Honourable mentions: Marcel Dionne (1971), Brian Bellows (1982), Kirk Muller (1984), Brendan Shanahan (1987), Trevor Linden (1988), Petr Nedved (1990), Alexei Yashin (1992), Chris Pronger (1993), Patrick Marleau (1997), Daniel Sedin (1999), Dany Heatley (2000), Jason Spezza (2001), Eric Staal (2003), Evgeni Malkin (2004), Bobby Ryan (2005), Drew Doughty (2008)
I'm going with Marcel Dionne here. Park would be second. Malkin could eventually take first.
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3. Scott Niedermayer (1991)
Honourable mentions: Reggie Leach (1970), Mike Foligno (1979), Denis Savard (1980), Bobby Carpenter (1981), Pat Lafontaine (1983), Ed Olczyk (1984), Glen Wesley (1987), Keith Primeau (1990), Olli Jokinen (1997), Henrik Sedin (1999), Jay Bouwmeester (2002), Jonathan Toews (2006)
Denis Savard for me. I'd take Lafontaine over Niedermayer as well.
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10. Bobby Holik (1989)
Honourable mentions: Mark Napier (1977), Martin Lapointe (1991), Jocelyn Thibault (1993), Radek Dvorak (1995)
Teemu Selanne, no contest. I'm going to side with the poster above me and assume you just missed him.
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15. Mike Bossy (1977)
Honourable mentions: Bob MacMillan (1972), Ian Turnbull (1973), Brad McCrimmon (1979), Al MacInnis (1981), Joe Sakic (1987), Alexei Kovalev (1991), Dainus Zubrus (1996), Erik Karlsson (2008)
This is a dead heat between Bossy and Sakic. I'd side with Sakic due to his longevity and defensive play.
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16. Dave Andreychuk (1982)
Honourable mentions: Tim Young (1975), Al Secord (1978), Bryan Marchment (1987), Markus Naslund (1991), Martin Biron (1995)
Could go to either Andreychuk or Naslund. Naslund with the better peak, Andreychuk with career.
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19. Olaf Kolzig (1989)
Honourable mentions: Craig Ramsay (1971), Keith Tkachuk (1990), Martin Straka (1992), Robyn Regehr (1998), Ryan Getzlaf (2003)
Keith Tkachuk here for me.
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24. Sean Burke (1985)
Honourable mentions: Doug Jarvis (1975), Gary Leeman (1982), Stephane Fiset (1988), Daniel Briere (1996), Mike Richards (2003)
Personally I go for Doug Jarvis here. Burke is a solid option though.
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29. Stephane Richer (1984)
Honourable mentions: Danny Gare (1974), Teppo Numminen (1986), Jonathan Cheechoo (1998), Niklas Kronwall (2000), Mike Green (2004)
I'm taking Teppo Numminen.
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31. Felix Potvin (1990)
Honourable mentions: John Tucker (1981)
I go with Tiger Williams here, who you didn't even give an HM for some reason.
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33. John LeClair (1987)
Honourable mentions: Bob Nystrom (1972), Dave Lewis (1973), John Tonelli (1977), Pat Riggan (1979), Valeri Bure (1992), David Vyborny (1993), Blair Betts (1998), Nick Schultz (2000), Loui Eriksson (2003), James Neal (2005)
LeClair is probable, but I have to give a shout to Tonelli who I think is at least very close.
Honourable mentions: Thomas Gradin (1976), Ken Wregget (1982), Rob Zamuner (1989), Mike Ribeiro (1998), Patrice Bergeron (2003)
Could be my Canucks bias, but I like Thomas Gradin here.
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47. Kristian Huselius (1997)
Honourable mentions: Bob Corkum (1986), Chris Therien (1990), Yanic Perreault (1991), Andrei Nikolishin (1992), Matt Carle (2003)
Nobody here truly stands out. Could be Chris Therien.
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50. Steve Chiasson
Honourable mentions: Richard Park (1994), Milan Lucic (2006)
His career is only a few years old but I still take Lucic here pretty easily.
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54. Chris Osgood (1991)
Honourable mentions: Andreas Lilja (2000), Duncan Keith (2002)
Osgood for now, but could be Keith by the end of his career.
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55. Jacques Cloutier (1979)
Honourable mentions: Sergei Zholtok (1992), Antoine Vermette (2000), Jason Pominville (2001)
Going with old Capitals star Bengt-Ake Gustafsson here. He should at least be an HM.
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57. Jyrki Lumme (1986)
Honourable mentions: Jay McClement (2001), Matthew Stajan (2002)
I'd take Lumme here, but you need to HM Keith Crowder and Troy Murray who were each better than McClement or Stajan.
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58. Rick Wamsley (1979)
Honourable mentions: Steve Konowalchuk (1991), Jiri Hudler (2002)
Unspectacular draft spot. I might take Konowalchuk.
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61. Alex Goligoski (2004)
Honourable mentions: Jason Woolley (1989), Johnny Boychuk (2002), Maxim Lapierre (2003)
Craig "Shinpads" Ludwig, easy.
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62. Kris Draper (1989)
Honourable mentions: Jeff Norton (1984), Paul Martin (2000), David Backes (2003), Kristopher Letang (2005)
This will be Kris Letang in under five years.
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64. Brad Richards (1998)
Honourable mentions: Kent Nilsson (1976), Tim Cheveldae (1986), Fredrik Modin (1994)
Neck and neck with Kent Nilsson for me.
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68. Tony Amonte (1988)
Honourable mentions: Craig Rivet (1992), Jarkko Ruutu (1998)
Either Amonte or Morrow. Tony had the career numbers but Morrow was a rock on the dynasty Islanders as well as a key member of the 1980 Miracle on Ice.
Oh, some more strange possible outliers to consider:
58: Milan Novy over Wamsley/Konowalchuk
159: Jiri Hrdina over Guy Hebert
201: Slava Fetisov (he was drafted twice, 145th in 1983 and 201st in 1978)
238: Vladimir Krutov/Helmut Balderis over Dan McGillis
252: Tony Hand over German Titov
I'm going with Marcel Dionne here. Park would be second. Malkin could eventually take first.
I'm one of those people who prefers an elite defenceman over an elite forward given the rarity of the latter and Park ranks higher amongst his peers than Dionne does amongst his. It's debatable though, but Park's superior all-star voting record and excellent playoff performances (compared to Dionne's well-known post-season struggles) gives him the advantage for me.
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Denis Savard for me. I'd take Lafontaine over Niedermayer as well.
See my first response about the difference between an elite forward and elite defenceman. Niedermayer's unprecedented six different championships/gold medal record and his status as the league's best player at his position for a brief period of time (2004-2007) is what wins this for him in my estimation. Was Savard ever even a top two player at his position? I mean he was a Second All-Star in 1983 but I think Peter Stastny kind of got robbed that year (more goals and points than Savard). I know that he had the misfortune to bee going up against Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Stastny, etc. in the heavily contested position of centre in the 1980s, but it's an important consideration. Niedermayer's Norris, multiple all-star team selections (three First Teams too) and four Stanley Cup titles represents just too much value to overlook. Lafontaine's 1993 season might be the best one out of the group though.
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Teemu Selanne, no contest. I'm going to side with the poster above me and assume you just missed him.
I did. I knew there was going to be one or two really obvious guys I missed in my efforts to go through most of the picks. Apologies for skimming over the really obvious.
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This is a dead heat between Bossy and Sakic. I'd side with Sakic due to his longevity and defensive play.
This is simply a matter of peak versus career value. I tend to weigh both about equally but Bossy was the best pure goal-scorer in NHL history and won two more Stanley Cups, so I went with him. Both him and Sakic were multiple First All-Star Team selections and have a Conn Smythe each. You could go either way really.
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Could go to either Andreychuk or Naslund. Naslund with the better peak, Andreychuk with career.
Naslund tapered off pretty quickly relative to a lot of his contemporaries (his last PPG season at age 32) so I went with Andreychuk. He gets additional value for the Stanley Cup championship with Tampa Bay, during which he was a decent contributor and certainly not a passenger. Naslund's 2003 season was the best one between the two but I think Andreychuk's overall career value comes out on top here. It's difficult to overlook 640 regular-season goals and the league's all-time PP goal mark (274) no matter how good an individual season is from the other guy. Neither was a particularly impressive post-season performer.
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Keith Tkachuk here for me.
I could flip a coin here but Kolzig's career value as a goaltender and his 2000 season (Vezina, First All-Star Team) and role in basically carrying the Capitals to the 1998 Finals makes me prefer him. Tkachuk's well-known playoff struggles represents a pattern in my list: I prefer to take the more proven post-season player. Few dominant regular-season players experienced as severe a drop-off in play once the playoffs rolled around as Tkachuk.
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Personally I go for Doug Jarvis here. Burke is a solid option though.
Got to go with the borderline star level goaltender here over the third-line checking centre IMO.
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I'm taking Teppo Numminen.
There are few people you'll meet who have as much of an appreciation for the extremely solid, unheralded, and too often overlooked consistent play of Teppo Numminen as me, but I think you have to go with Richer here. 50 goal scorer, 421 career goals, two Stanley Cup titles, and was instrumental in New Jersey's first championship in 1995 with over a PPG in the post-season (21 points in 19 games). Until he went 11 games with 1 point in his last three playoff series -- all on the wrong side of 30 -- Richer was a very good playoff performer. Numminen was a great defenceman but I don't think his career value is quite as good. It's seriously, seriously close though and I had to strongly think this one over.
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I go with Tiger Williams here, who you didn't even give an HM for some reason.
And I'm a Leafs fan.
Have to go with Felix the Cat though. Was an elite level goaltender, or close to it, in 1993 and 1994, and had excellent career value. Plus I'm just not as big of a Tiger Williams fan as most. Two thirty-plus goal campaigns but was a 15-20 goal man in most other seasons. A good player but not quite as good as a goalie that wins 266 games and puts up 32 shutouts with several All-Star Game appearances.
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LeClair is probable, but I have to give a shout to Tonelli who I think is at least very close.
I don't think this one is remotely close actually. LeClair was the league's pre-eminent forward for a full five or six seasons: between 1995 and 1999 he accrued two First All-Star Team and three Second All-Star Team selections while putting up three consecutive fifty-plus goal seasons, followed by two forty-plus goal seasons. All of this was accomplished in the heart of the dead puck era. He was also instrumental in the Americans' surprising win at the 1996 World Cup with six goals and ten points in seven games. Just a dominant, dominant peak. Tonelli has two Second Team selections which is good, but not quite up to par, and he also played during a weaker period for left wingers IMO.
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Gotta go with Langenbrunner.
A second-liner over a Vezina finalist? I can't agree with that.
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Could be my Canucks bias, but I like Thomas Gradin here.
Kozlov was basically Gradin spread out over many more seasons. Virtually identical peak but Kozlov easily wins out on career value here. We're talking about 16 seasons of play versus 9 and that's not really close to me.
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Nobody here truly stands out. Could be Chris Therien.
Huselius at least has a couple of borderline PPG seasons. Therien was a fifth defenceman for the most part.
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His career is only a few years old but I still take Lucic here pretty easily.
A LOT of people unfortunately forget just how talented an offensive defenceman Chiasson was before his untimely demise. A very good minutes eater and very productive on the PP throughout his career. Lucic should pass him very soon but I prefer to base my selections on on-paper accomplishments, not probable ones. So for now I took Chiasson.
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Osgood for now, but could be Keith by the end of his career.
Almost certainly will be Keith by the end of his career. Osgood's three Stanley Cup titles, 400+ career wins, Vezina runner-up, Second All-Star Team selection, and ranking on Detroit's goaltending list in virtually every category make him the choice based on career value. I also think that Keith's Norris season was a bit of an outlier, but we'll see if he can string together a few more All-Star Team worthy seasons. He should take this by the time he hangs them up.
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Going with old Capitals star Bengt-Ake Gustafsson here. He should at least be an HM.
Duly noted.
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I'd take Lumme here, but you need to HM Keith Crowder and Troy Murray who were each better than McClement or Stajan.
Duly noted.
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Unspectacular draft spot. I might take Konowalchuk.
Over a goalie with 204 career wins who was highly-regarded at one point?
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Craig "Shinpads" Ludwig, easy.
Another unfortunate omission of mine.
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This will be Kris Letang in under five years.
Without question. He should have a few All-Star Team or Norris nominations by then if he continues his high-level play.
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Neck and neck with Kent Nilsson for me.
REALLY tough decision but based on career value I think the choice is clear now.
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Either Amonte or Morrow. Tony had the career numbers but Morrow was a rock on the dynasty Islanders as well as a key member of the 1980 Miracle on Ice.
Another tough decision.
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Toss-up between Knuble and Keith Carney.
Was never a big Carney fan and I think Knuble's career production and consistency warrants him a spot here.
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Gonna go with Horcoff here.
Never been a huge Horcoff fan. I think that he's a glorified second or third-line centre who has been overrated based on one season where he got ice-time and offensive opportunities that he would never have found on a superior team. History is littered with players who put up respectable totals on poor teams because they had few other options.
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Give me lube.
I just can't overlook Salo's role in Sweden's 1994 Olympic victory. The 2002 game against Belarus has really detracted from what was an outstanding career, both in the NHL, and on the international stage. Never a Vezina type quality goaltender, but in the next tier down for a lot of seasons on some middling Edmonton teams. Multiple time All-Star Game participant.
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I agree, but I laughed at the absurdity of this one.
Because Tretiak never played a minute in the NHL?
It's kind of hilarious that Miller was selected in the same spot of the draft though.
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Going with Juice for this one.
Tucker's still far ahead in terms of career value IMO. Bieksa's been healthy this season but he's had major issues staying in the line-up since he broke into the league.
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Laperriere had more hockey in the broken cartilage hanging from what used to be his face than Karpovtsev had in 100 lifetimes.
Maybe. But a lot of people forget just how good Karpovtsev's 1999 season with Toronto was. He was borderline Norris worthy and won the league +/- title (unofficially - he was one or two games off from qualifying). Laperriere was a good third or fourth liner but I think peak winis out in this head-to-head.
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This will be Mike Smith before too long.
If he plays like this every season I agree. Smith's been quality for Phoenix if nothing else. Has more than adequately filled the void created by Bryzgalov.
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Pahlsson for his 2007 playoffs alone.
Tough selection and I definitely took that into consideration.
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Buchberger.
A career fourth-liner and glorified goon over a decent starter with a few solid seasons and an All-Star Game appearance?
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Will be Martin Erat within two years if it isn't already.
Agreed. I think that White is a bigger threat to this slot if his play with Detroit is any indication of his future seasons though.
It's strange how #13 seems to have a weaker output than many of the numbers below it. I remember a tongue-in-cheek article in Hockey Digest about 20 years ago about how the #13 spot was "unlucky" because so many players in it didn't live up to expectations (i.e. Jack Valiquette). It looks like the trend has continued since then.
I'm one of those people who prefers an elite defenceman over an elite forward given the rarity of the latter and Park ranks higher amongst his peers than Dionne does amongst his. It's debatable though, but Park's superior all-star voting record and excellent playoff performances (compared to Dionne's well-known post-season struggles) gives him the advantage for me.
Regarding voting records, there are twice as many spots for defensemen and Dionne was up directly against Wayne Gretzky. Strange how Park and Dionne not only fight over best #2 draftee but also fight over best player without a Cup.
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See my first response about the difference between an elite forward and elite defenceman. Niedermayer's unprecedented six different championships/gold medal record and his status as the league's best player at his position for a brief period of time (2004-2007) is what wins this for him in my estimation.
There are different degrees of eliteness. Niedermayer was good, is probably going to the Hall, but is not on the same level as Bourque/Leetch/MacInnis/etc. He's closer to a Blake or a Zubov. Nobody remembers that Brian Rafalski was considered a better defenseman until 2003. Also - best player at his position? You forgot Selanne and now Lidstrom?
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Got to go with the borderline star level goaltender here over the third-line checking centre IMO.
"Borderline star-level" is meaningless. Burke was a bit of a journeyman. Pretty good - good enough to remain a starter for around two decades, but Jarvis is the NHL's all-time iron man, has two Stanley Cups and a Selke. He's not a "third line checking center", he's an all-time elite defensive stalwart. A tier below Metz/Keon/Provost but still elite.
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And I'm a Leafs fan.
Have to go with Felix the Cat though. Was an elite level goaltender, or close to it, in 1993 and 1994, and had excellent career value. Plus I'm just not as big of a Tiger Williams fan as most. Two thirty-plus goal campaigns but was a 15-20 goal man in most other seasons. A good player but not quite as good as a goalie that wins 266 games and puts up 32 shutouts with several All-Star Game appearances.
Potvin seemed on the cusp of greatness at the beginning of his career but he burned out too quickly. What stands out for me is how he was a complete failure for the second half of his career. Williams was the heart behind the Canucks' 1982 Cup run - anyone will tell you this. And you have to give credit to a guy who can amass nearly 4000 penalty minutes but still remain valuable enough to keep around for so many games.
Also, can we agree that all star game appearances are worthless? Unless we want to discuss the merits of Filip Kuba vs Tony Hrkac..
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I don't think this one is remotely close actually. LeClair was the league's pre-eminent forward for a full five or six seasons: between 1995 and 1999 he accrued two First All-Star Team and three Second All-Star Team selections while putting up three consecutive fifty-plus goal seasons, followed by two forty-plus goal seasons. All of this was accomplished in the heart of the dead puck era. He was also instrumental in the Americans' surprising win at the 1996 World Cup with six goals and ten points in seven games. Just a dominant, dominant peak. Tonelli has two Second Team selections which is good, but not quite up to par, and he also played during a weaker period for left wingers IMO.
Pre-eminent forward? Did you forget a word there? Remember Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindros, Forsberg, etc?
Tonelli I'm obviously including due to his spot on the dynasty Islanders.
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A second-liner over a Vezina finalist? I can't agree with that.
Langenbrunner is a playoff warrior (check out the 03 playoffs), was a huge part of two different Cup winning teams, and has a much longer career than Dafoe, who was good for a few seasons and flamed out unspectacularly.
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Huselius at least has a couple of borderline PPG seasons. Therien was a fifth defenceman for the most part.
Huselius = perimeter floater with several teams, never stuck anywhere. Close to a point per game on fringe teams. Kind of like a watered down Ray Whitney. Therien was a sturdy, reliable defenseman for a long time and helped the Flyers make the finals in 97.
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Over a goalie with 204 career wins who was highly-regarded at one point?
Career 1b goalie. Coin flip anyways.
I just can't overlook Salo's role in Sweden's 1994 Olympic victory. The 2002 game against Belarus has really detracted from what was an outstanding career, both in the NHL, and on the international stage. Never a Vezina type quality goaltender, but in the next tier down for a lot of seasons on some middling Edmonton teams. Multiple time All-Star Game participant.
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Tucker's still far ahead in terms of career value IMO. Bieksa's been healthy this season but he's had major issues staying in the line-up since he broke into the league.
The thing about Bieksa is that he isn't injury-prone. His injuries all seem to be freak coincidences. Laceration, puck to face, etc. The knock on his game is defensive consistency. A true top 4 defenseman who will pass Tucker soon if he hasn't already.
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Maybe. But a lot of people forget just how good Karpovtsev's 1999 season with Toronto was. He was borderline Norris worthy and won the league +/- title (unofficially - he was one or two games off from qualifying). Laperriere was a good third or fourth liner but I think peak winis out in this head-to-head.
I don't think peak should come into play when talking about Sucklexander Krapovtsev. Laperriere is a warrior, Karpovtsev was a flake. This shouldn't even be an argument. In fact, the only way you could possibly choose KArpovtsev over Laperriere is if the only thing you know about each player is what you read directly from Wikipedia or HockeyDB. If you have any context as to the quality of their careers, you laugh and take Laperriere without blinking.
Regarding voting records, there are twice as many spots for defensemen and Dionne was up directly against Wayne Gretzky. Strange how Park and Dionne not only fight over best #2 draftee but also fight over best player without a Cup.
Regarding voting records: I acknowledged as much with respect to my comments about Savard and the same applies to Dionne.
With that said, I think Park ranks higher in an all-time sense against his contemporaries than Dionne does against his and I have a personal preference for an elite defenceman over an elite forward. As mentioned previously as well, Park elevated his game in the playoffs and Dionne is well known around these parts as one of the most disappointing forwards ever in the post-season. That's worth mentioning in an all-time sense.
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There are different degrees of eliteness. Niedermayer was good, is probably going to the Hall, but is not on the same level as Bourque/Leetch/MacInnis/etc. He's closer to a Blake or a Zubov. Nobody remembers that Brian Rafalski was considered a better defenseman until 2003. Also - best player at his position? You forgot Selanne and now Lidstrom?
With respect to the bolded: I have NEVER in ANY sense heard that EVER acknowledged. You will have to post some past articles or some rankings because that (and I mean this in the most respectful sounding way) just sounds patently made up. And Niedermayer was a Second Team All-Star and making Team Canada squads as early as 1997-98 so that lends further credence to the fact that I think you're gravely mistaken there.
In fact if you want to get into roles, an important consideration is how their team used them during the period of their careers that both were in the swamp 1999-2004. Niedermayer was used in more situations than Rafalski every single season.
New Jersey Defenceman Time on Ice Rankings:
1999-00: Scott Niedermayer - 1st; Brian Rafalski 3rd 2000-01: Scott Niedermayer - 2nd; Brian Rafalski 3rd 2001-02: Scott Niedermayer - 1st; Brian Rafalski 3rd 2002-03: Scott Niedermayer - 1st; Brian Rafalski 2nd 2003-04: Scott Niedermayer - 1st; Brian Rafalski 3rd
And I didn't forget Lidstrom: from 2004-2007 I think that Niedermayer was the better player. He won the Norris in 2004 and the Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup in 2007. Lidstrom's 2004 season was the worst of his career, so it's not a stretch to consider them at least equals during this period of their career. In any case, even if you are of the opinion that Lidstrom was better in that general period of time, I don't think either Lafontaine or Savard had a season where they were considered the best player at their position, and I think that's an important consideration in cases this close.
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"Borderline star-level" is meaningless. Burke was a bit of a journeyman. Pretty good - good enough to remain a starter for around two decades, but Jarvis is the NHL's all-time iron man, has two Stanley Cups and a Selke. He's not a "third line checking center", he's an all-time elite defensive stalwart. A tier below Metz/Keon/Provost but still elite.
Except he was a third-line checking centre.
Pete Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire, and Risebrough were ahead of him for much of his tenure in Montreal and Pierre Larouche and Pierre Mondu following that. In fact, it wasn't until his Selke Trophy season in Washington in 1984 that he became anything more than a fourth-line centre on his team's depth chart, let alone third.
I will take a starting goaltender who played at a star level for several seasons over that unless said checking forward is Bob freaking Gainey. There's simply far too much of a value disparity between a supporting player and a starting goalie, especially when said centre's career high in goals and points is 20 and 48 respective during the 1980s.
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Potvin seemed on the cusp of greatness at the beginning of his career but he burned out too quickly. What stands out for me is how he was a complete failure for the second half of his career. Williams was the heart behind the Canucks' 1982 Cup run - anyone will tell you this. And you have to give credit to a guy who can amass nearly 4000 penalty minutes but still remain valuable enough to keep around for so many games.
His seasons with Los Angeles were productive. He had that run with the Islanders and Canucks where he struggled mightily but to me that's not nearly enough to limit the gap between the two. You seem to like these third-line supporting guys but I'm not a big fan when their competition is actually legitimate All-Star level starting goalies.
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Also, can we agree that all star game appearances are worthless? Unless we want to discuss the merits of Filip Kuba vs Tony Hrkac..
They're worthless when comparing all-time greats because All-Star Team selections are a far more measurable tool to use, but they're a decent enough tie-breaker when talking about non-elite guys.
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Pre-eminent forward? Did you forget a word there? Remember Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindros, Forsberg, etc?
Yes, I'm referring to power forwards here, which should have been obvious given Jagr was putting up yearly Art Rosses during this time period. Come on now, let's not get disingenuous here. I know that an omission of one word, particularly when you type as fast as I normally do, can change the meaning of a sentence but you knew what I was implying here.
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Tonelli I'm obviously including due to his spot on the dynasty Islanders.
He still wasn't as good as LeClair at any point in his career. Very good player. Not elite like LeClair was from 1994-1999 when he was the best left winger in the game along with Kariya.
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Langenbrunner is a playoff warrior (check out the 03 playoffs), was a huge part of two different Cup winning teams, and has a much longer career than Dafoe, who was good for a few seasons and flamed out unspectacularly.
One of the most overrated players I've ever seen. A good playoff performer in every sense, but I think some people have a tendency to exaggerate his 2003 run with New Jersey. I accept that there's a good argument for him over Dafoe based on his longevity though, so I guess you could argue this one.
In fact I think you may have convinced me to change my mind on this comparison. My memories of Dafoe from 1998-2002 are very vivid somehow for whatever the reason.
Career-wise though Langenbrunner has a very comparable record to Cory Stillman, with the one additional strong playoff run added in to close the gap between a weaker regular-season resume.
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Huselius = perimeter floater with several teams, never stuck anywhere. Close to a point per game on fringe teams. Kind of like a watered down Ray Whitney. Therien was a sturdy, reliable defenseman for a long time and helped the Flyers make the finals in 97.
You're still comparing a bottom-pairing defenceman to a top six forward. Therien was garbage for most of the latter half of his career.
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The thing about Bieksa is that he isn't injury-prone. His injuries all seem to be freak coincidences. Laceration, puck to face, etc. The knock on his game is defensive consistency. A true top 4 defenseman who will pass Tucker soon if he hasn't already.
So in other words he's injury prone.
And if we're going to reward players for being playoff warriors then Darcy deserves major kudos in this regard. Few players ever performed beyond their size to the degree that Tucker did. One of the players you would go to the post-season with.
And almost 1000 games played, over 200 goals, and close to 500 points and 1500 PIMs. If you love Tiger Williams you should love Tucker.
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I don't think peak should come into play when talking about Sucklexander Krapovtsev. Laperriere is a warrior, Karpovtsev was a flake. This shouldn't even be an argument. In fact, the only way you could possibly choose KArpovtsev over Laperriere is if the only thing you know about each player is what you read directly from Wikipedia or HockeyDB. If you have any context as to the quality of their careers, you laugh and take Laperriere without blinking.
Well no, I only take Laperriere over Karpovtsev if I base my opinion on useless buzz words like "warrior" and other terms a lot of hockey observers like to throw around with to make borderline players sound better than they are. One was a good top four defender for a period and had one excellent season. The other broke his nose about a dozen times and was a good bottom six guy. Good for him?
Don't get me wrong, Laperriere was a good supporting cast type, but I don't think he had the value that a Karpovtsev did. And the latter also has a Stanley Cup ring to his credit.
Last edited by JaysCyYoung: 02-22-2012 at 03:48 PM.
1. i remember a number of articles in the early 2000s wondering why niedermayer never took the next step and saying, look that chance might be gone because now it's brian rafalski's role. pre-2003 playoffs, niedermayer was often talked about the way bouwmeester has been in his career.
2. this kind of snuck under the radar, but
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung
77. Alexei Zhamnov (1990)
Honourable mentions: Nikolai Borschevsky (1992)
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe
77: Mike Rogers, Paul Broten, Alexei Zhamnov, Chris Clark, Craig Anderson
This is again, just a quick look. Bolded means he's the best guy without me having to think twice.
have to go with mike rogers here at 77. zhamnov had a pretty long career and an excellent career year (albeit lockout shortened) when selanne's knees went to hell, but rogers put up three consecutive 100 point seasons, and finished 5th, 7th, and 12th in league scoring those three years. zhamnov peaked higher (but again, how much credence do we give to a massively outlying career year when it was only 48 games?), but rogers had a more consistently high three year peak and when you consider his WHA years, the overall production and career value is very similar.
rogers is an interesting guy to me; how many players who weren't teenagers were better in the NHL than in the WHA?
You're right. This was a really good thread and I certainly did my part to hijack it. The long conversation about Niedermayer's play before 2003 has been moved to it's own thread:
