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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-09-2012, 06:06 PM
  #176
EagleBelfour
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With our eight selection, the 243rd overall in this year All-Time Draft, l'équipe nationale de France est fier de sélectionner, from Calgary, Canada, l'ailier gauche Paul Thompson


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02-09-2012, 06:11 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh... I tried to sell people on Starshinov's LW ability last time and nobody seemed to buy it. Did you find anything I didn't? I agree that if you can convert him to LW and he's credible there, he looks a lot better.
"In their game there were little adjustments, and playing on the left edge of (undrafted), knowing that Starshinov holds a stick in his left hand and it is more convenient to get the puck on the right, it became routine to roll off the bench and onto the ice, simulating a threat to the net, giving a pass to his center for his convenient hand."

Source: ngif.net/?p=78

Interesting tidbit from spartak-history.net: he was apparently courted by the Red Wings. And apparently the Swedes shot a documentary film about him. Would love to see that.

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02-09-2012, 06:17 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Great, great discussion on Hossa, St-Louis, Iginla and Alfredsson. I was overrating the offensive difference between the four of them. I'll still take them in the order they got selected, but the difference is less than I first thought off.



Anatoli Firsov is also eligibable to play centre, although I wouldn't see the reason to do it, with the premium on LW.



And I'm here. Thought I had traded the pick. I'll select soon.
Oh yes, I got sold in Alffy and Hossa as already borderline HHOFers over the past year on the HOH board. If the general perception was that they are way behind, I agree the gap isnt all that big. That's different than saying there is no gap though.

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02-09-2012, 06:18 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With our eight selection, the 243rd overall in this year All-Time Draft, l'équipe nationale de France est fier de sélectionner, from Calgary, Canada, l'ailier gauche Paul Thompson

Technically this was 5 min after your clock ended. No biggie. Pick coming up shortly

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02-09-2012, 06:23 PM
  #180
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another thing in favor of alfredsson over hossa is the fact he was a ''franchise player-lite'' , I think you have to give some points to players staying for the same franchise and contributing to your team , and not give points to player who might give up on your team to act liek a mercenary , eve nthough at least hossa's mercenary style was to get a cup and not necessarily money , which is a + against other kind of mercenarys.

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02-09-2012, 06:23 PM
  #181
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Technically this was 5 min after your clock ended. No biggie. Pick coming up shortly
Yea, I went playing hockey after work instead of directly coming on my computer. For my defence, I didn't thought I would select at this spot.

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02-09-2012, 06:25 PM
  #182
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I'm not so sure I care what they did in consecutive seasons. If two guys had identical finishes and percentages in their 5 best years I don't think it would matter to me that one guy did it consecutively (Yzerman?) and the other did it in a more Sakician fashion.



the goal is to be consistent and compare players to a fairly static standard of dominance. at least that is my goal. You use #2 and the reason is because #1 is too often highly variable. But so is #2!

------------------------

By the way, TDMM, can you admit something? These four RWs are closer than you probably thought yesterday.
It's a matter of consistency. What expectation can you have of a guy playing at his best for you if he couldn't do it on a consistent basis in his career? Iginla was great in 2001-02, but not so much in 2000-01 or 2002-03. He's been more consistent post-lockout, but he still throws in the random 60 point season, and even in his better years his scoring disappears for stretches.

What added consistency do you get by changing from #2 to #3, back to #2, then to #4?

I didn't choose #2 just for consistency. I chose it because it allows for the #1 guy to get a bonus if he led by a large amount, thus not making all scoring titles equal.

Also for the purpose of using for other leagues, all you need to know is the #2 scorer in a given year and league and the score of the player you are looking at. You don't need a top 10 scorers list, or a goals/game breakdown, or anything else. More data does allow for more context of course.

Of course different leagues bring in as many variables as different eras, but the numbers were never meant to be a substitute for knowledge anyway.

How inconsistent is #2? How inconsistent is #3? Inconsistent compared to what exactly?

How often do you use a different # over the whole of NHL history?

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02-09-2012, 06:28 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Yea, I went playing hockey after work instead of directly coming on my computer.
Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not..... hilarious either way!

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02-09-2012, 06:29 PM
  #184
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Swamp Devils add much needed size up front with

Duke Keats, C

Keats is big, mean, a great playmaker and stick handler, a strong backchecker, and "the brainiest pivot" Lester Patrick had ever seen. He's also a very slow skater.

He'll stay back and cover defensively while my speedy wings go on the attack, and also act as the trailer on the play.

In the offensive zone, he adds some much needed muscle.

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02-09-2012, 06:31 PM
  #185
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Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not..... hilarious either way!
Lol, well I meant: ''I went playing hockey after work instead of directly sitting down in front of my computer.''

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02-09-2012, 06:33 PM
  #186
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A while back I tried to trade up to get Luc Robataille, because I figured Luc and Keats would make a boffo second line.

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02-09-2012, 06:36 PM
  #187
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A while back I tried to trade up to get Luc Robataille, because I figured Luc and Keats would make a boffo second line.
I literally had no backup plan after Keats and was trying to trade up for him earlier. Glad to get him here.

He's not as good as Fredrickson but perhaps he's better suited to my team needs.

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02-09-2012, 06:44 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Swamp Devils add much needed size up front with

Duke Keats, C

Keats is big, mean, a great playmaker and stick handler, a strong backchecker, and "the brainiest pivot" Lester Patrick had ever seen. He's also a very slow skater.

He'll stay back and cover defensively while my speedy wings go on the attack, and also act as the trailer on the play.

In the offensive zone, he adds some much needed muscle.
I'm not sure if this is where guys who played their prime years in the WCHL should go, yet. By the time he hit the NHL in his early 30's, he fizzled.

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02-09-2012, 06:49 PM
  #189
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I'm not sure if this is where guys who played their prime years in the WCHL should go, yet. By the time he hit the NHL in his early 30's, he fizzled.
He finished 9th and 10th in scoring in the consolidated NHL at the ages of 31 and 32 (quite old for the day). Some fizzling...

There are going to be a lot of scoring line glue players with no top 10 finishes and Keats has two of them - both after his prime, which was spent in a league full of NHL quality players.

We talk about how 1926 is when the talent first became concentrated in the NHL. Why 1926? That's when the WCHL (where Keats spent his prime) folded - the PCHA folded a couple of year's earlier

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02-09-2012, 06:51 PM
  #190
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- ''You would have thought he had a nail in the end of his stick, the way he could carry that puck around. He was that good.'' - Lloyd McIntyre, a teammate of Keats

- ''Duke is the possessor of more hockey grey matter than any man who ever played the game'' - X

- ''Gordon Keats was the best player of all time'' - Lloyd McIntyre

- ''Keats was the brainiest pivot that ever strapped on a skate because he could organize plays and make passes every time he starts.'' - Lester Patrick

- ''He made thirty perfect passes to his wingmates one night'' - X

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02-09-2012, 06:55 PM
  #191
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I think jarek's ridiculous overselling of Keats last time (Keats better than Max Bentley? Lol) really soured people on him. He's a legit top 200 player IMO who goes a bit later because there are so many good centers

(thanks EB)

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02-09-2012, 06:58 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think jarek's ridiculous overselling of Keats last time (Keats better than Max Bentley? Lol) really soured people on him. He's a legit top 200 player IMO who goes a bit later because there are so many good centers

(thanks EB)
No worries. I love Duke Keats. I took the decision of taking players I never had in all the drafts I've been in, or else Duke Keats would of been in the mix for this selection, no question ask.

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02-09-2012, 07:00 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
- ''You would have thought he had a nail in the end of his stick, the way he could carry that puck around. He was that good.'' - Lloyd McIntyre, a teammate of Keats

- ''Duke is the possessor of more hockey grey matter than any man who ever played the game'' - X

- ''Gordon Keats was the best player of all time'' - Lloyd McIntyre

- ''Keats was the brainiest pivot that ever strapped on a skate because he could organize plays and make passes every time he starts.'' - Lester Patrick

- ''He made thirty perfect passes to his wingmates one night'' - X
Heh, when Keats' teammate calls hin the best player of all time, it's hard to take hin seriously, but it's pretty clear he was a superstar

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02-09-2012, 07:04 PM
  #194
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Heh, when Keats' teammate calls hin the best player of all time, it's hard to take hin seriously, but it's pretty clear he was a superstar
Obviously, but it's the reason I specify his link with Keats. The other three quotes are worth far more to me, both Lester Patrick and X are important hockey figure.

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02-09-2012, 07:10 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He finished 9th and 10th in scoring in the consolidated NHL at the ages of 31 and 32 (quite old for the day). Some fizzling...

There are going to be a lot of scoring line glue players with no top 10 finishes and Keats has two of them - both after his prime, which was spent in a league full of NHL quality players.

We talk about how 1926 is when the talent first became concentrated in the NHL. Why 1926? That's when the WCHL (where Keats spent his prime) folded - the PCHA folded a couple of year's earlier
Fair enough, and maybe I'm sure sour on the name after Jarek's from last year - but the fact remains he played in the second-best league in North America in his prime. He only lasted 80-something games in the NHL.

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02-09-2012, 07:27 PM
  #196
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Fair enough, and maybe I'm sure sour on the name after Jarek's from last year - but the fact remains he played in the second-best league in North America in his prime. He only lasted 80-something games in the NHL.
And that's 80 something games more than a lot of players after the age of 30 at the time. After the PCHA folded (mostly into the WCHL), the WCHL was the NHL's equal for a few years. The NHL wasn't the undisputed best league in the world until 1926 - the WCHL and PCHA were considered on a similar level

Keats was indicted into the HHOF in 1958. The HHOF didn't start indicting en masse (including questionable players) until the 1960s

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02-09-2012, 07:27 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think jarek's ridiculous overselling of Keats last time (Keats better than Max Bentley? Lol) really soured people on him. He's a legit top 200 player IMO who goes a bit later because there are so many good centers

(thanks EB)
You mean he's not the Bobby Clarke of the pre-war era?

Yeah, he's a gritty playmaking center who is solid but unspectacular defensively and a good quality second liner.

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02-09-2012, 07:28 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Yeah, he's a gritty playmaking center who is solid but unspectacular defensively and a good quality second liner.
You resumed Keats pretty well.

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02-09-2012, 07:32 PM
  #199
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02-09-2012, 07:32 PM
  #200
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
You mean he's not the Bobby Clarke of the pre-war era?

Yeah, he's a gritty playmaking center who is solid but unspectacular defensively and a good quality second liner.
Or a quality 1st line glue guy IF your talent is on wing (and he's the third best member of the line).

He's definitely a second liner if counted on to lead his line

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