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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:10 PM
  #751
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Lord knows, when seventies doesn't agree with a pick he has to go ape **** and cry like he never made an unpopular pick in his life.

Shades of when he told me I should quit the draft if I am to "keep picking modern teams" because it is against the "spirit of the ATD", when I had previously openly admitted to love researching players pre-1927.


Last edited by chaosrevolver: 02-13-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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02-13-2012, 12:13 PM
  #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Lowe was behind Coffey every season, of course, but also:

1983: undrafted
1984: 2 undrafted
1985: undrafted
1986: 3 undrafted
1987: undrafted

**Coffey’s now gone**

1988: undrafted
1989: undrafted
1990: no one, he was the #1
1991: 4 undrafted
1992: 5 undrafted
1983: #1 Defensive defenseman
1984: #1 Defensive defenseman
1985: #1 Defensive defenseman
1986: 3 undrafted, dont know what happened here? I mean to Lowe not your ranking.
1987: #1 Defensive defenseman

**Coffey’s now gone**

1988: #1 Defensive defenseman in competition with an undrafted tho.
1989: #1 Defensive defenseman in competition with another undrafted.
1990: no one, he was the #1
1991: I would say he was still #1 amongst defensive D's
1992: Dont remember how much he was actually used in NY.

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02-13-2012, 12:15 PM
  #753
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The biggest thing that could definitely help Corbeau's case are favorable comparisons between him and contemporary defensemen. Quotes by prominent figures of the 1910s and 1920s calling him better than other prominent defensemen would go a long way towards justifying his draft position, IMO.

The problem with defensemen of Corbeau's era is that there is so little data that effectively compares them to each other.

Hell, if you can find a good off-ice reason for why Corbeau isn't in the Hall of Fame (when several of his undrafted contemporaries are), that would help his stock in my eyes.

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02-13-2012, 12:18 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I guess I didn't convince that many people that there's no concrete reason to think that Corbeau is anything special.

He's a player whose draft position seems to rest entirely on a a single line from the book Ultimate Hockey, in my opinion.
I think I campaigned even harder in that regard… and yet he gets canonized even higher…. Terrible.

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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Lord knows, when seventies doesn't agree with a pick he has to go ape **** and cry like he never made an unpopular pick in his life.

Shades of when he told me I should quit the draft if I am to "keep picking modern teams" when I had previously openly admitted to love researching players pre-1927.
Really, I would LOVE to see you prove I ever said anything close to this.

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02-13-2012, 12:19 PM
  #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The biggest thing that could definitely help Corbeau's case are favorable comparisons between him and contemporary defensemen. Quotes by prominent figures of the 1910s and 1920s calling him better than other prominent defensemen would go a long way towards justifying his draft position, IMO.

The problem with defensemen of Corbeau's era is that there is so little data that effectively compares them to each other.

Hell, if you can find a good off-ice reason for why Corbeau isn't in the Hall of Fame (when several of his undrafted contemporaries are), that would help his stock in my eyes.
I'll do what I can to find something to help others come to a better understanding as to why he is certainly passable at this pick.

Thanks for actually giving some constructive criticism rather then ranting like a ten year old.

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02-13-2012, 12:22 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think I campaigned even harder in that regard… and yet he gets canonized even higher…. Terrible.



Really, I would LOVE to see you prove I ever said anything close to this.
"I hate teams like this, your older player is Baun..I was alive to see all these guys except him, oh my god. This is against the spirit of the ATD..blah blah blah."

Perhaps the actual "quit the draft thing" was a little extreme..but that is the impression it left on me and was the main reason I didn't want to come back in the next draft, until VanIslander convinced me otherwise.

I thought the spirit of the ATD was to try and justify the placement of players in the history of hockey, while also having a fun time learning about players.


Last edited by chaosrevolver: 02-13-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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02-13-2012, 12:22 PM
  #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The biggest thing that could definitely help Corbeau's case are favorable comparisons between him and contemporary defensemen. Quotes by prominent figures of the 1910s and 1920s calling him better than other prominent defensemen would go a long way towards justifying his draft position, IMO.

The problem with defensemen of Corbeau's era is that there is so little data that effectively compares them to each other.

Hell, if you can find a good off-ice reason for why Corbeau isn't in the Hall of Fame (when several of his undrafted contemporaries are), that would help his stock in my eyes.
Whats even more unsetteling is that his off-ice reputation seems great if I'm not completely lost I think it was he who died during heroic circumstances on a boat?

Edit: It could also be that Corbeau is his era's answer to Mark Howe.


Last edited by jkrx: 02-13-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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Old
02-13-2012, 12:28 PM
  #758
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Didn't habs used him to check Esposito? i think Backstrom pretty succesfull against him
i know they did in '69. esposito scored 8p in 6 games in that series, but 5 were in a 5-0 win. my understanding of that series was that montreal's goaltending was the difference, but i may be confusing '68 and '69.

habs boston series in '69 was also the de facto championship b/c an expansion team would appear in the finals.

i think henri richard played against esposito in '71, but backstrom was not an option b/c habs had traded him earlier in that season (notorious trade that allowed them to get lafleur).



after looking through some papers, i was confusing '68 and '69. backstrom did great defensive work on esposito in '69. esposito is not in my division,though, and i don't know how backstrom played against other big F's.



it is hard not to notice that habs tended not to have a great amount of trouble replacing players.

habs had another dynasty after losing harvey, plante, moore, geoffrion, johnson and 2 very good role players (acquired worsley and some depth players in trade of plante). '62 habs set a scoring record after dumping harvey and after injuries to their top F's. habs again were able to stop hull after provost had retired.

habs won cups after laperriere missed playoffs with injury, after tremblay joined WHA, after trading backstrom, after toe blake retired, after beliveau retired,

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02-13-2012, 12:37 PM
  #759
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My thing with Corbeau is that yeah we know he was a tough guy who hit and fought and was penalized a lot, however we really have no idea how good he was in his own zone. To me he seems like a guy that left his defensive position a lot to throw around his weight and rush up the ice. That's the biggest thing I'd like substantiation about as far as taking Corbeau this high. Like if you look through all of his quotes, you see a ton about his ability to rush up ice and hit, but nearly nothing about his ability in his own zone.

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:40 PM
  #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I'll do what I can to find something to help others come to a better understanding as to why he is certainly passable at this pick.

Thanks for actually giving some constructive criticism rather then ranting like a ten year old.
The constructive criticism was all done last draft. You just didn’t listen, and that’s why you have Corbeau in the 10th round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
"I hate teams like this, your older player is Baun..I was alive to see all these guys except him, oh my god. This is against the spirit of the ATD..blah blah blah."
If you found the post, why not just post it for all to see, instead of misquoting segments of it?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...4&postcount=79

And dude…. This was over three years ago! Let it go!

Quote:
Perhaps the actual "quit the draft thing" was a little extreme..
Not “extreme”… it’s called wrong. You don’t say people said things they didn’t say, and you especially don’t put it in quotes as though it’s exactly what they said.

Quote:
I thought the spirit of the ATD was to try and justify the placement of players in the history of hockey, while also having a fun time learning about players.
Did you think that then? Did I think that then? Does it matter what either of us thought three years ago? I can’t believe you have had this bottled up for so long. Take a deep breath.

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:47 PM
  #761
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Thrashers select James Grant Schoenfeld,D

Can somebody please pm the next GM?

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:57 PM
  #762
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... I think it was he who died during heroic circumstances on a boat? ...
His death seems more like he got a lot of people killed for no reason than heroic to me.

Quote:
Corbeau, an avid boater and fisherman, owned his own 79-foot yacht, but it was ill equiped to handle the number of people who boarded on the fateful day of September 21, 1942. A severe storm hit, and the dangerously overloaded boat was not able to speed back to the docks. The boat would capsize in the violent waves, killing Corbeau and most of his 41 guests.

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02-13-2012, 12:59 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The constructive criticism was all done last draft. You just didn’t listen, and that’s why you have Corbeau in the 10th round.
Or I didn't remember. Maybe it's EB's reputation that lets people be a little easier on him. Hmm..don't get me wrong, not trying to peg you as a bad guy but if your not a fan then say you don't like it, why you don't, and move on..clearly I never saw the discussion last draft or I wouldn't of taken him. Everyone makes mistakes, and I find you and a few others leave the CnC behind and rather kill the other part of the "spirit of the ATD" which is having a little fun.



Quote:
If you found the post, why not just post it for all to see, instead of misquoting segments of it?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...4&postcount=79

And dude…. This was over three years ago! Let it go!
Where is their a misquote in what I just said. I already acknowledged the one was taken differently/in an extreme sense. Get over it? I'm well over it, otherwise I wouldn't be in these drafts still. But this isn't the first time that you will kill the fun in these. I personally know of two members who really didn't like how you flipped out when things didn't go the way you like it to go. It's a draft..we aren't all historians who saw all these players play.


Quote:
Not “extreme”… it’s called wrong. You don’t say people said things they didn’t say, and you especially don’t put it in quotes as though it’s exactly what they said.
While you never said it, the stigma of the post came off that way. Hence me saying I took it as an extreme.



Quote:
Did you think that then? Did I think that then? Does it matter what either of us thought three years ago? I can’t believe you have had this bottled up for so long. Take a deep breath.
Yes, I thought that then. You? Oh I won't bother to speculate.

And how do we know it's still different today? Maybe I should start drafting a modern team again just to find out. Annoying to put an extensive list together and then have people tell you that you are going against the spirit of the ATD.

I'm relaxed, are you?

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:03 PM
  #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Where is their a misquote in what I just said.
uhh, look at what you said I said, and look at what I actually said.

Quote:
I personally know of two members who really didn't like how you flipped out when things didn't go the way you like it to go.
oh great, another one of these.

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:07 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
uhh, look at what you said I said, and look at what I actually said.



oh great, another one of these.
I'm pretty well done with this. I made my point.

If you need to keep raging about my pick, hit me up on Facebook or through PM.

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02-13-2012, 01:09 PM
  #766
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Earlier Sturm mentioned that the Boston Bruins had a poor team defense while Jack Crawford was there. I thought I'd investigate this. These are the Bruins ranks in GAA during Crawford's career:

1939: 1st out of 7 (Shore's last season as a 1st Teamer. Shore and Clapper were the 2 first teamers. Crawford was probably Boston's #3)
1940: 2nd out of 7
1941: 2nd (tied) out of 7 (Clapper's last season as a 1st Teamer)
1942: 1st out of 7 (Crawford took over as Boston's #1 defensive defenseman, an undrafted offensive-minded teammate was a 2nd Team All Star)
1943: 3rd out of 6 (Crawford and teammate Flash Hollett were 2nd Teamers)
1944: 5th out of 6 (Clapper was a 2nd Team All Star)
1945: 5th out of 6
1946: 2nd out of 6 (Crawford led all defensemen in All Star voting)
1947: 3rd out of 6
1948: 3rd out of 6
1949: 4th out of 6
1950: 5th ouf ot 6 (Quackenbush takes over from Crawford as Boston's #1)

During Crawford's time as Boston's #1 defensive defenseman (1942-1949), the team was usually an above average defensive team, with the major exception of the two war years (1944, 1945). Boston might have been the hardest hit team in the league during the war years, so it's hard to tell how much "blame" Crawford deserves.


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02-13-2012, 01:14 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Or I didn't remember. Maybe it's EB's reputation that lets people be a little easier on him. Hmm..don't get me wrong, not trying to peg you as a bad guy but if your not a fan then say you don't like it, why you don't, and move on..clearly I never saw the discussion last draft or I wouldn't of taken him. Everyone makes mistakes, and I find you and a few others leave the CnC behind and rather kill the other part of the "spirit of the ATD" which is having a little fun.
I didn't go easy on EB. A large part of my playoff series with EB (the divisional finals!) involved me going after Corbeau as a weakness that I perceived. You're free to disagree with the criticism, but it was a prominent part of our playoff series.

What's CnC?

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02-13-2012, 01:16 PM
  #768
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I didn't go easy on EB. A large part of my playoff series with EB (the divisional finals!) involved me going after Corbeau as a weakness that I perceived. You're free to disagree with the criticism, but it was a prominent part of our playoff series.
I know you didn't. Wasn't really referring to you as typically you give solid CnC. When a bad pick is made, you actually explain why you think so and say.."if you find this it can help in my mind"..I respect that.

Yeah, I had internet issues during the majority of the playoffs and the end of the draft, hence why I never saw it. Should have probably checked that out.

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:41 PM
  #769
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By the way, TDMM, I meant to post the vs. #2 numbers with outliers and teammates removed, for Sundin and Federko:

Sundin: 95, 89, 86, 81, 80, 78, 78, 77, 76, 74 (and an 11th-16th all better than Federko's 10th-best, 66)
Federko: 90, 84, 82, 79, 75, 74, 73, 69, 69, 66

Sundin was at a 66% or higher level for every season of his career except the first and last.

edit: actually, for Federko it's his whole career except his first two and last two, and his career was shorter.

Those numbers aren't even; Sundin wins it the whole way through, but even if they were even, you have to go with the more versatile producer. 42% of Sundin's points were goals. For Federko, it's just 33%.

Of course, if the question is whether I'd rather have Sundin at 220 or Federko at 276, then it becomes extremely difficult to answer.

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02-13-2012, 01:44 PM
  #770
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By the way, TDMM, I meant to post the vs. #2 numbers with outliers and teammates removed, for Sundin and Federko:

Sundin: 95, 89, 86, 81, 80, 78, 78, 77, 76, 74 (and an 11th-16th all better than Federko's 10th-best, 66)
Federko: 90, 84, 82, 79, 75, 74, 73, 69, 69, 66

Sundin was at a 66% or higher level for every season of his career except the first and last.

edit: actually, for Federko it's his whole career except his first two and last two, and his career was shorter.

Those numbers aren't even; Sundin wins it the whole way through, but even if they were even, you have to go with the more versatile producer. 42% of Sundin's points were goals. For Federko, it's just 33%.

Of course, if the question is whether I'd rather have Sundin at 220 or Federko at 276, then it becomes extremely difficult to answer.
That certainly looks favorable for Sundin.

2 questions:
1) Why remove teammates?
2) Did Federko or Sundin ever have teammates worth removing anyway?

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02-13-2012, 01:48 PM
  #771
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
That certainly looks favorable for Sundin.

2 questions:
1) Why remove teammates?
2) Did Federko or Sundin ever have teammates worth removing anyway?
Pretty sure he meant outlier teammates (i.e. Coffey, Kurri, etc.)

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02-13-2012, 01:50 PM
  #772
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His death seems more like he got a lot of people killed for no reason than heroic to me.
I found this.

Quote:
At about 9:50pm, the Wawinet struck a sand bar on the south end of Beausoleil Island and listed to the starboard side and, with the portholes open, began to take on water.

One report said you could see a 25 foot rift in the sand bar where the boat had struck.

Despite Corbeau’s warnings, the men rushed to the port side out of panic and the boat buckled to that side, taking on more water. The boat quickly began to sink rapidly.

Witness accounts, in an article by Gordon Sinclair of The Toronto Star, state that Corbeau may have been thinking to go down with the boat, but not before trying to save his guests.

“I was up in the wheelhouse with Bert when we were on the way home,” said survivor Chas Rankin.

“There were two others there and Bert was talking with one of these when he swung hard left to come around. She heeled over pretty heavy and, with the large square windows open, they filled with a great gush of water and she went down within two minutes.”

“When Bert saw what happened, he didn’t want to be saved,” Rankin continued.

“We were both beside Bert and there was a bright moon. As the boys were struggling in the water, Bert peeled off his clothes and said ‘You boys swim for it..Good luck.’”

“Bert and I went out out of the wheelhouse sort of sideways and I pulled off my windbreaker sort of sideways and trod water where he was. I saw Bert take hold of one chap and pulled him up to the boat as she hesitated before making the plunge.”

“You’re dead right,” echoed fellow survivor Stewart Cheetham on Rankin’s account.

“I was below in the galley when she swung around sharp and the water started pouring in through the side windows. Charles Rankin started swimming straight off and Bert Corbeau climbed climbed up to where I was . He looked the whole picture over in the moonlight then he just slid in. Bert Corbeau was a strong swimmer and a very good guy.”

In all chances, Corbeau tried to save as many as he could before succumbing to the frigid waters of Georgian bay.
Now we are both probably right.

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02-13-2012, 01:51 PM
  #773
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Pretty sure he meant outlier teammates (i.e. Coffey, Kurri, etc.)
Oh, of course.

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02-13-2012, 01:51 PM
  #774
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
That certainly looks favorable for Sundin.

2 questions:
1) Why remove teammates?
2) Did Federko or Sundin ever have teammates worth removing anyway?
teammates of outliers who benefitted and skewed the results (Kurri, Coffey, Cashman, Rob Brown)

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02-13-2012, 01:59 PM
  #775
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Of course, if the question is whether I'd rather have Sundin at 220 or Federko at 276, then it becomes extremely difficult to answer.
I'd take Federko easily at those placings.

Especially with the massaging that needs to be done to put Sundin ahead - and of course the playoffs where Federko is an easy choice.

Neither one of them was anything to write home about defensively or physically..

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