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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-12-2012, 05:30 PM
  #651
vecens24
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Dreak I know you PMed me the Stewart AS voting as far as him getting RW votes, however I do think you should throw them out there to everyone, as I'm not sure they're common knowledge (at least they weren't to me). I'm still not sure how I feel about Stewart playing RW and how it affects his effectiveness (and this could be more of a discussion that should come up during assassinations, but it was on my mind), so I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a case for that from you.

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02-12-2012, 05:34 PM
  #652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The problem with gambling in unknowns like that is the risk/reward aspect. The potential of Esposito actually being better on the wing is close to zero, while the chance of him being worse is much greater than that. Sure, he could be just as good, but he could also be a lot worse. On balance, a sensible person has to downgrade Esposito on the wing, just as he has to downgrade Stewart. There is no scoring upside in it, and plenty of downside.
You only need to downgrade them if you assume the player doesn't have the skill set and style of play to succeed there.

The funny thing is that many players don't really move into positions because they are best there. Centers, for example, generally end up in the middle, not because they are specifically suited to that position, but because they are the best player. Coaches don't want their best player essentially restricted to 1/2 the ice - they want them to be able to make an impact everywhere.

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Dreak I know you PMed me the Stewart AS voting as far as him getting RW votes, however I do think you should throw them out there to everyone, as I'm not sure they're common knowledge (at least they weren't to me). I'm still not sure how I feel about Stewart playing RW and how it affects his effectiveness (and this could be more of a discussion that should come up during assassinations, but it was on my mind), so I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a case for that from you.
I've made the case twice already.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I've already explained why Stewart, specifically, would make a better winger than centre. His 2 biggest weaknesses - skating and defense - are both less important for wingers than centres. Also, his 2 biggest strengths - scoring and toughness - are both more important for wingers than centres. What about his game makes anybody think he wouldn't be an effective winger?


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-13-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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Old
02-12-2012, 05:37 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You only need to downgrade them if you assume the player doesn't have the skill set and style of play to succeed there.

The funny thing is that many players don't really move into positions because they are best there. Centers, for example, generally end up in the middle, not because they are specifically suited to that position, but because they are the best player. Coaches don't want their best player essentially restricted to 1/2 the ice - they want them to be able to make an impact everywhere.
You are talking about children playing hockey? I think at the age most kids get set into one position or another, they are still relatively plastic in terms of what skills they have and can develop. Adult professional hockey players have much more specialized skill sets.

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02-12-2012, 05:41 PM
  #654
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I don't understand why speed is more important for a center than a winger - I have always thought it was the opposite.

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Old
02-12-2012, 05:46 PM
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You are talking about children playing hockey? I think at the age most kids get set into one position or another, they are still relatively plastic in terms of what skills they have and can develop. Adult professional hockey players have much more specialized skill sets.
How do you feel about Team Canada carrying a glut of centres every tournament? Honest question. Do you think that on any given year, they'd be better off with the 4th best natural LWer over the 5th best natural C? I'd say that on average, Canada probably brings 7 or 8 centres to those tournies.

I think the way national teams work is probably a closer comparison to the ATD than your average NHL team. It's a situation where you have enough elite options at centre that you can afford to have one of your best forwards on the wing instead of up the middle, which obviously isn't the case at the NHL level.

Again, I'm not saying that positions mean nothing, or that any player can move from one position to another with no problem. Skillset is important, and ideally, you want the guy to have at least played the position before. But I personally think there's more leeway than you're willing to give for positional movement, especially from centre to wing. I'd wager that there are plenty of elite NHL wingers who were playing centre as late as junior/college/AHL. I'm pretty sure Kessel would be one example of this.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-12-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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Old
02-12-2012, 05:52 PM
  #656
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How many of the forwards on the Devils 2000 Cup winner were originally drafted as centers? 8? 9? 10? Most of them for sure. 5 of their top 7 scorers this season for that matter.

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Old
02-12-2012, 05:57 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
How do you feel about Team Canada carrying a glut of centres every tournament? Honest question. Do you think that on any given year, they'd be better off with the 4th best natural LWer over the 5th best natural C? I'd say that on average, Canada probably brings 7 or 8 centres to those tournies.

I think the way national teams work is probably a closer comparison to the ATD than your average NHL team. It's a situation where you have enough elite options at centre that you can afford to have one of your best forwards on the wing instead of up the middle, which obviously isn't the case at the NHL level.

Again, I'm not saying that positions mean nothing, or that any player can move from one position to another with no problem. Skillset is important, and ideally, you want the guy to have at least played the position before. But I personally think there's more leeway than you're willing to give for positional movement, especially from centre to wing. I'd wager that there are plenty of elite NHL wingers who were playing centre as late as junior/AHL. I'm pretty sure Kessel would be one example of this.
I've seen speculation that lack of quality natural wingers has been one reason why Canadian teams that look stacked on paper sometimes struggle.

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02-12-2012, 06:04 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've seen speculation that lack of quality natural wingers has been one reason why Canadian teams that look stacked on paper sometimes struggle.
That could very well be the case with that 1998 Olympic team.

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02-12-2012, 06:11 PM
  #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've seen speculation that lack of quality natural wingers has been one reason why Canadian teams that look stacked on paper sometimes struggle.
Could be, although of the four tournaments in the last decade, the Team Canada with the most wingers was the pathetic 2006 showing in Torino, where a complete lack of chemistry was quite apparent. The most dominant performance featured 8 centres in the 2004 World Cup.

So again, I think it comes down to chemistry, and choosing the right guys to convert to wing. If you have 8 superstar wingers, awesome. But that's rarely the case.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-12-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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Old
02-12-2012, 06:25 PM
  #660
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I don't like picking the same player two drafts in a row but I don't have any more time to research and noone is really standing out.

The Mooseheads are pleased to round out their top 4 with D, Kevin Lowe.

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Old
02-12-2012, 06:28 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
I don't like picking the same player two drafts in a row but I don't have any more time to research and noone is really standing out.

The Mooseheads are pleased to round out their top 4 with D, Kevin Lowe.
When MB said that Adam Foote was the best defensive defenseman available "bar none," I thought it was a strange statement considering Kevin Lowe was still on the board. Even if you have a strong preference for modern players and guys who contributed to championships, Lowe fits the mold every bit as much as Foote.

I have Reds' pick.

Henrik Sedin, C

I think you are all familiar with this player

markrander is on the clock and has been PMed.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-13-2012 at 11:38 AM.
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Old
02-12-2012, 06:40 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have Reds' pick.

Henrik Sedin, C

I think you are all familiar with this player

markrander is on the clock and has been PMed.
Well that is certainly an interesting selection for his team rightnow....

Good pick though.

If I was him (and I was in this scenario last year and did the exact same thing), I'd pair Henrik and Kerr. The Sedin cycle is perfect for Kerr.

I'm very interested in how he's going to construct lines. He's got Yzerman-Abel-Henrik down the middle, with Ovechkin and Gillies already at LW, meaning he probably isn't going to use Abel there and have a Ovechkin-Sedin-Kerr line. I'll love to see what Reds says about this.

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Old
02-12-2012, 06:43 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Well that is certainly an interesting selection for his team rightnow....

Good pick though.

If I was him (and I was in this scenario last year and did the exact same thing), I'd pair Henrik and Kerr. The Sedin cycle is perfect for Kerr.

I'm very interested in how he's going to construct lines. He's got Yzerman-Abel-Henrik down the middle, with Ovechkin and Gillies already at LW, meaning he probably isn't going to use Abel there and have a Ovechkin-Sedin-Kerr line. I'll love to see what Reds says about this.
With Yzerman at #1 C, he can always use that line as his "checking line." Of course, he wouldn't want Ovechkin anywhere near that line in that case.

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02-12-2012, 06:49 PM
  #664
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The Fireworls are very pleased to select C/LW Rick MacLeish

Forming my top 6 of:


Howe - Mikita - McDonald
Prentice - MacLeish - Bathgate

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Old
02-12-2012, 06:56 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have Reds' pick.

Henrik Sedin, C

I think you are all familiar with this player

markrander is on the clock and has been PMed.
Three straight #1 finishes in assists, as well as two #2's, nothing special.

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02-12-2012, 06:59 PM
  #666
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I still wouldn't consider Sedin as good as Thornton in the playmaking department.

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02-12-2012, 06:59 PM
  #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Three straight #1 finishes in assists, as well as two #2's, nothing special.
Uh...IF he holds his pace this year his assist finishes will look like: 1,1,1,4,4,8

Which is exceptionally good in that regard.

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02-12-2012, 07:01 PM
  #668
monster_bertuzzi
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I still wouldn't consider Sedin as good as Thornton in the playmaking department.
Which Thornton? The Thornton who was peaking in 2005-2008 or the Thornton of today? Because today, it's no contenst.

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Old
02-12-2012, 07:17 PM
  #669
TheDevilMadeMe
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Assist crown - an invention of the hfboards community

These are Henrik's top 10 points finishes: 1st, 4th, 5th*

*Projected 11-12

These are Joe Thornton's top 10 points finishes: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 8th

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02-12-2012, 07:23 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Assist crown - an invention of the hfboards community

These are Henrik's top 10 points finishes: 1st, 4th, 5th*

*Projected 11-12

These are Joe Thornton's top 10 points finishes: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 8th
It's common knowledge Thornton has had the better career.

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02-12-2012, 07:23 PM
  #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Assist crown - an invention of the hfboards community

These are Henrik's top 10 points finishes: 1st, 4th, 5th*

*Projected 11-12

These are Joe Thornton's top 10 points finishes: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 8th
Largely driven by assists..

I don't think anyone will deny that Thornton is better, but Henrik is a damn fine player by now.

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Old
02-12-2012, 07:25 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post


He did single-handedly carry his 2nd line against me last year. Thankfully MacLeish wont have that much responsibility this year. I know he's not a top end 2nd line centre but I feel he's a good fit playing with Prentice and Bathgate.
I do think that MacLeish has the ability to just do it all on his own, and while he doesn't have the regular season placings of some other centers -- he is definitely strong in the playoffs.

That being said, mark won't have the same criticism that I had to suffer last year because, in addition to MacLeish being able to do it on his own if he has to, mark has Bathgate.

My picks coming shortly..

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02-12-2012, 07:30 PM
  #673
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I have Reds' pick.

Henrik Sedin, C

I think you are all familiar with this player

markrander is on the clock and has been PMed.
Good thing I had scratch him off my list of players I wanted at 297, or else I would of been unhappy!

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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Three straight #1 finishes in assists, as well as two #2's, nothing special.
Top-10 Assist (1st, 1st, 1st*, 4th, 4th, 8th)

* 2011-2012

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02-12-2012, 08:57 PM
  #674
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With their 9th round pick (288), the Guelph Platers select scoring speedster:


RW, Bill Mosienko






And with their 10th round pick (289), the Guelph Platers select 7 time 20+ goal scorer and 3 time Selke winner :



W, Jere Lehtinen




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Old
02-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #675
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Thought about taking Lehtinen as opposed to Walker, however in what I was able to research I liked what I thought was Walker's ability to play with Keon a little better as more of a playmaker. Good pick though with Lehtinen.

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