Looking at how the goaltenders usually went pretty late this time, I feel like I'm the only one who didn't got value when I took my goaltender!
I think it's more important to compares the goaltenders in between them. Fuhr was the 22nd goaltender taken. You would rank him over which goaltenders taken so far?
That is a tough question.
I think Fuhr is hard to value because his regular seasons were ho-hum while the Oilers were on cruise control. Meanwhile, I'd put his playoff performances up with anyone.
I guess I'd say an argument could be made for anywhere 13-22 on that list based on overall value, depending on how much you believe the Oilers were taking it easy in the regular season and how much you may believe Fuhr is overrated. I don't think the separation after the big guns is all that much for the next 10 goalies. However, come playoff time Fuhr definitely bumps up several notches from where I got him - in my opinion.
It is hard to argue with the amount of contemporary people calling him out and out the best goaltender in the world, and with a playoff track record like his..
Good bio on Benedict. I didn't realize failing eye sight was what lead him to retire.
I actually just added some stuff about what I could find about his drinking. Seems that he was defintiely a drinker, but never went as far as malcontent to his team.
I think Fuhr is hard to value because his regular seasons were ho-hum while the Oilers were on cruise control. Meanwhile, I'd put his playoff performances up with anyone.
I guess I'd say an argument could be made for anywhere 13-22 on that list based on overall value, depending on how much you believe the Oilers were taking it easy in the regular season and how much you may believe Fuhr is overrated. I don't think the separation after the big guns is all that much for the next 10 goalies. However, come playoff time Fuhr definitely bumps up several notches from where I got him - in my opinion.
It is hard to argue with the amount of contemporary people calling him out and out the best goaltender in the world, and with a playoff track record like his..
However, except Ed Belfour, every goaltenders taken so far were called by many the best goaltender of their era.
I think Fuhr is hard to value because his regular seasons were ho-hum while the Oilers were on cruise control. Meanwhile, I'd put his playoff performances up with anyone.
I guess I'd say an argument could be made for anywhere 13-22 on that list based on overall value, depending on how much you believe the Oilers were taking it easy in the regular season and how much you may believe Fuhr is overrated. I don't think the separation after the big guns is all that much for the next 10 goalies. However, come playoff time Fuhr definitely bumps up several notches from where I got him - in my opinion.
It is hard to argue with the amount of contemporary people calling him out and out the best goaltender in the world, and with a playoff track record like his..
This is a good point. For most goalies, we look at their regular season stats and awards to get a rough value of them, then add or deduct points for the playoffs. For Fuhr, maybe that isn't a good method because the regular seasons literally didn't matter.
In the 1980s, not only did 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs, but the Oilers were so stacked, they could screw around for the entire regular season and end up with a high seed no matter how little they tried. Makes evaluating the ability of someone like Fuhr difficult when the team literally had no reason to give a crap about the regular season
The Seattle Metropolitans select: C/RW - Bernie Morris
The steals of last drafts are now getting picked where they should, it's nice to see. I'm happy that I didn't looked at last draft seeds, and planned that I could picked Russell Bowie at 270, Bernie Morris at 295 etc ... It was obvious with the talent of the GM this year those steals would move up, and rightfully so.
I didn't had time to comment on the selection of Vladimir Konstantinov before the last thread was closed. At my #206 pick, he was second on my list behind Moose Vasko and over Cy Wentworth, Herb Gardiner and Lionel Hitchman in order.
Vladimir Konstantinov. He obviously went way too high last draft, but I thought it becomes a decent pick in the late 190's-early 200's. No, I actually don't think he is better than any defenceman I named above (although in the same, close tier), but he brings a physical, intimidating, even vicious dimension to a defensive core that his very enticing. He's the perfect #3 defenceman, who plays against teams second offensive unit. These second lines most of time are surrounded by either less skilled, or less physical/powerful players, which make Konstantinov effectiveness getting a huge boost. Obviously, Bobby Hull and Maurice Richard can play against Konstantinov and be extremely effective, but against either skilled, but non-physical forward, or less skilled, but physical players, Konstantinov is right at his place. I also think his time spent in Russia is underrated, and definitely part of his resume. Part of me wanted to select him to look at this. Everything I read and saw of him screamed 'Valeri Vasiliev lite', in almost every way imaginable.
Herb Gardiner. Small note that I changed my mind a little after Mark gave some notes on him being a physical player. I looked around pretty fast on him, and I didn't saw anything on how physical he was. He placed highly twice for the Lady Bing, so I assume he was non-physical. He might just be the best defenceman of these five, but I would love to read on his play prior to the NHL.
This is a good point. For most goalies, we look at their regular season stats and awards to get a rough value of them, then add or deduct points for the playoffs. For Fuhr, maybe that isn't a good method because the regular seasons literally didn't matter.
In the 1980s, not only did 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs, but the Oilers were so stacked, they could screw around for the entire regular season and end up with a high seed no matter how little they tried. Makes evaluating the ability of someone like Fuhr difficult when the team literally had no reason to give a crap about the regular season
Exactly. That is why I think Fuhr somewhat justifiably slips a bit in all time ranking or when considering ATD career value/draft position.
He simply didn't have all the awards and strong statistical regular seasons that we base most of the comparisons on.. in fact his award resume looks pretty sparse for a guy who was "the best goaltender in the world". However, the Oilers were in a rather unique situation due to their team and the division/playoff format at the time. Come playoff time though, there haven't been many I would confidently say are better.
So in an ATD sense, we have to give some credit to the guys who accomplished those awards that Fuhr didn't - even if it wasn't for a lack of ability on his part. That being said, I'm not saying that Fuhr had a completely easy time of it in the regular season. I was lucky enough to see him play in his prime and I think that most people who saw him would agree that his regular season numbers in particular don't do him justice. He had a lot of odd man rushes etc. to deal with compared to many (all?) top goaltenders.
The difference is Fuhr could afford to play hard when need be and take it easy and possibly let a softie in when they were up a few goals.
Another important thing to note is that he didn't care about the softie. Whereas some goalies like Hasek and Roy hated like hell to let any goal in - even in practice - Fuhr was able to shrug off a lackadaisical goal when they were well ahead or even shrug off a bad goal and then bear down. His personality was important on that team. He played to the situation a lot, and the Oilers as a whole really buckled down in the playoffs.
Interestingly, the Oilers aren't the only team to follow this formula to success. The Islanders saved themselves a little bit for their playoff runs after some early big failures with better regular season records too, as an example.
Originally posted by EagleBelfour
I didn't had time to comment on the selection of Vladimir Konstantinov before the last thread was closed. At my #206 pick, he was second on my list behind Moose Vasko and over Cy Wentworth, Herb Gardiner and Lionel Hitchman in order.
Vladimir Konstantinov. He obviously went way too high last draft, but I thought it becomes a decent pick in the late 190's-early 200's. No, I actually don't think he is better than any defenceman I named above (although in the same, close tier), but he brings a physical, intimidating, even vicious dimension to a defensive core that his very enticing. He's the perfect #3 defenceman, who plays against teams second offensive unit. These second lines most of time are surrounded by either less skilled, or less physical/powerful players, which make Konstantinov effectiveness getting a huge boost. Obviously, Bobby Hull and Maurice Richard can play against Konstantinov and be extremely effective, but against either skilled, but non-physical forward, or less skilled, but physical players, Konstantinov is right at his place. I also think his time spent in Russia is underrated, and definitely part of his resume. Part of me wanted to select him to look at this. Everything I read and saw of him screamed 'Valeri Vasiliev lite', in almost every way imaginable
This is exactly what I was thinking, I was going for value with pick #230. I couldn't pass up on Vladimir Konstantinov especially because I almost took him at pick #219. At the time I thought he was the best shut-down/physical defenseman left on the board, and I figured he would be a good fit with either Scott Niedermayor or Harry Cameron.
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DoMakc selects LW Alexander Yakushev
I almost picked him with #219 and #230. I love the Big Yak, great pick at this point in the draft
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The Seattle Metropolitans select: C/RW - Bernie Morris
Another great pick, and good to see him rise in the draft. I always wandered why Bernie Morris never got more hall of fame talk, especially when talking about some of the best players not yet inducted into the HHOF. I was hoping he fall to the next round, but Nice Pick!
This is exactly what I was thinking, I was going for value with pick #230. I couldn't pass up on Vladimir Konstantinov especially because I almost took him at pick #219. At the time I thought he was the best shut-down/physical defenseman left on the board, and I figured he would be a good fit with either Scott Niedermayor or Harry Cameron.
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Another great pick, and good to see him rise in the draft. I always wandered why Bernie Morris never got more hall of fame talk, especially when talking about some of the best players not yet inducted into the HHOF. I was hoping he fall to the next round, but Nice Pick!
I don't think you have another choice, but to put Konstantinov with Niedermayer on your first pairing. As I wrote, I prefer Konstantinov on a second pairing, to really utilize his strength to a maximum, but he's definitely a decent bargain if you need a defensive defenceman on your first pairing. I would love to hear about hi pre-NHL time.
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It's funny that half the draft had already penciled down Bowie and/or Morris a round or two later in the draft!
My plans continue to be decimated. What the hell. I was convinced he'd be available at #259 and would have been a great fit for my 1st line.
He's a great pick, there's not much separating him from Foyston and Fredrickson.
Offensively, I think very little separates these three. But I get the impression that Morris lags far behind them in terms of intangibles (grit, taking a hit to make a play, physicality, defense) - and these aren't exactly strengths of theirs either. They're probably not even positives themselves in an ATD, but I think they are well up on Morris in that regard.
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Originally Posted by vecens24
Yeah he's going to be running low on strong LWs with DoMakc and I taking Yakushev and Krutov
Not really, but Im sure he isn't happy with this.
Like I said, now we see how committed Bugg is to his plan.
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian
Exactly. That is why I think Fuhr somewhat justifiably slips a bit in all time ranking or when considering ATD career value/draft position.
He simply didn't have all the awards and strong statistical regular seasons that we base most of the comparisons on.. in fact his award resume looks pretty sparse for a guy who was "the best goaltender in the world". However, the Oilers were in a rather unique situation due to their team and the division/playoff format at the time. Come playoff time though, there haven't been many I would confidently say are better.
So in an ATD sense, we have to give some credit to the guys who accomplished those awards that Fuhr didn't - even if it wasn't for a lack of ability on his part. That being said, I'm not saying that Fuhr had a completely easy time of it in the regular season. I was lucky enough to see him play in his prime and I think that most people who saw him would agree that his regular season numbers in particular don't do him justice. He had a lot of odd man rushes etc. to deal with compared to many (all?) top goaltenders.
The difference is Fuhr could afford to play hard when need be and take it easy and possibly let a softie in when they were up a few goals.
Another important thing to note is that he didn't care about the softie. Whereas some goalies like Hasek and Roy hated like hell to let any goal in - even in practice - Fuhr was able to shrug off a lackadaisical goal when they were well ahead or even shrug off a bad goal and then bear down. His personality was important on that team. He played to the situation a lot, and the Oilers as a whole really buckled down in the playoffs.
Interestingly, the Oilers aren't the only team to follow this formula to success. The Islanders saved themselves a little bit for their playoff runs after some early big failures with better regular season records too, as an example.
I gotta say, I am drinking this kool-aid and swishing it around my mouth a bit.
But let me post the flipside and see how you respond.
The Oilers are not the only super-dominant team to play in the NHL. In particular, the late 50s Habs, Late 70s habs, and early 80s Isles all were crazy dominant and won 4+ cups.
So why is this "I don't care some of the time" phenomenon exclusive to Fuhr?
From 1955-1959, the league average sv% was .911. Plante's was .924 (+13). The league average playoff sv% was .907. Plante's was .922 (+15).
From 1976-1979, the league average sv% was .888. Dryden's was .920 (+32). The league average playoff sv% was .897. Dryden's was .919 (+22).
From 1980-1983, the league average sv% was .877. Smith's was .899 (+22). The league average playoff sv% was .883. Smith's was .907 (+24).
In 1984, 85, 87 and 88, the league average sv% was .877. Fuhr's was .882 (+5). The league average playoff sv% was .887. Fuhr's was .899 (+12).
Last edited by seventieslord: 02-08-2012 at 10:22 PM.
I gotta say, I am drinking this kool-aid and swishing it around my mouth a bit.
But let me post the flipside and see how you respond.
The Oilers are not the only super-dominant team to play in the NHL. In particular, the late 50s Habs, Late 70s habs, and early 80s Isles all were crazy dominant and won 4+ cups.
All crazy dominant and all better defensively as a team in the regular season than the Oilers.
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So why is this "I don't care some of the time" phenomenon exclusive to Fuhr?
It was the 80s? The Oilers generally had a playoff berth secured by what, Christmas?
The Oilers' were partly the cause of and partly the product of their time.
And there are a few players on that squad that did the same thing as Fuhr, as you well know from your Coffey bio.
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From 1955-1959, the league average sv% was .911. Plante's was .924 (+13). The league average playoff sv% was .907. Plante's was .922 (+15).
Montreal finishes in goals against: 3, 1, 1, 1, 1.
Is Harvey better defensively than any Edmonton defender? Does anyone have Plante ranked lower than Fuhr?
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From 1976-1979, the league average sv% was .888. Dryden's was .920 (+32). The league average playoff sv% was .897. Dryden's was .919 (+22).
Montreal finishes in goals against: 1, 1, 1, 1.
Did the Oilers' have a defense consisting of Robinson/Savard/Lapointe? Do they have Bob Gainey?
Does anyone have Fuhr higher than Dryden on their list?
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From 1980-1983, the league average sv% was .877. Smith's was .899 (+22). The league average playoff sv% was .883. Smith's was .907 (+24).
In 1984, 85, 87 and 88, the league average sv% was .877. Fuhr's was .882 (+5). The league average playoff sv% was .887. Smith's was .899 (+12).
Islanders 80-83: 4, 4, 2, 1 And this is with tandem goaltending in which XXXXX was at times playing more/better than Smith.
Oilers team finishes GA their peak years: 10, 8, 10, 8. Again with tandem goaltending most of the time. A dynasty team with middle of the road defense. At least in the regular season.
The Islanders team which was past its peak in those years (84,85,87,88) still finishes better in GA those years, and Smith is being outplayed by XXXXX by that time: 4, 11, 9, 4
Do I really need to compare the Islanders style of play to the Oilers?
The Oilers are simply quite different than any of the teams you listed. They were much more easygoing in the regular season and buckled down in the playoffs to win.
Secondly, where are Smith's regular season numbers and Fuhr's playoff numbers for those years? (nvm see you mixed up the names)
Keeping in mind that Smith played all of 9 playoff games after 84, and Fuhr outplayed him in 84.. so I'm not sure what his playoff sv% shows in the first place.
Last edited by BraveCanadian: 02-08-2012 at 10:50 PM.
You know, I doubt saying 'Oilers didn't play D!' absolves Fuhr of all blame for his sub-par regular season performances.
Afterall:
- in their glory years, Oilers finished no worse than 3rd in GA in the Western Conference (which matters, considering the heavy conference GP bias)
- their roster was actually quite heavy with quality defensive D-men
- Fuhr's stats compared to his backups are hardly flattering: +.001, -.010, +.001, -.001, -.001, -.019 - and that's just in EDM, ignoring his disastrous early 90s.
The only argument one can truly make and accept is that Fuhr/Oilers didn't really care in the regular season, as Oilers were a given to make the postseason. But why did he play generally worse than his backups? Why was he absolutely atrocious on other teams (save STL), where this excuse is inapplicable?
Fuhr gets a lot of credit for winning the Cups, but why did the much weakened Oilers win in '90 without him, with his backup performing better than Fuhr ever did? I'm pretty sure there was a whole bunch of goalies, most still undrafted, who would've had just as much success as Fuhr did with that team.
