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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-09-2012, 12:32 PM
  #126
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
surely you had to know what you were getting into. Cup counters think he's on the fringe of the top-10, and the MadArcands of the world might hesitate having him in a top-40. most of us are firmly in the middle section between those extremes but there is no doubt he's a very divisive goalie.
It's worth noting that my problem with Fuhr doesn't primarily lie in the fact that I think he gets too much credit for the Cup wins - I'm not denying he was good to very good in the early Oilers years; but rather in the fact that even if he was the best for those 5 years, he was the worst for 7 years immediately after, and that hardly averages into ATD starter. It's not all about the peak.

And sure BC, you can rely on Fuhr in playoffs - unfortunately, with his regular season play, the rest of the team has their work cut out for them to even make it (well, not in this ATD I guess ).

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02-09-2012, 12:35 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I would rather value a guy that puts up similar numbers offesively while being on another level defensively.
I think it's been shown by now that St Louis has a small but clear edge on offense.

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02-09-2012, 12:35 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
what about the GMs when they voted on the Vezina? you have to admit that is quite the conundrum.
Not really if you consider was tandeming most of that time, and the Oilers' didn't care about the regular season too much.

Also, if I recall correctly, during the 80s the voting got spread around like crazy.. I don't think any goalie had more than two post season all stars in the 80s. I could be wrong but I seem to remember that..

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02-09-2012, 12:37 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think it's been shown by now that St Louis has a small but clear edge on offense.
Which gets nullified by Alfredssons superior defense.

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02-09-2012, 12:38 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
It's worth noting that my problem with Fuhr doesn't primarily lie in the fact that I think he gets too much credit for the Cup wins - I'm not denying he was good to very good in the early Oilers years; but rather in the fact that even if he was the best for those 5 years, he was the worst for 7 years immediately after, and that hardly averages into ATD starter. It's not all about the peak.
Yeah, he did fall off due to shoulder/knee/drug issues for sure.. also every place he went a good goalie seemed to immediately emerge so he never got settled until he went to St. Louis.

Quote:
And sure BC, you can rely on Fuhr in playoffs - unfortunately, with his regular season play, the rest of the team has their work cut out for them to even make it (well, not in this ATD I guess ).
Yeah it is too bad Tony Esposito was taken or I could have had a real good regular season goalie too.

*ducks*

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02-09-2012, 12:39 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post

Also, if I recall correctly, during the 80s the voting got spread around like crazy.. I don't think any goalie had more than two post season all stars in the 80s. I could be wrong but I seem to remember that..
That's correct, but looking at the winners, it seems the 80s were the weakest decade of goaltending.

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Old
02-09-2012, 12:39 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Not really if you consider was tandeming most of that time, and the Oilers' didn't care about the regular season too much.

Also, if I recall correctly, during the 80s the voting got spread around like crazy.. I don't think any goalie had more than two post season all stars in the 80s. I could be wrong but I seem to remember that..
Patrick Roy closed out the decade with two first teams and one second team. But other than that, three goalies got one first and one second, Fuhr was one of them.

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02-09-2012, 12:44 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The "weak conference" thing might have some merit since teams play limited inter-conference games. But the "weak division" thing has very little merit, as teams play almost as many games against each team in the other divisions in their conference as they do against teams in their own division.

As for the "always had very good center" thing, that's true, but we have also all seen how much better St Louis's centers have historically played as soon as he was put on their line vs. when he was taken off.

If St Louis' size/strength were such a liability, you would expect that he would have performed poorly against real life opponents like Scott Stevens and Chris Pronger in the playoffs, would you not? There aren't any ATD defensemen stronger than those two.
In some seasons teams played 32 games against the other teams in their division. That's a lot.

Yep, St. Louis is very good at adjusting his game to his linemates and helping them succeed. I listed that as a strength of Alfredsson as well and I know that from watching him, but St. Louis may be even better in that area.

But it still helps to play with star linemates. Alfie's two best scoring seasons (05-06 and 07-08) came in the two regular seasons when he primarily played with two other star forwards, even though he was the team's best forward in those seasons.

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02-09-2012, 12:45 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
That's correct, but looking at the winners, it seems the 80s were the weakest decade of goaltending.
I don't know about that.. it is hard to tell whether it was the weakest decade of goaltending or if that was a result of the firewagon hockey.

Maybe a bit of both depending on the case.


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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Patrick Roy closed out the decade with two first teams and one second team. But other than that, three goalies got one first and one second, Fuhr was one of them.
Ah, I knew it was something along those lines.

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02-09-2012, 12:49 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I don't know about that.. it is hard to tell whether it was the weakest decade of goaltending or if that was a result of the firewagon hockey.

Maybe a bit of both depending on the case.
I think something has to be said for how Roy and Belfour settled down voting while the wide open play continued.

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02-09-2012, 12:49 PM
  #136
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Since we're talking about career PPG numbers, shouldn't we also talk about playoff points per game?

Highest career playoff PPG since 1997 (the true start of the dead puck era):

1. Alexander Ovechkin 1.35 in 37 games
2. Sydney Crosby 1.32 in 62 games
3. Jaromir Jagr 1.20 in 76 games
4. Evgeni Malkin 1.18 in 62 games
5. Peter Forsberg 1.17 in 123 games
6. Martin St Louis 1.08 in 63 games
7. undrafted 1.07 in 45 games
8. Joe Sakic 1.04 in 138 games (remember this cuts off his Smythe in 96)
9. 3 undrafted tied at 1.00, all with 43-46 games
...
16. Iginla 0.90 in 52 games
28. Alfredsson 0.82 in 107 games
36. Hossa 0.76 in 127 games


Hossa was over a ppg in the playoffs only once in his career - 2007-08 when he played on Crosby's wing.

St Louis was under a ppg in the playoffs only once in his career - when he still scored 4 goals (with 0 assists) in a 5 game first round loss in 2006.

Martin St Louis maintained his high PPG average in the playoffs, no matter who his center was. His 2 most well known centers did not maintain their averages without St Louis on their line.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-09-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 12:51 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I think something has to be said for how Roy and Belfour settled down voting while the wide open play continued.
Maybe, but by that point who out of the best 80s goalies were still playing at their best to compete with them?

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02-09-2012, 12:55 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I don't know about that.. it is hard to tell whether it was the weakest decade of goaltending or if that was a result of the firewagon hockey.

Maybe a bit of both depending on the case.
It's not about the average GAA or anything. Just that there were a whole bunch of (relatively) mediocre goalies making allstar teams, which you obviously wouldn't see in a strong era for goaltending. Look through some of the first and second allstars in net, you could probably name 5 or 6 of them here because they're so unimportant historically that they have no hope of being drafted.

Look at the past decade in contrast. I wouldn't call the 2000's a golden era for goaltending, but you'll notice that most of the goalies making the allstar team were at least high-end starters for a number of years. There's a one-year wonder or two like you'll find in any era (STEVE MASON YOU ARE TERRIBLE), but not nearly to the degree you see in the 80's.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-09-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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Old
02-09-2012, 12:59 PM
  #139
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Maybe, but by that point who out of the best 80s goalies were still playing at their best to compete with them?
No point asking questions that require me to break the rules to answer.

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02-09-2012, 01:02 PM
  #140
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Guys I posted this last year too, but wanted to post it again for the GM that drafted Frank Fredrickson. I found some intresting quotes about Frank Fredrickson while I was reading "Cyclone Taylor A hockey Legend"


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-Typical of the new breed was the rookie over there in Victoria, with Lester Patrick's Aristcrats. He was Frank Fredrickson, the twenty-five year old from Winnipeg, the superlative center of that city's Falcons, who was hailed on the prairies as the game's brightest star. That assessment was certaintly not far off, if off at all.
Quote:
-The Vancouver-Victoria game was scheduled for New Year's Day in 1921. It was billed as the battle of the World's Greatest Professionel (Cyclone Taylor) versus the World's Greatest Amateur (Frank Fredrickson). Victoria won the game 3-1 as Frank Fredrickson scored 2 goals.
Quote:
-"Frank Fredrickson was about as fine a player as I've ever seen. He was fast, shifty, smart, and had a wonderful shot

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02-09-2012, 01:04 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Guys I posted this last year too, but wanted to post it again for the GM that drafted Frank Fredrickson. I found some intresting quotes about Frank Fredrickson while I was reading "Cyclone Taylor A hockey Legend"
Thanks JFA, great stuff!

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:25 PM
  #142
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Actually IIRC, Ovechkin has always played on the left side. At least I can never recall him playing on the right side when I've seen the Canes play the Caps since he's been on their team, or when I've watched him on TV. So Alfredsson's 103 would be the best behind Jagr at that point for that season. Hossa's 92 points would be 89% of that point total that season.
the vs. #2 numbers are based on all players, not just RWs.

what I was saying is that Jagr was a particularly high-scoring #2* in 2006 and using him as the comparable drives everyone else's score down. Using Ovechkin's total as the comparable makes more sense as that's where the pack really starts.

*In the history section you will still find a few guys who think he was just a high-scoring #2

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Not really if you consider was tandeming most of that time, and the Oilers' didn't care about the regular season too much.

Also, if I recall correctly, during the 80s the voting got spread around like crazy.. I don't think any goalie had more than two post season all stars in the 80s. I could be wrong but I seem to remember that..
The devil's advocate side of it: wouldn't that make it easier for the best goalie in the world to stand out?

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah it is too bad Tony Esposito was taken or I could have had a real good regular season goalie too.
I don't have a horse in this race, but since JFA is not the confrontational type: it seems pretty foolish to ignore the level of play both goalies displayed in 868-886 regular season games and focus solely on 99-150 playoff games. And you'd have to focus REALLY hard on the latter to expect a better level of ATD performance from Fuhr.

JFA should really like where he's at right now.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since we're talking about career PPG numbers, shouldn't we also talk about playoff points per game?

Highest career playoff PPG since 1997 (the true start of the dead puck era):

1. Alexander Ovechkin 1.35 in 37 games
2. Sydney Crosby 1.32 in 62 games
3. Jaromir Jagr 1.20 in 76 games
4. Evgeni Malkin 1.18 in 62 games
5. Peter Forsberg 1.17 in 123 games
6. Martin St Louis 1.08 in 63 games
7. undrafted 1.07 in 45 games
8. Joe Sakic 1.04 in 138 games (remember this cuts off his Smythe in 96)
9. 3 undrafted tied at 1.00, all with 43-46 games
...
16. Iginla 0.90 in 52 games
28. Alfredsson 0.82 in 107 games
36. Hossa 0.76 in 127 games


Hossa was over a ppg in the playoffs only once in his career - 2007-08 when he played on Crosby's wing.

St Louis was under a ppg in the playoffs only once in his career - when he still scored 4 goals (with 0 assists) in a 5 game first round loss in 2006.

Martin St Louis maintained his high PPG average in the playoffs, no matter who his center was. His 2 most well known centers did not maintain their averages without St Louis on their line.
on the other hand, GP is a factor.

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Old
02-09-2012, 01:29 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
the vs. #2 numbers are based on all players, not just RWs.

what I was saying is that Jagr was a particularly high-scoring #2* in 2006 and using him as the comparable drives everyone else's score down. Using Ovechkin's total as the comparable makes more sense as that's where the pack really starts.

*In the history section you will still find a few guys who think he was just a high-scoring #2
Gotcha. Still thought you were talking about highest by RW position there. Figured you were simply eliminating Jagr from that conversation since his total was just that much higher then everyone elses to the point that a comparison would reflect poorly on them when it really shouldn't.

And yeah, I call the dude Hockey's answer to Manny being Manny for a reason. When he wants to bring it there's little that can stop him. And in that 05-06 season damn did he want to bring it.

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02-09-2012, 01:30 PM
  #144
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The devil's advocate side of it: wouldn't that make it easier for the best goalie in the world to stand out?
It would if they voted for the all star teams and Vezina based on playoff performance.. as it was he did as well as anyone not named Roy for a whole decade.


Quote:
I don't have a horse in this race, but since JFA is not the confrontational type: it seems pretty foolish to ignore the level of play both goalies displayed in 868-886 regular season games and focus solely on 99-150 playoff games. And you'd have to focus REALLY hard on the latter to expect a better level of ATD performance from Fuhr.

JFA should really like where he's at right now.
I was only kidding about it because Esposito is your horse.

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02-09-2012, 01:32 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
the vs. #2 numbers are based on all players, not just RWs.

what I was saying is that Jagr was a particularly high-scoring #2* in 2006 and using him as the comparable drives everyone else's score down. Using Ovechkin's total as the comparable makes more sense as that's where the pack really starts.
2006 is such a wacky year that it's hard to make heads or tails of it. The league shut down in 2005, half the players didn't even play, the rest played in leagues of varying competition. Then they come back in 2006 under completely different rules, scoring and powerplayers are through the roof.

2006 isn't as big an outlier year as 1930 (the league allowed the forward pass before the season then added offsides halfway through) or the 1944 and 1945 WW2 seasons. But there's a good case that 2006 is the 4th biggest single season outlier year of the NHL era.


Quote:
on the other hand, GP is a factor.
I included GP, but it's not like 63 games is a small sample size. GP in the playoffs has more to do with team strength than anything else. Should Hossa really get more credit for going from Pittsburgh to Detroit to Chicago right as each team was hitting its stride?

It's not like Tampa Bay was always a #1 seed beating up on low seeds in the early rounds, either.

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02-09-2012, 01:36 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I included GP, but it's not like 63 games is a small sample size. GP in the playoffs has more to do with team strength than anything else. Should Hossa really get more credit for going from Pittsburgh to Detroit to Chicago right as each team was hitting its stride?
well, more than if he was the #5/6 defenseman or a 3rd/4th liner. Some, but how much is up for debate. Being a very important player to good teams is obviously a plus.

It's harder to maintain good per-game stats over more games. Yes, 63 games is a good size but 100+ games is even better. Do I think that St. Louis would have 29 or fewer points in 64 more playoff games? Absolutely not, but the gap in playoff performance also isn't as large as the playoff PPG would suggest.

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02-09-2012, 01:38 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

It's not like Tampa Bay was always a #1 seed beating up on low seeds in the early rounds, either.
If anything the main issue I would have with looking at Hossa's per game playoff numbers is that he played injured in 1 of his 3 Finals runs

EDIT: 1 not 2

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02-09-2012, 01:42 PM
  #148
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If anything the main issue I would have with looking at Hossa's per game playoff numbers is that he played injured in 1 of his 3 Finals runs
This is a good point, but on the other hand, the best playoff performance of Hossa's career (by far) was spent getting centered by Sidney Crosby. Crosby, unlike Hossa, maintained a similar PPG no matter who he played with.

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02-09-2012, 01:45 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is a good point, but on the other hand, the best playoff performance of Hossa's career (by far) was spent getting centered by Sidney Crosby. Crosby, unlike Hossa, maintained a similar PPG no matter who he played with.
I don't know if it was ever confirmed for sure that he was injured in 2010, I think people just suspected it. Especially after he got injured shortly after the 2010-2011 season began. Probably safe to say his shoulder wasn't as healthy as it is currently.

Also, in the 2009 playoffs he got injured during the WC Finals vs. the Hawks (if memory serves, Andrew Ladd got credit for that one), so it wasn't a full playoff run either.

In other words, probably not as big a deal as I first made it out to be

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02-09-2012, 01:51 PM
  #150
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Thanks JFA, great stuff!
Hey no problem man, its not much but that still intresting for Cyclone Taylor to make a statement like that about Frank Fredrickson especially considering all the great players he played with over time. Obviously Cyclone thought very highly of Frank Fredrickson.

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