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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 2

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01-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #626
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Players coming out 'not ready', having 'no motivation'.....well here's Max's. And it's there for all to hear and see.

He's mentioned the Sedin's poor starts, when are those guys going to take it to heart and give us a dominating performance? Kesler has been motivated this way in the past too. Which is guys, is he not a motivator or is he too hard, so annoying the flip flop around here.

Ebbett is on the team, MIKE GILLIS SIGNED HIM, MIKE GILLIS HAS FINAL SAY ON PERSONNEL.

I dislike Ebbett as much as the next guy, but he could hardly be blamed for this loss, just like Vigneault shouldn't either.

I'll say it again, two brutal giveaways that cost the team goals is not on the coach.



If talking bigger picture, how does a coach go 7 years with losing records out of the gate and escape blame? How does this happen?


This game, sure, Edler and Garrison made some pretty bad gaffes. However, is AV helping the situation by utilizing Ebbett the way that he does? Gillis signs the player, but the utilization is AV correct?

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01-28-2013, 10:40 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
My two biggest issues are:

We should have played Schroeder over Ebbett in almost any scenario.

Why were both Sedins to the right of the faceoff dot in the offensive zone?
Agreed. Then when Schroeder fails everyone can blame AV for "throwing him to the wolves."

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01-28-2013, 10:44 AM
  #628
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We should have played Schroeder over Ebbett in almost any scenario.
He hasn't had any PK time since last year, it would be a tough position to put him in. (Damn you, Arniel.)

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01-28-2013, 10:45 AM
  #629
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I want AV gone as much as the next guy, but I don't think Crawford is the answer. Yes he's won a Cup, but that was with an absolutely stacked Colorado team that was a contender before even adding a HOF goaltender. Since that one season he hasn't really done much.
I don't want Crawford back either but it cracks me up that AV is hailed as the best coach in canuck history.His tenure has had a HOF goaltender & art ross trophy winner & a selke trophy winner.
What other Canuck coach had at his disposal such an embarrassment of riches.
When the team struggles the players are scapegoated but when the players excel it's obviously the coaching.

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01-28-2013, 10:47 AM
  #630
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Gillis signs the player, but the utilization is AV correct?
They don't work in silos like that. Players are signed for (envisioned) roles - it's a highly collaborative process.

One they don't always get right...

 
Old
01-28-2013, 10:51 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If talking bigger picture, how does a coach go 7 years with losing records out of the gate and escape blame? How does this happen?


This game, sure, Edler and Garrison made some pretty bad gaffes. However, is AV helping the situation by utilizing Ebbett the way that he does? Gillis signs the player, but the utilization is AV correct?
Who would YOU have had out there PKing? To be fair I don't even recall mistakes made by Ebbett that led to these goals last night, I realize he was on the ice for two PP goals, and we love looking for a scape goat, but I'm wondering what exactly he did wrong. I watched the game, I get mad when he's on the ice, but what did he do wrong? Maybe it's obvious and I just missed it.

It's even laughable to suggest this team would use Schroeder out there on the PK, the only guy in the entire system that would trust Schroeder out there on the PK now works in Edmonton's front office.

Arniel told the entire staff Ebbett had been his best player in Chicago, best PKer.....we know they aren't going to use Sedin, Sedin, Schroeder, Kassian, Volpatti (Lappy was in the box) so that's 6 other forwards, it takes 6 forwards to kill a penalty usually. So you got Burrows- Raymond, Higgins (who has been dreadful so far) and Hansen, and ......... Ebbett. It's not ideal, obviously, as he shouldn't be getting that opportunity, but thats how AV and MG have decided to build and utilize the roster. Hopefully he's back in Chi-Town when Kesler and Booth get back.

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01-28-2013, 10:51 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
They don't work in silos like that. Players are signed for (envisioned) roles - it's a highly collaborative process.

One they don't always get right...
Theres absolutely no way MG doesnt have some control over the process. Hes hardly the absent manager.

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01-28-2013, 10:55 AM
  #633
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Who would YOU have had out there PKing? To be fair I don't even recall mistakes made by Ebbett that led to these goals last night, I realize he was on the ice for two PP goals, and we love looking for a scape goat, but I'm wondering what exactly he did wrong. I watched the game, I get mad when he's on the ice, but what did he do wrong? Maybe it's obvious and I just missed it.
Failed to clear the puck on the 1st PP because he threw it weakly up the middle, failed to take his lanes properly several times, is not good about tracking his man when the action gets closer to the net (he should've been aware of his guy coming up behind him on the 2nd PK goal), horrible at covering passing lanes and slow to get around. His coverage as a whole is simply lacking and he doesn't block shots.

We're talking about a guy that's a big part of the Chicago PK being bottom of the AHL. How did they think he would be good?

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Arniel told the entire staff Ebbett had been his best player in Chicago, best PKer.....we know they aren't going to use Sedin, Sedin, Schroeder, Kassian, Volpatti (Lappy was in the box) so that's 6 other forwards, it takes 6 forwards to kill a penalty usually. So you got Burrows- Raymond, Higgins (who has been dreadful so far) and Hansen, and ......... Ebbett. It's not ideal, obviously, as he shouldn't be getting that opportunity, but thats how AV and MG have decided to build and utilize the roster. Hopefully he's back in Chi-Town when Kesler and Booth get back.
AV should've watched the games in Chicago himself. Anyone that watched could see that Ebbett was not good enough as #1C, was outplayed by Schroeder, and was horrible on the PK. It's perplexing that they not only trusted Arniel but that he's still employed after seeing how big the margin between JS and Ebbett is. The guy is down there wasting away prospects and apparently has the blessing of this organization to do so.

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01-28-2013, 10:55 AM
  #634
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I don't want Crawford back either but it cracks me up that AV is hailed as the best coach in canuck history.His tenure has had a HOF goaltender & art ross trophy winner & a selke trophy winner.
What other Canuck coach had at his disposal such an embarrassment of riches.
When the team struggles the players are scapegoated but when the players excel it's obviously the coaching.
Crawford had those Art Ross guys as young players, playing in the background....Markus Naslund was the top offensive player in the league for a 3 year stretch, Bertuzzi was the most dominant power winger the league had seen since Neely.

It's actually a bit humerous, we talk about the Twins like this now, and AV gets no credit for it.

These guys went from 70 points to 110....

I was avoiding getting in the Crawford debate, because it's absolutely beyond ridiculous to even suggest bringing him back, but I had to say this.

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01-28-2013, 10:58 AM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Who would YOU have had out there PKing? To be fair I don't even recall mistakes made by Ebbett that led to these goals last night, I realize he was on the ice for two PP goals, and we love looking for a scape goat, but I'm wondering what exactly he did wrong. I watched the game, I get mad when he's on the ice, but what did he do wrong? Maybe it's obvious and I just missed it.

It's even laughable to suggest this team would use Schroeder out there on the PK, the only guy in the entire system that would trust Schroeder out there on the PK now works in Edmonton's front office.

Arniel told the entire staff Ebbett had been his best player in Chicago, best PKer.....we know they aren't going to use Sedin, Sedin, Schroeder, Kassian, Volpatti (Lappy was in the box) so that's 6 other forwards, it takes 6 forwards to kill a penalty usually. So you got Burrows- Raymond, Higgins (who has been dreadful so far) and Hansen, and ......... Ebbett. It's not ideal, obviously, as he shouldn't be getting that opportunity, but thats how AV and MG have decided to build and utilize the roster. Hopefully he's back in Chi-Town when Kesler and Booth get back.


You still haven't answered the question about the bigger picture. 7 years, every one of them slow starts, how does a coach escape the blame there? How does that happen?



Rather than have me and you go back and forth on the merits of Ebbett on the PK, which I'm just going to leave as one of the dumbest ideas AV has had in his very short stint here this season, let's move onto the bigger picture. 7 years. Explain it.

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01-28-2013, 11:01 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Failed to clear the puck on the 1st PP because he threw it weakly up the middle, failed to take his lanes properly several times, is not good about tracking his man when the action gets closer to the net (he should've been aware of his guy coming up behind him on the 2nd PK goal). His coverage as a whole is simply lacking and he doesn't block shots.

We're talking about a guy that's a big part of the Chicago PK being bottom of the AHL. How did they think he would be good?



AV should've watched the game in Chicago himself. Anyone that watched could see that Ebbett was not good enough as #1C, was outplayed by Schroeder, and was horrible on the PK. It's perplexing that they not only trusted Arniel but that he's still employed after seeing how big the margin between JS and Ebbett is. The guy is down there wasting away prospects and apparently has the blessing of this organization to do so.
Thanks Tiranis.

Actually, now I do recall that extremely weak clearance.

I also agree on most of the Ebbett assessments, as I watched chunks of 10-12 Wolves games during the lockout....

The part that really scares me is Gillis and Henning like him enough to keep him there, protect him from waivers, what AV to do plant him on the end of the bench? Who knows.



To bad Schroeder wasn't given more responsibility down on the farm this year, it's almost inexcusable, I'd call that an organizational failure from top to bottom.

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01-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You still haven't answered the question about the bigger picture. 7 years, every one of them slow starts, how does a coach escape the blame there? How does that happen?
AV does have to take his share of the blame for that; but it's also hard to have a good start when your all star goalie looks like a back up for the first month year after year.

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01-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You still haven't answered the question about the bigger picture. 7 years, every one of them slow starts, how does a coach escape the blame there? How does that happen?



Rather than have me and you go back and forth on the merits of Ebbett on the PK, which I'm just going to leave as one of the dumbest ideas AV has had in his very short stint here this season, let's move onto the bigger picture. 7 years. Explain it.
The end results - the teams win their division every year (except one).

I'm not prepared to call this a slow start either, it's not ideal, but the first game withstanding we're in every game.

I wonder why you didn't ask this question after friday nights game....that is the annoying part around here.

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01-28-2013, 11:08 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You still haven't answered the question about the bigger picture. 7 years, every one of them slow starts, how does a coach escape the blame there? How does that happen?



Rather than have me and you go back and forth on the merits of Ebbett on the PK, which I'm just going to leave as one of the dumbest ideas AV has had in his very short stint here this season, let's move onto the bigger picture. 7 years. Explain it.


I agree with on a typical year that Mr.AV should take the blame for our shizzen starts to the season. The biggest problem to date is we didn't have enough players that went overseas to play (or in AHL)

SJ 5-0 (Thornton, Demers, Niemi, Couture, Greiss). We all know that Thornton is the straw that stirs SJS drink, he's played great and looks great.

CHi 6-0 (Kane, Hjalmarsson, Bickell, Shaw, Leddy, Frolik). In every case with the top teams to date there has been one main offensive player that has played overseas/AHL.

Vancouver (Kassian, Schroeder, Schneider (very short stint), Weise, Hansen, Tanev). It is pretty obvious that in each game we've played so far that one, if not all, were our best players on the ice. I really wish the twins bailed for MODO right away because they are clearly a step behind right now, they are making passes like 2001/02 twins.

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01-28-2013, 11:15 AM
  #640
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I watched the SJ feed last night, there was an interesting infographic. Apparently no team in the league other than the Canucks went the full season last year without a winless streak longer than 2 games.

It speaks to this team's consistency that they managed to achieve this, I guess you could say it's a credit to the coaching staff but I suppose this thread isn't the place for that is it.

Quote:
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You still haven't answered the question about the bigger picture. 7 years, every one of them slow starts, how does a coach escape the blame there? How does that happen?
We don't exactly see the inner workings of the manner in which AV is evaluated and gets feedback from Canucks management.

Pretty much the only way you're going to find out that AV is held 'accountable' for the slow starts is if he gets fired and Mike Gillis comes out to the press with a statement along the lines of "Alain was part of a period of unprecedented success in Canucks history, including the two best ever regular season finishes, however we felt that he could have been better in October so we fired him."

As long as a team is generally successful with a particular coach in achieving their goals, you're probably not going to see him get canned over nitpicky stuff - and yes, when the team is finishing at the top of the league, "we could have had a better October" is nitpicky.

I suspect if the team fails to make the playoffs then missing opportunities to collect points in the first month of the season will be much more closely examined.

Until then, no coaches are perfect and they all have their flaws.. I'd much rather the Canucks be on AV to work through the ones that impact us in April than in October.

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01-28-2013, 11:16 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
AV does have to take his share of the blame for that; but it's also hard to have a good start when your all star goalie looks like a back up for the first month year after year.

I thought Schneider looked ok against ANA. The goalie thing is proving to be less and less the culprit here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The end results - the teams win their division every year (except one).

I'm not prepared to call this a slow start either, it's not ideal, but the first game withstanding we're in every game.

I wonder why you didn't ask this question after friday nights game....that is the annoying part around here.


Who cares when I ask the question? If you look back, the last post before this thread got bumped had me calling for his head. My opinion isn't the fickle wavering you are making it out to be. And you still haven't explained why the coach goes blameless here for his prior record.



End result is the division so all is forgiven? AV comes out blameless then? 7 years is as consistent as you're going to get before start calling it a patter with this coach. What's more, this has happened in prior tenures. So when does he share the blame? When is it time to start looking at him as the cause? Partial or full?


The team is currently .500. For a team that has, as you put it, won the division and has won the PTs twice in the last two years, .500 is not the record commensurate with those statistics. Further, if they are at a sub-.500 record around the 7-8 game mark, that should conclude the pattern of being sub-.500 for the first 10 games (or equivalent) for now 7 years running. We're headed that way.



Winning the division against lesser competition should no longer be the requirement here. If this team is ready to contend, they should be judged by an appropriate standard. Unless of course people are just happy they squeeze into the playoffs... but even then, that's going to be pretty hard to do with a .500 or lower record.

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01-28-2013, 11:21 AM
  #642
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Thanks Tiranis.

Actually, now I do recall that extremely weak clearance.

I also agree on most of the Ebbett assessments, as I watched chunks of 10-12 Wolves games during the lockout....

The part that really scares me is Gillis and Henning like him enough to keep him there, protect him from waivers, what AV to do plant him on the end of the bench? Who knows.



To bad Schroeder wasn't given more responsibility down on the farm this year, it's almost inexcusable, I'd call that an organizational failure from top to bottom.
Wasn't his stick broken/breaking though on that clearance? I recall that he didn't have a stick shortly thereafter

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01-28-2013, 11:24 AM
  #643
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Wasn't his stick broken/breaking though on that clearance? I recall that he didn't have a stick shortly thereafter
Yes his stick was broken from a shot. And it wasnt entirely his fault. The whole box/diamond was a mess then became tired, collapsed and even more of a mess.

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01-28-2013, 11:25 AM
  #644
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I watched the SJ feed last night, there was an interesting infographic. Apparently no team in the league other than the Canucks went the full season last year without a winless streak longer than 2 games.

It speaks to this team's consistency that they managed to achieve this, I guess you could say it's a credit to the coaching staff but I suppose this thread isn't the place for that is it.



We don't exactly see the inner workings of the manner in which AV is evaluated and gets feedback from Canucks management.

Pretty much the only way you're going to find out that AV is held 'accountable' for the slow starts is if he gets fired and Mike Gillis comes out to the press with a statement along the lines of "Alain was part of a period of unprecedented success in Canucks history, including the two best ever regular season finishes, however we felt that he could have been better in October so we fired him."

As long as a team is generally successful with a particular coach in achieving their goals, you're probably not going to see him get canned over nitpicky stuff - and yes, when the team is finishing at the top of the league, "we could have had a better October" is nitpicky.

I suspect if the team fails to make the playoffs then missing opportunities to collect points in the first month of the season will be much more closely examined.

Until then, no coaches are perfect and they all have their flaws.. I'd much rather the Canucks be on AV to work through the ones that impact us in April than in October.



arsmaster is contending that AV is blameless in these slow starts, and I completely disagree. Whether he is held accountable behind closed doors, who knows? I wanted him gone at the end of last year, but I also recognize that he is a very good coach. Coaches have to adapt though, and if there is one major issue I have with this coach is that he is either incapable of adapting or unwilling. Year after year after year... at some point you could just luck into a good start by fluke no?


He's not a bad coach, but I have long since felt that his message has gotten stale with this group. It's like the team gets going when the leadership in the room figures it out and everyone follows suit, the coach being largely irrelevant to the process. Basically, he'll call out players in the media and that's his shtick now. I guess that's what his "style" has come down to.


I'll give him the credit for the regular season awards. But I can also critique his starts, his inability to adapt in the playoffs, his dubious utilization of certain players etc... It's fair game as far as I'm concerned. I just don't get this: He's not to blame for the slow starts cause the players screwed up... He cannot be absolved of blame when it has become a pattern.

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01-28-2013, 11:32 AM
  #645
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Who cares when I ask the question? If you look back, the last post before this thread got bumped had me calling for his head. My opinion isn't the fickle wavering you are making it out to be. And you still haven't explained why the coach goes blameless here for his prior record.



End result is the division so all is forgiven? AV comes out blameless then? 7 years is as consistent as you're going to get before start calling it a patter with this coach. What's more, this has happened in prior tenures. So when does he share the blame? When is it time to start looking at him as the cause? Partial or full?


The team is currently .500. For a team that has, as you put it, won the division and has won the PTs twice in the last two years, .500 is not the record commensurate with those statistics. Further, if they are at a sub-.500 record around the 7-8 game mark, that should conclude the pattern of being sub-.500 for the first 10 games (or equivalent) for now 7 years running. We're headed that way.



Winning the division against lesser competition should no longer be the requirement here. If this team is ready to contend, they should be judged by an appropriate standard. Unless of course people are just happy they squeeze into the playoffs... but even then, that's going to be pretty hard to do with a .500 or lower record.
I care when you ask it because it's convenient to ask after a 4-1 loss, and not after a 5-0 win.

I answered your question, the final results of getting into the playoffs is enough that 5 games to start the season isn't enough for me.

AV isn't blameless, but I'd also say you can't pin all the blame on him. I thought they played real well last night, outside the two awful giveaways (but I guess AV didn't have Edler and Garrison ready to play). The boys looked ready last night to me, Burrows and Hansen were intense before the puck even dropped, Volpatti, Weise and Kassian were throwing the body.

It was a poor result, not one I blame on not being ready.

They are missing Kesler and Booth, two top 6 forwards and the teams heart and soul. My goal was for the team to tread water until these guys got back, before last nights game they had 5 of 8 possible points or a 0.625 record....better than .500, that's why the poor start crap is coming out now, because they lost_LAST_night (using your style now).

Berstuzzi's posts summed up my feelings on this years "bad start" as you're calling it.

All I want is this team to win a cup, I don't care how they do it....but I'm over regular season success, get to the dance to give yourself a chance that is all I want. I don't think they have to live up to past regular season performances, they need to win when it truly matters.

Let's give it another game shall we, rehash tonight....

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01-28-2013, 11:33 AM
  #646
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Wasn't his stick broken/breaking though on that clearance? I recall that he didn't have a stick shortly thereafter
AV chose his stick manufacturer

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01-28-2013, 11:34 AM
  #647
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I thought Schneider looked ok against ANA. The goalie thing is proving to be less and less the culprit here.
Agree to an extent. Luongo does have a history of poor Octobers going back to FLA.

AV gets a bit of a break for the lack of a preseason this year but in years past, I noticed he has a tendency on focusing on some aspect of the team that he finds lacking and expecting the rest of it to fall into place by itself, eg. two seasons ago using most of the preseason games as tryouts for fourth line wingers and only icing the full starting roster in the last game. That tendency, imo, is a big part in why the team looks disconnected to start the season.

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01-28-2013, 11:45 AM
  #648
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Agree to an extent. Luongo does have a history of poor Octobers going back to FLA.
No he doesn't. October used to be his 2nd best month. It's AV that has a history of it going back to all his past clubs.

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01-28-2013, 11:46 AM
  #649
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arsmaster is contending that AV is blameless in these slow starts, and I completely disagree. Whether he is held accountable behind closed doors, who knows? I wanted him gone at the end of last year, but I also recognize that he is a very good coach. Coaches have to adapt though, and if there is one major issue I have with this coach is that he is either incapable of adapting or unwilling. Year after year after year... at some point you could just luck into a good start by fluke no?
People call AV inflexible or unable to adapt, but the way this team plays both in general and in terms of specific deployment has changed a great deal throughout AV's tenure.

From zone based deployment, to going from essentially a tight-checking systems team to one of the league's most dynamic offenses where most defensemen have the green light on every play to roam down below the hash marks to facilitate scoring chances.. I would consider that quite an adaptation.

I think on a large scale, AV is very good at playing with the hand he has been dealt - he got this team to the playoffs when we were a 2/3 of a line team, he has got this team to the playoffs in seasons where we've used 10+ defensemen due to injuries, he has achieved a lot in a variety of different situations and as a result we (rightfully) have very high expectations.

I do question this team's ability to adapt in much smaller scenarios - I would have liked to see us clamp down and try to grind out 1-0 wins during the SCFs, for example - but I could never claim to have complete enough information to question those decisions..

Quote:
He's not a bad coach, but I have long since felt that his message has gotten stale with this group. It's like the team gets going when the leadership in the room figures it out and everyone follows suit, the coach being largely irrelevant to the process. Basically, he'll call out players in the media and that's his shtick now. I guess that's what his "style" has come down to.

I'll give him the credit for the regular season awards. But I can also critique his starts, his inability to adapt in the playoffs, his dubious utilization of certain players etc... It's fair game as far as I'm concerned. I just don't get this: He's not to blame for the slow starts cause the players screwed up... He cannot be absolved of blame when it has become a pattern.
I think AV gives the players a lot of leeway and in that respect it is absolutely necessary for the leadership group to have things "figured out" as they have some level of ownership over the on ice performance. Personally I don't think there is a problem with that.

Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I don't think AV drags players names through the mud more than the vast majority of other NHL coaches.. I don't think he pulls punches but you don't see him do much beyond answering questions. It's not like we're talking about John Tortorella talking about how horrid this or that player has been.

It's certainly possible that his approach has become stale and that the players need a new influence to take the next step, hell if the management group thinks so then go for it and I'll be interested to see what develops.

I just don't think there's a lot of proof of that claim, at least not a lot that we can see from out here in the peanut gallery.

Yes the Canucks have started slowly but I don't think that's a major issue, particularly not when they spend the rest of the season mopping the floor with the rest of the league.

I am very concerned about playoff results but I think it is highly debateable just how many times AV has been "outcoached" in a playoff series in a manner that has influenced the outcome of that series.

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01-28-2013, 11:48 AM
  #650
ItsAllPartOfThePlan
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Originally Posted by eeddieedwards View Post
Wasn't his stick broken/breaking though on that clearance? I recall that he didn't have a stick shortly thereafter
Nope..it was well after he tried to make that clearance that his stick broke.

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