HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Esposito and Orr for Gretzky and Coffey

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-08-2012, 11:53 PM
  #1
THE ARS*
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 220
vCash: 500
Esposito and Orr for Gretzky and Coffey

Would you do it?

Tom

THE ARS* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 12:02 AM
  #2
tgo0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE ARS View Post
Would you do it?

Tom
Short answer: No

Long answer: Not ever! The difference between Gretzky and Esposito is miles larger than the difference between Coffey and Orr (which is large, just not nearly as large)

Plus the oilers would never trade Gretzky

tgo0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 12:34 AM
  #3
THE ARS*
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 220
vCash: 500
I think you may be underestimating Mr Espo here, he took the goals record from 58 to 76.

Took the points record from 97 to 152.

Good stuff.



Tom

THE ARS* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 01:04 AM
  #4
Leo W
Stanley Cup Champs
 
Leo W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,734
vCash: 500
Does Edmonton win 4 Stanley Cups with Espo + Orr instead of Coffey + Gretz is a better question I think..

Leo W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 10:09 AM
  #5
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,625
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Washington View Post
Does Edmonton win 4 Stanley Cups with Espo + Orr instead of Coffey + Gretz is a better question I think..
Does Boston win more than 2 with Gretzky and Coffey... for that one I think it is quite possible.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 10:27 AM
  #6
brianscot
Registered User
 
brianscot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 1,363
vCash: 500
Boston still loses a chunk of it's depth players to the WHA and still ends up with an outclassed Gilles Gilbert in goal to match up against Bernie Parent in 1974.

Montreal still continues to build it's last dynasty.

I don't think the Gretzky > Esposito premise is strong enough to overcome those factors.

brianscot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 09:59 PM
  #7
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,678
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Does Boston win more than 2 with Gretzky and Coffey... for that one I think it is quite possible.
Basically we are looking at.........Gretzky, Bucyk, Hodge, Cashman, Coffey, Cheevers. It is still crazy to this day that those Bruins only won two Cups. Coffey is trading down for Orr, but Gretzky is trading up for Espo. Hmmmm.

On the flip side, the Oilers have Esposito, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Orr, Fuhr. Wow. Still a great team, and shows you the offensive depth favours Edmonton.

Personally I think there would be a dog fight between Esposito and Messier for the #1 center spot, but I still give it to Espo. The only thing, can Kurri and Espo co-exist the same? Orr is a step up from Coffey, offensively and defensively so I think that team would still live and die with him. Man either way it is still impossible to see the 1980s Flyers beating that team.

That is a tough sell for the reason that Esposito is for my money a better asset than Coffey. But Gretzky still beats Orr. Hmmm, very close.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 10:04 PM
  #8
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,756
vCash: 500
On paper, I like Orr and Esposito better, but Gretzky and Coffey just have that winning pedigree that is hard to overlook.

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2012, 10:08 PM
  #9
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgo0 View Post
Short answer: No

Long answer: Not ever! The difference between Gretzky and Esposito is miles larger than the difference between Coffey and Orr (which is large, just not nearly as large)

Plus the oilers would never trade Gretzky
I agree here Wayne was still quite the player without the Oilers (and Coffey).

Phil might have been very good but Orr made him what he was and Wayne is more of a "winner" than the 2 Bruins which is the ultimate trump card.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2012, 08:06 AM
  #10
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,625
vCash: 500
I think the Bruins took it easy on the crappy expansion teams. Orr has said he did. Gretzky never took it easy on any team and kept trying to score even if the Oilers were crushing the other team. It would be interesting to see how badly those terrible expansion teams would get crushed by a Gretzky led Bruins.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2012, 02:29 PM
  #11
cam042686
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 351
vCash: 500
Here are my thoughts.

First if I am Edmonton I make the trade. You always win a trade if you get “the best player.” To me Bobby Orr was the best player I have ever seen at any level.

I have never seen anyone who could individually take control and dominate a game like he did and could. Orr could do everything better than anyone else. He was a superb defensive defensemen – Paul Coffey was not. Nor was Gretzky great defensively. Orr like Coffey and Gretzky was also superb on the attack. And unlike Coffey and Gretzky he was a very physical player. When Bobby Orr hit you, it hurt! While Wayne Gretzky was in a league of his own as far as offensive skills, Orr wasn’t far off. And think about this – when Orr was picking up 100 points -as a defenseman no less – in 1969-70 and 1970-71 in particular look at the goalies and defenders he had to do it against. Brad Park, Bill White, Serge Savard, JC Tremblay, Eddie Giacomin, Bernie Parent, Tony Esposito, etc – all at their prime. When Gretzky was rewriting the rule book it was an era of, well at best average goaltending and defense. I am not saying Wayne would not have lead the NHL in scoring in 1970-71 – he would have been great in any era. But he would not have scored anything like 92 goals. Imagine what a young, healthy Orr would have done in the NHL in the early 80’s. Heck even if Orr just had healthy knees and played into the 80’s (which would not have been beyond question) he would have wracked up huge numbers against the goalies and defense of that time.

As for Esposito, unlike Gretzky he didn’t make his wingers better. Heck I could have played LW with Wayne and scored at least 30 goals in the early 80’s! Wayne was a magician that way. But Phil had a knack of getting to the slot and when the puck arrived nobody had a more accurate shot than did Esposito and nobody got it away as fast. Phil was also a very physical player and as we saw in the 1972 Summit, a very good defensive player.

To me if I am Glen Sather in the early 80’s I make this trade.


Craig Wallace

cam042686 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2012, 02:38 PM
  #12
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE ARS View Post
Would you do it?

Tom
Career Value:

#1 Gretzky
#3 Orr
#10 Esposito
#20 Coffey


Gretzky's career value is significantly higher than Orr's and that gives the Oilers pair a distinct advantage here. Keep in mind, when you get Orr, you get less than a decade of Orr. Gretzky was third in the NHL in scoring as a 37 year old.

You have to account for the career in a trade like this, Orr was damaged goods. Would he have had a greater career value than Gretzky if he was healthy? Who knows? It is irrelevant, we should only deal in reality.

The reality is the Oilers combination had a greater combined career value than any other duo in the history of the game including: Orr/Espo, Lemieux/Jagr, Hull/Mikita and every other duo including Howe and whatever teammate you want to add.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2012, 04:17 PM
  #13
MadLuke
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Career Value:
You have to account for the career in a trade like this, Orr was damaged goods. Would he have had a greater career value than Gretzky if he was healthy? Who knows? It is irrelevant, we should only deal in reality.
3 way to look at it imo, you place yourself in the situation to do the trade or not, in this situation you obvisouly do not know how their career pan out.


You can go 100% hindsight, if you do, maybe you trade for Orr and Esposito because you will loose Gretzky to the kings anyway, etc...

Or you can go by career value like you did.

MadLuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2012, 04:38 PM
  #14
BobbyAwe
Registered User
 
BobbyAwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South Carolina
Country: United States
Posts: 2,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgo0 View Post
Short answer: No

Long answer: Not ever! The difference between Gretzky and Esposito is miles larger than the difference between Coffey and Orr (which is large, just not nearly as large)

Plus the oilers would never trade Gretzky
I agree. Though I am a life-long Bruin's fan, I think Espo put up those kind of numbers mainly because he was on the right team at the right time. In a faster game, with bigger defensemen to clear the slot, I don't think he would have been as effective. Gretzky, on the other hand, would have scored a million points in any era.

BobbyAwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.