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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-13-2012, 04:44 PM
  #826
BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
1979: 2, Dionne, 130, 95
1980: 3, LaFleur, 125, 94
1981: 3. *******, 131, 104
1982: 3. Stastny, 139, 92
1983: 3. Savard, 121, 84
1984: 4. Stastny, 119, 107
1985: 4. Dionne, 126, 103
1986: 6, Stastny, 122, 102
1987: 5. Gilmour, 105, 72
1988: 4, Hawerchuk, 121, 89

1992: 5, Robitaille/Messier, 107, 76
1993: 3, Oates, 142, 114
1994: 3, Oates, 112, 85
1995: 2, Lindros/Jagr, 70, 47
1996: 6, Lindros, 115, 83
1997: 3, Kariya, 99, 94
1998: 2, Forsberg, 91, 74
1999: 2, Selanne, 107, 83
2000: 2, Bure, 94, 73
2001: 3. Elias, 96, 74
2002: 2, Naslund, 90, 80
2003: 2, Naslund, 104, 72
2004: 2, Sakic/Kovalchuk, 87, 75
2006: 3, Ovechkin, 106, 78
2007: 2, Thornton, 114, 76
2008: 2, Malkin, 106, 78
You call me a slave to my system for sticking to using #2, but you feel the need to remove Mario as an outlier when he scores 107 points? He's already removed himself as an outlier by missing 17 games.

1987 has pretty much across the board the lowest scoring leader board of the 80s but you feel you need to go from 108 at #2 to 105 at #5.

I can buy that removing outliers can help in some seasons, but not removing Trottier when he wins the Art Ross, but removing Bossy when he finishes 5th, and only 1 point ahead of 6th at that.

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02-13-2012, 04:52 PM
  #827
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The way I look at it , we 28 years old guy are pretty much the last generation that saw top players in action , because the newest one had the unfortunate luck of watching one of the worst level of top-tier player in the NHL , that's why you often hear on the main board that ''Hockey has changed too much , you can't dominate like they used to , you can't win the Art Ross every year nowadays''

While I agree that hockey is getting tougher , it's not getting tougher for top players , they might score a little bit less points , but overall if we had a very top player in this league he would win the art ross every year just like in the gretzky-lemieux-jagr era.

Of course it's not every young guy that thinks like that , but it seems they feel the need to defend their era but the yare really annoying when they pretend the top players are actually BETTER than the great of the past while this era just simply suck.

It's too bad we never saw what Crosby could've done with some momentum , and I'm still wondering if Malkin can step it up for the rest of his 20s , but we'll see.To be honest the Art Ross situation is a bit shameful since Jagr won his last.I mean 11 consecutive years with a differant player?! WTF is this?

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02-13-2012, 05:00 PM
  #828
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The way I look at it , we 28 years old guy are pretty much the last generation that saw top players in action , because the newest one had the unfortunate luck of watching one of the worst level of top-tier player in the NHL , that's why you often hear on the main board that ''Hockey has changed too much , you can't dominate like they used to , you can't win the Art Ross every year nowadays''

While I agree that hockey is getting tougher , it's not getting tougher for top players , they might score a little bit less points , but overall if we had a very top player in this league he would win the art ross every year just like in the gretzky-lemieux-jagr era.

Of course it's not every young guy that thinks like that , but it seems they feel the need to defend their era but the yare really annoying when they pretend the top players are actually BETTER than the great of the past while this era just simply suck.

It's too bad we never saw what Crosby could've done with some momentum , and I'm still wondering if Malkin can step it up for the rest of his 20s , but we'll see.To be honest the Art Ross situation is a bit shameful since Jagr won his last.I mean 11 consecutive years with a differant player?! WTF is this?
I think it's also a league full of parity. With so many players from Europe and Russia, it's tougher to stick out from the crowd. Guys like Crosby have been able to do it, consistently being a top player in the league. However, looking at guys like Jarome, St. Louis, etc. and even these guys don't have top-5 seasons every year..sometimes not even top-10 years.

I don't know if it shows that the players are a weak crop or if the crop just has gotten that much stronger as parity grows wild in the NHL.

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02-13-2012, 05:02 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
OoOoooh, I guess that settles it.

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02-13-2012, 05:02 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
You call me a slave to my system for sticking to using #2, but you feel the need to remove Mario as an outlier when he scores 107 points? He's already removed himself as an outlier by missing 17 games.
I subscribe to "he's mario and he's an outlier just by existing". even in an off-year like this, he is another name clogging up the top-5 in scoring that other eras didn't have.

Quote:
1987 has pretty much across the board the lowest scoring leader board of the 80s but you feel you need to go from 108 at #2 to 105 at #5.
if the effect is that small I don't see the need for the criticism. Gretzky and Lemieux are outliers, so is Kurri by association.

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I can buy that removing outliers can help in some seasons, but not removing Trottier when he wins the Art Ross, but removing Bossy when he finishes 5th, and only 1 point ahead of 6th at that.
I never removed Bossy.

In 1986 after outliers are removed (Gretzky & cohorts, Lemieux), Bossy is the #1. Stastny is #2.

it is reasonable to say that in a world without Mario and Wayne (which is what most of the rest of hockey history was), the top-2 in scoring in 1986 are Bossy and Stastny. Agree?

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02-13-2012, 05:02 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i considered backstrom, and i have wanted to research him more, but he is like a lesser modano and i wanted to be able to match up with big F's.

it seems to be a common opinion that backstrom could have been a star if he had played for a different team that gave him a bigger role. he was a huge star in junior.


in '62, in addition to trade of harvey to NYR, beliveau, moore and henri richard missed a significant number of games (and geoffrion missed 8. all 4 were below a point per game.), but habs broke the record for goals by a team with 259. 2nd most was TML at 232.

shows the great depth of habs of that era.
I thought it was one of the better defensive forward available to play against Wayne Gretzky. I wanted speed and smart to play against him, and I think I found my guy. Obviously, someone like Tkaczuk bring other skillset that might be better suited against other great centre of All-Time. However, it's not like Backstrom was a push over, and effectively checked the like of Phil Esposito.

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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Posts being deleted, sweet..

Anyway, good pick with Backstrom. Surprised to see you go with him EB since I specifically remember you having him before, but at this point, he is definitely hard to be passed on.
Haha, well I MAY have cheated a little bit on that one! I just want to be original and not pick the same guys when other options are available, but although other great defensive centre are available, Backstrom was in my opinion the best available for the role I intented to play him.

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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Or I didn't remember. Maybe it's EB's reputation that lets people be a little easier on him. Hmm..don't get me wrong, not trying to peg you as a bad guy but if your not a fan then say you don't like it, why you don't, and move on..clearly I never saw the discussion last draft or I wouldn't of taken him. Everyone makes mistakes, and I find you and a few others leave the CnC behind and rather kill the other part of the "spirit of the ATD" which is having a little fun.
I think the discussion went about 5 pages, if not more! I had it anything but easy! However, 70's is the biggest detractor of Corbeau. I respect is opinion, but it's one among many.

My opinion on Corbeau goes as this: Great leader, extremely physical and nasty, a good puck rusher with good offensive abilities, average speed and defence (which mean under average on both account in the ATD). If Corbeau's skillset is something you desperately need (An elite bodychecker with offence from the backend isn't the easiest to find), he's a passable selection at this point. However, from my own admission last draft I think he should drop a full round or two. Somewhere around 350-to-400 would be a very fair spot for Corbeau. Beyond that, and as a #5 in a 32 team league, he's a great selection.

Feel free to add more on my biography Chaos, but I went berserk with that one and I would be surprise if you find anything significant. If you do so, please share with us, Corbeau is a polarizing defenceman around here!

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I found this.

Now we are both probably right.
My biography on Corbeau has a resume of the incident. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING I could find on Corbeau, was written in it!

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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
D Leo Boivin
May getting picked too soon in the last few drafts, but at this point I love the selection.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I brought him up because EB made a big deal about how he was a step up from other defensive defensemen who were left.
I didn't made a 'big deal' about it, I just stated he was, which I still believe.



EDIT: This is my ninth draft, I'm 24.

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02-13-2012, 05:04 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I think it's also a league full of parity. With so many players from Europe and Russia, it's tougher to stick out from the crowd. Guys like Crosby have been able to do it, consistently being a top player in the league. However, looking at guys like Jarome, St. Louis, etc. and even these guys don't have top-5 seasons every year..sometimes not even top-10 years.

I don't know if it shows that the players are a weak crop or if the crop just has gotten that much stronger as parity grows wild in the NHL.
ahah see what I meant guys , even an ATD GM from this age range is touched by this epidemic.The only reason guys like St.Louis and the Sedins are able to win Art Rosses is because there is a clear lack of TOP players in this league , not because of parity.Guys like Gretzky , Lemieux wouldn't have let this happen in a million years.They were always parity once you get into 3rd/4th in scoring and below , which is now 1st and below because the lack of top players.

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02-13-2012, 05:04 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I think it's also a league full of parity. With so many players from Europe and Russia, it's tougher to stick out from the crowd. Guys like Crosby have been able to do it, consistently being a top player in the league. However, looking at guys like Jarome, St. Louis, etc. and even these guys don't have top-5 seasons every year..sometimes not even top-10 years.

I don't know if it shows that the players are a weak crop or if the crop just has gotten that much stronger as parity grows wild in the NHL.
the latter.

top-20 is the new top-10.

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02-13-2012, 05:05 PM
  #834
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I


I didn't made a 'big deal' about it, I just stated he was, which I still believe.
.
Yeah, true. Sorry to sort of call you out on it. You more or less mentioned it in passing and were jumped on by about 5 other GMs.

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02-13-2012, 05:08 PM
  #835
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
the latter.

top-20 is the new top-10.
how can you of all people not see that the upper echelon is one of the weakest in history?

Of course the 5th and 6th guys and so are as strong as ever , but as far as top 3 in the league is concerned the last decade was pretty poor if you ask me.

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02-13-2012, 05:12 PM
  #836
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ahah see what I meant guys , even an ATD GM from this age range is touched by this epidemic.The only reason guys like St.Louis and the Sedins are able to win Art Rosses is because there is a clear lack of TOP players in this league , not because of parity.Guys like Gretzky , Lemieux wouldn't have let this happen in a million years.They were always parity once you get into 3rd/4th in scoring and below , which is now 1st and below because the lack of top players.
Generalizing about how younger guys like myself view the league is fair. However, I can easily argue that the lack of many Europeans and Russians in the NHL contributed to an easier time for some players winning awards, and that due to being born in that era, you are biased towards it.

The parity is a lot stronger in today's day and age, and it's not fair to punish players for it. When now, other than a few exceptions (Radulov comes to mind), there is no one who could even come close to challenging for awards or top-10 finishes that is outside of the NHL.

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02-13-2012, 05:14 PM
  #837
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Yeah, true. Sorry to sort of call you out on it. You more or less mentioned it in passing and were jumped on by about 5 other GMs.
No worries. I also stated that he was the best defensive defenceman of his generation, and the discussion that ensue, especially with Nalyd's post, made me realize I might have underrated Eddie Shore defensively. So overall, it was a worthy conversation.

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02-13-2012, 05:14 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Generalizing about how younger guys like myself view the league is fair. However, I can easily argue that the lack of many Europeans and Russians in the NHL contributed to an easier time for some players winning awards, and that due to being born in that era, you are biased towards it.

The parity is a lot stronger in today's day and age, and it's not fair to punish players for it. When now, other than a few exceptions (Radulov comes to mind), there is no one who could even come close to challenging for awards or top-10 finishes that is outside of the NHL.
so you are saying a prime-Jagr , a prime Guy Lafleur , a prime-Bobby Orr or Esposito with Orr , a pre-first-retirement Lemieux , a Wayne Gretzky , a Gordie Howe wouldn't easily win Art Rosses if they were in the league today , because of the europeens ( which really , are the Sedins , Malkin and Ovechkin since they are the only one competing for the trophy ) ?

I just strongly disagree if that's your conclusion.

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02-13-2012, 05:15 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
how can you of all people not see that the upper echelon is one of the weakest in history?

Of course the 5th and 6th guys and so are as strong as ever , but as far as top 3 in the league is concerned the last decade was pretty poor if you ask me.
Other than Gretzky and Lemieux (edit: And Orr and a few years of Howe) who were historical freaks, what makes today's top players any worse than the top players of any other era? Ovechkin's 2007-08 is one of the best seasons by a player not named Gretzky or Lemieux that I have ever seen.

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02-13-2012, 05:16 PM
  #840
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how can you of all people not see that the upper echelon is one of the weakest in history?

Of course the 5th and 6th guys and so are as strong as ever , but as far as top 3 in the league is concerned the last decade was pretty poor if you ask me.
2000-2004 perhaps. other than that, no, I don't agree.

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02-13-2012, 05:18 PM
  #841
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Other than Gretzky and Lemieux who were historical freaks, what makes today's top players any worse than the top players of any other era? Ovechkin's 2007-08 is one of the best seasons by a player not named Gretzky or Lemieux that I have ever seen.
their lack of ability to do it year after year , like Lafleur and Jagr.

I was not overly impress with his 65 goals to be honest , it was a very good season but clearly this guy wasn't going to last long at this rate , he had no true elite hockey IQ and all he did was hit mindlessly and shot from everywhere.They were no intelligence in his play.( and that was probably the best season of all 11 since Jagr so...)

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02-13-2012, 05:18 PM
  #842
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ahah see what I meant guys , even an ATD GM from this age range is touched by this epidemic.The only reason guys like St.Louis and the Sedins are able to win Art Rosses is because there is a clear lack of TOP players in this league , not because of parity.Guys like Gretzky , Lemieux wouldn't have let this happen in a million years.They were always parity once you get into 3rd/4th in scoring and below , which is now 1st and below because the lack of top players.
I think it's a case that this current generations greats are still very young, leaving the door for the Sedins to dominate the scoreboard for 3 years. I really don't think you should expect to see another Gretzky or Lemieux with the fire-wagon hockey of the 1980's no longer existing.

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02-13-2012, 05:20 PM
  #843
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I was not overly impress with his 65 goals to be honest , it was a very good season but clearly this guy wasn't going to last long at this rate , he had no true elite hockey IQ and all he did was hit mindlessly and shot from everywhere.They were no intelligence in his play.
Sounds a lot like Phil Esposito?

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02-13-2012, 05:22 PM
  #844
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2000-2004 perhaps. other than that, no, I don't agree.
staying healthy enough to win titles is part of the game , Crosby , Ovechkin & Malkin were clearly the best but they didn't managed to win TWO scoring titles yet ( even though thank god my favorite of the bunch Malkin will probably do it and stop this none-sense ) They let guys like the Sedins twins (which are great players but come on) win titles during their reign.It's just ridiculous.

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02-13-2012, 05:24 PM
  #845
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clearly this guy wasn't going to last long at this rate , he had no true elite hockey IQ and all he did was hit mindlessly and shot from everywhere.
getting into position to get a lot of shots on goal is a skill, you know.

if it was that easy, everyone would have done it.

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02-13-2012, 05:25 PM
  #846
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I think it's a case that this current generations greats are still very young, leaving the door for the Sedins to dominate the scoreboard for 3 years. I really don't think you should expect to see another Gretzky or Lemieux with the fire-wagon hockey of the 1980's no longer existing.
Why not? If Lemieux was entering the league today , he would comfortably win scoring titles even if he plays only 60 games per season.Of course the 80s let players score more points if you look at numbers , but it doesn't change anything as far as dominating other guys.

One day another Lemieux/Gretzky will come along , and all people with this kind of mentality will be forced to admit the top level was not very good for a good decade.

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02-13-2012, 05:26 PM
  #847
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Reen...if you demand a high hockey IQ then you can't bash the Sedins. They are pure hockey IQ with average physical abilities. You're contradicting yourself!

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02-13-2012, 05:26 PM
  #848
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getting into position to get a lot of shots on goal is a skill, you know.

if it was that easy, everyone would have done it.
yeah , fine , Ovechkin season was good , but one good season isn't enough , he didn't managed to win another title.That's a big part of my point.I don't look at this year by year , I look at this as an era.This era is weak at the top level.

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02-13-2012, 05:27 PM
  #849
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so you are saying a prime-Jagr , a prime Guy Lafleur , a prime-Bobby Orr or Esposito with Orr , a pre-first-retirement Lemieux , a Wayne Gretzky , a Gordie Howe wouldn't easily win Art Rosses if they were in the league today , because of the europeens ( which really , are the Sedins , Malkin and Ovechkin since they are the only one competing for the trophy ) ?

I just strongly disagree if that's your conclusion.
Ah..so we are comparing the freaks of nature to the modern era. It's not just trophies though. Finishes in statistical categories often have a European/Russian flavour. I'll touch on it more when other guys from the modern era are selected. However, look at some of the top guys in the NHL today and of the past five seasons. Malkin, Ovechkin, Sedin's, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Alfredsson, Lidstrom, etc. are names that immediately come to my mind.

When all of the guys that you mentioned played, the league had barely any non-NA's in it..and even them didn't have that many top notch Americans. Our sport has grown globally to where Canada, the United States, Russia, Sweden, Finland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic have put out several top notch players in the last two decades.

Canada: Sakic, Yzerman, Brodeur, etc.
USA: Chelios, Modano, Leetch, etc.
Russia: Fedorov, Bure, Datsyuk, etc.
Sweden: Lidstrom, Sundin, Alfredsson, etc.
Finland: Selanne and some other very solid goaltenders and forwards who will be taken in the ATD.
Slovakia: Chara, Hossa among others that will later be taken.
Czech Republic: Hasek, Jagr, etc.

There are even smaller nations like Germany and Switzerland who are starting to put out some really solid players. Guys like Eller and even young prospects like Girgensons from nations who were laughed at a few decades ago, are now becoming nations producing talents like these.

The game has grown globally, and with that the parity has come.

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02-13-2012, 05:27 PM
  #850
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Reen...if you demand a high hockey IQ then you can't bash the Sedins. They are pure hockey IQ with average physical abilities. You're contradicting yourself!
I don't demand anything else than proving your dominance over the competition for a couple of years , which nobody managed to do with assurance.

If the league is so tough , why did Lidstrom win all these Norrises? So the league can be weak at D but not at F? Where is the parity for Lidstrom?

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