessarily need a third party to produce
Lupul - Kessel this year can attest to that.

They can also attest to how important it is to have a third player on your line that can keep up with you offensively. On more than a few occasions, Bozak has brought the line down because he was unable to properly control the puck. Bozak is an alright offensive player, but I think Kessel and Lupul might be heading to 100 point seasons if they had a better center.

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02-11-2012, 09:18 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It's not like the other guy will cease to exist when he's not skating next to Nighbor. Reen still has a 3rd line to build, and there are always checking duties more than one line deep unless facing a very defensive team. I don't think it is a waste unless you face a team that lacks offensive wingers on one side of the ice, which may happen, but won't happen a lot.
He's still going to be using an elite checked in a secondary checking role. I just think it's a waste.

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02-11-2012, 09:21 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ramsey - Nighbor - Provost, insofar as they would play together, is quite possibly the best defensive line that it is possible to make.
Hmmm not so fast. Sure they would be in the running for the best 3 defensive players ever put on a line. But one can argue that a more effective defensive line would have more offensive 2-way players hemming top lines in their own end.

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02-11-2012, 09:26 AM
  #419
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Hmmm not so fast. Sure they would be in the running for the best 3 defensive players ever put on a line. But one can argue that a more effective defensive line would have more offensive 2-way players hemming top lines in their own end.
I can't imagine such a line would be put together except in certain situations - like defensive zone draws late in the game/period, etc. As a regular line, it would be a bad idea because it is a waste of Nighbor's offense, but it gives the team the ability to close out difficult defensive situations.

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02-11-2012, 09:35 AM
  #420
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02-11-2012, 09:43 AM
  #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I can't imagine such a line would be put together except in certain situations - like defensive zone draws late in the game/period, etc. As a regular line, it would be a bad idea because it is a waste of Nighbor's offense, but it gives the team the ability to close out difficult defensive situations.


Wouldn't you want at least one of the wingers to be a center or have known abilities of taking faceoffs?

Nighbor (Who i'm not aware of his faceoff abilities, but even if they are great) gets kicked out of the draw and you are well behind the eight ball with either Provost or Ramsay takingthe draw. (Unless either one of them are known for taking draws)

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02-11-2012, 10:07 AM
  #422
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Wouldn't you want at least one of the wingers to be a center or have known abilities of taking faceoffs?
That would be good, yes. I don't know anything about the respective wingers' faceoff abilities.

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02-11-2012, 10:40 AM
  #423
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Lupul - Kessel this year can attest to that.

They can also attest to how important it is to have a third player on your line that can keep up with you offensively. On more than a few occasions, Bozak has brought the line down because he was unable to properly control the puck. Bozak is an alright offensive player, but I think Kessel and Lupul might be heading to 100 point seasons if they had a better center.
a center is more important , I also won't use phil kessel and joffrey lupul to try to lose or win an argument in an ATD.

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02-11-2012, 10:42 AM
  #424
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Lol jarek I don't mean to downgrade you because you know a lot about hockey's history, but Lupul and Kessel with 100 point seasons (should we even say Kessel's name with LL around? He could constitute a possible pick)? Please. I'm not sure Kessel is capable of 100 with Crosby.

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02-11-2012, 11:24 AM
  #425
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Dawson City selects Flash Hollett, D.

Perfect start to our second pairing, and one of the best offensive d-men of his era.

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