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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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04-16-2012, 03:27 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You have to consider that the owner likely won't be too happy with a early playoff exit (especially if we go out with a whimper). Gillis might not have a choice but to make at least some noticeable change (and it's easier to use the coach as the fall guy).

This is an owner that has given the green light to Gillis on payroll; so with that comes certain expectations. Lucky for AV, last season I think buys him time. His assistant coaches might not be so lucky.
AV seemed less than enthused the last time Gillis offed one of his buddies and replaced him with R. Walter.

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04-16-2012, 03:32 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You have to consider that the owner likely won't be too happy with a early playoff exit (especially if we go out with a whimper). Gillis might not have a choice but to make at least some noticeable change (and it's easier to use the coach as the fall guy).

This is an owner that has given the green light to Gillis on payroll; so with that comes certain expectations. Lucky for AV, last season I think buys him time. His assistant coaches might not be so lucky.
I agree. Expectations are everything in the coaching game. Right or wrong.

Again for me it's about the actual benefit. Is changing AV out enough. Do we give it another year with this core? Or do we make some tweaks to that core?

To me 2 glaring issues stand out from this series. The managements "reliance" on Edler to become a consistent #1 and wether or not Burrows and Keslers habit of focussing on "peripheral BS" is going to continue to be an issue.

Masking that to some degree is there cap friendliness right now.

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04-16-2012, 03:35 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
I agree. Expectations are everything in the coaching game. Right or wrong.

Again for me it's about the actual benefit. Is changing AV out enough. Do we give it another year with this core? Or do we make some tweaks to that core?

To me 2 glaring issues stand out from this series. The managements "reliance" on Edler to become a consistent #1 and wether or not Burrows and Keslers habit of focussing on "peripheral BS" is going to continue to be an issue.

Masking that to some degree is there cap friendliness right now.
I hate bringing up Ehrhoff again; but letting him go was a big mistake (again not so much for what he brought to the table - right side D) but he seemed to bring out the best in Edler.

For whatever reason, the combo of Edler-Salo just hasn't work anywhere as effectively (or rather consistantly). Given our lack of depth on the right side; it was like putting all your 'eggs in one basket'.


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 04-16-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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04-16-2012, 03:39 PM
  #354
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There are currently 0 studies out there on the effect of off-season coaching replacements in hockey. Why? Because the teams also change and it's impossible to control for that. There would be so much noise in the data, it would provide absolutely nothing of value.
Why do you think there would be a difference though? Because we can't study off-season changes well statistically, I think it's reasonable to rely on in-season changes.

Gabe Desjardins found a minimal impact of coaching changes long-term in terms of Fenwick percentage:

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2011/...ach-on-fenwick

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04-16-2012, 03:40 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I hate bringing up Ehrhoff again; but letting him go was a big mistake (again not so much for what he brought to the table - right side D) but he seemed to bring out the best in Edler.

For whatever reason, the combo of Edler-Salo just work anywhere as effectively (or rather consistantly).
Maybe.

My issue is with Edler though. Forget who he's paired with.

Can he get past these periods where he totally loses the plot? I believe he can.

Salo is another issue. It seems clear that he's not his usual self and it seems that way since the Marchand hit.

I'm actually wondering if our PP and scoring issues might have something to do with that since they seemed to have taken a dice around the same time.

He's gone from Norris talk to I believe Chappy on 1040 suggestion he should have been benched.

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04-16-2012, 03:43 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Why do you think there would be a difference though? Because we can't study off-season changes well statistically, I think it's reasonable to rely on in-season changes.
Because a coaching change in the off-season gives the new coach time to work on things. I'm not saying it necessarily does make a difference, but to me it's flawed to conclude that replacing a coach during the season is the same as during the offseason.

I would compare it to a player joining a new team during the offseason as opposed to during a trade deadline. And on that note, any stats on player's performance in the 20 odd games past TD and then in the new season?

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04-16-2012, 03:44 PM
  #357
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Why do you think there would be a difference though? Because we can't study off-season changes well statistically, I think it's reasonable to rely on in-season changes.

Gabe Desjardins found a minimal impact of coaching changes long-term in terms of Fenwick percentage:

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2011/...ach-on-fenwick
Nice ill read that article.


All in all I think most things point to a coaching change as being minimal in the impact department.

A couple of the studies brought up things like under performing teams regressing to the mean.

Considering where the Canucks actually are (yes fans think they are the worst team ever now) I don't know how much of an impact a coaching change will have on our performance next year. I guess that largely depends on fan expectations.

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04-16-2012, 03:56 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Nice ill read that article.


All in all I think most things point to a coaching change as being minimal in the impact department.

A couple of the studies brought up things like under performing teams regressing to the mean.

Considering where the Canucks actually are (yes fans think they are the worst team ever now) I don't know how much of an impact a coaching change will have on our performance next year. I guess that largely depends on fan expectations.
To me that's almost like saying that all coaches are the same, and don't influence the success of a team. And for large number of mid to lower tier coaches that's probably the case. But if it's true, what does it matter if we fire AV? Might as well do it just so we can see a less smirky face in press conferences.

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04-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #359
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To me that's almost like saying that all coaches are the same, and don't influence the success of a team. And for large number of mid to lower tier coaches that's probably the case. But if it's true, what does it matter if we fire AV? Might as well do it just so we can see a less smirky face in press conferences.
It appears to be not that far off. There is little difference between coaches in the whole scheme of things. Other factors are more significant.

Guy Boucher as an example.

It doesn't matter if we fire AV really. What matters is what our players do.

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04-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #360
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I would compare it to a player joining a new team during the offseason as opposed to during a trade deadline. And on that note, any stats on player's performance in the 20 odd games past TD and then in the new season?
Basically outperforming expectations is likely luck (regress to the mean next season) while a decline post-trade may indicate that decline.

http://www.puckprospectus.com/articl...articleid=1113

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04-16-2012, 04:03 PM
  #361
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Because a coaching change in the off-season gives the new coach time to work on things.
Training camp in the NHL is like 2 weeks long and changes can easily be made to game plans on the fly in hockey. It's not like football where you need an offseason to institute change.

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04-16-2012, 04:33 PM
  #362
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I think Vigneault is a good coach when it comes to mechanical things. Calling time-outs, shuffling lines, line-matching etc.,


My problem with him comes with the motivation. He doesn't have any intangibles. He can't get this group motivated.



Rick Rypien passes away, dedicating the season to him should have given energy and life to the players that were close to him.

Daniel Sedin get's concussed, that should've been a rallying cry for these playoffs to win in spite of him falling by getting the committee to step up with a collective effort.


LA mocks us publicly on twitter. Even that could've been converted into a "let's show them" motivation tool.

I don't know that he's tried to use these things, but whether he has or not he clearly does not have the ability to execute them properly because what we're seeing is a skilled squad that has plenty of talent and speed and yet is losing this series due to a lack of effort.

When Nathan Horton went down the Bruins responded by upping their game.

When Mason Raymond went down the Canucks came up with nothing.

When Seabrook was wrecked by Torres last year the Hawks forced Game 7 overtime after being down 3-0 in the series.

The other great teams around the league find something to motivate them, to drive them, to give them fuel when they're running on empty in the post-season.

It's not always the coach, it's more often the Captain and other leaders in the locker-room, so our problems in this department go past Vigneault.


That said, Alain not being able to motivate the team is a pretty big concern. As is the team not being able to motivate themselves.

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04-16-2012, 04:37 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by GCM View Post
I think Vigneault is a good coach when it comes to mechanical things. Calling time-outs, shuffling lines, line-matching etc.,


My problem with him comes with the motivation. He doesn't have any intangibles. He can't get this group motivated.



Rick Rypien passes away, dedicating the season to him should have given energy and life to the players that were close to him.

Daniel Sedin get's concussed, that should've been a rallying cry for these playoffs to win in spite of him falling by getting the committee to step up with a collective effort.


LA mocks us publicly on twitter. Even that could've been converted into a "let's show them" motivation tool.

I don't know that he's tried to use these things, but whether he has or not he clearly does not have the ability to execute them properly because what we're seeing is a skilled squad that has plenty of talent and speed and yet is losing this series due to a lack of effort.

When Nathan Horton went down the Bruins responded by upping their game.

When Mason Raymond went down the Canucks came up with nothing.

When Seabrook was wrecked by Torres last year the Hawks forced Game 7 overtime after being down 3-0 in the series.

The other great teams around the league find something to motivate them, to drive them, to give them fuel when they're running on empty in the post-season.

It's not always the coach, it's more often the Captain and other leaders in the locker-room, so our problems in this department go past Vigneault.


That said, Alain not being able to motivate the team is a pretty big concern. As is the team not being able to motivate themselves.
So these adult men, need somebody to motivate them?

What a crock!

Motivate yourselves. The players are the ones needed to rally!

Not sure why a coach would need to bring these things up, the leadership group of the team can do the exact same thing. You dont see or hear of very many 'players only' meetings going on hear, do you?

Crawford ranted and screamed everywhere he went...where is he? on TV.

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04-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #364
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To me that's almost like saying that all coaches are the same, and don't influence the success of a team. And for large number of mid to lower tier coaches that's probably the case.
It's exactly the other way around - it's when you're talking about lower-tier coaches that coaching differences matter most - it's when you're talking about good coaches that the differences matter least.

The Hard Right Edge rears its ugly head again.

 
Old
04-16-2012, 04:42 PM
  #365
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So these adult men, need somebody to motivate them?

What a crock!

Motivate yourselves. The players are the ones needed to rally!

Not sure why a coach would need to bring these things up, the leadership group of the team can do the exact same thing. You dont see or hear of very many 'players only' meetings going on hear, do you?

Crawford ranted and screamed everywhere he went...where is he? on TV.
A coach needs to be there for when players DON'T motivate themselves.

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04-16-2012, 04:48 PM
  #366
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Is Scotty Bowman a motivator?Players hated his guts as a person but respected him as a coach.As long as you gave 100 percent he liked you Lafleur and izerman are examples.But if you floated like Pierre Larouche he would bench you.Bowman disliked 6foot5 Peter Maholovich and traded him despite getting 100 points.The coach is not the problem its the star players who need to produce.

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04-16-2012, 04:49 PM
  #367
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Is Scotty Bowman a motivator?Players hated his guts as a person but respected him as a coach.As long as you gave 100 percent he liked you Lafleur and izerman are examples.But if you floated like Pierre Larouche he would bench you.Bowman disliked 6foot5 Peter Maholovich and traded him despite getting 100 points.The coach is not the problem its the star players who need to produce.
The team is banging its head against an iron door, doing the same things over and over. I don't see how that falls on the players. They're playing the exact system that AV wants them to and I don't really get how people can't see this.

I would understand this argument if the players were not following the system but they are — last night that resulted in 0 goals on 40 shots, of which only 9 were scoring chances. That's not a player issue, that's a system issue.

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04-16-2012, 04:50 PM
  #368
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A coach needs to be there for when players DON'T motivate themselves.
AV: Hey guys Rypien's dead. Win it for him.

Canucks: OK.


Like seriously, stating the obvious while yelling is hardly motivation. Being treated like a man and being given responsibility to motivate yourself is part of what pushed us to becoming one of the elite franchises in the league.

The players are talented, they have a system....if they need Tony Robbins-like motivation, maybe they are better off in Columbus?

Firing AV is the inevitable, its the reality of pro sports. Someone has to take the fall, but to state that firing AV is the answer to all this teams issues is silly talk.

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04-16-2012, 04:51 PM
  #369
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It appears to be not that far off. There is little difference between coaches in the whole scheme of things. Other factors are more significant.

Guy Boucher as an example.

It doesn't matter if we fire AV really. What matters is what our players do.
But AV helps Gillis in terms of determining what our needs are and what type of roster to build.

I think it's fair to say that AV was at least a little involved in wanting a 2 scoring line team, as well as suggesting that we could afford to trade Hodgson for a player to help us in the future rather than the present. I would even go so far as saying that AV was a catalyst behind those 2 adjustments.

Those are two very big misjudgments, imo.

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04-16-2012, 04:54 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
AV: Hey guys Rypien's dead. Win it for him.

Canucks: OK.


Like seriously, stating the obvious while yelling is hardly motivation. Being treated like a man and being given responsibility to motivate yourself is part of what pushed us to becoming one of the elite franchises in the league.

The players are talented, they have a system....if they need Tony Robbins-like motivation, maybe they are better off in Columbus?

Firing AV is the inevitable, its the reality of pro sports. Someone has to take the fall, but to state that firing AV is the answer to all this teams issues is silly talk.
I'm not saying he needs to yell to motivate players. Coaches can use a lot of tools to motivate players other than yelling.

I agree that players SHOULD be able to motivate themselves, but over an 82 game season not everyone can make it without some prodding here and there, that is the coaches job to take care of.

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04-16-2012, 04:55 PM
  #371
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If the Canucks get swept in the 1st round and Gillis fires AV would it be plausible to see Marc Crawford back as coach of the Canucks?

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04-16-2012, 04:55 PM
  #372
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If the Canucks get swept in the 1st round and Gillis fires AV would it be plausible to see Marc Crawford back as coach of the Canucks?
No...

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04-16-2012, 04:55 PM
  #373
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If the Canucks get swept in the 1st round and Gillis fires AV would it be plausible to see Marc Crawford back as coach of the Canucks?
Extremely unlikely...although I'm sure he'd love the opportunity.

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04-16-2012, 04:57 PM
  #374
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The team is banging its head against an iron door, doing the same things over and over. I don't see how that falls on the players. They're playing the exact system that AV wants them to and I don't really get how people can't see this.

I would understand this argument if the players were not following the system but they are last night that resulted in 0 goals on 40 shots, of which only 9 were scoring chances. That's not a player issue, that's a system issue.
That is completely different than the motivation topic thom had brought up.

That system only gave up 20 shots on goal.

We can't run and gun, we're missing our best goal scorer?

Serious question here: What would you implement as a system RIGHT NOW.

We outshot them 2-1 last night, we had the decided edge in territorial play....probably could have won game 1 if not for Edler's brain fart with 3 minutes to go.

I'll agree, we aren't generating many scoring chances (9 sounded high, but I'll take your word for it)...we aren't generating scoring chances, I wouldn't blame the system for that...i'd blame the personnel.

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04-16-2012, 05:00 PM
  #375
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arsmaster can you read?

I stated multiple times that our problems go past AV and into the leadership group.


But if you seriously think it's not a coach's responsibility to motivate his players then... You're a lost cause.

What is your definition of a coach? A monotonous robot that draws up plays on a board?


Great coaches have challenged and motivated their players. They get the best out of them some how some way.

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