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Habs 1st rounder

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Old
02-10-2012, 01:18 PM
  #51
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
For the 2012 first, I don't think I would want any of your untouchables either, since Habs don't need Lundqvist. Chances are very strong Habs 1st round pick end up better than anybody on the Rangers not named Henrik, Brad or Marian (who I have no interest for either if the 2012 is in play).

I find in general Habs and Rangers aren't good trade partners. Rangers are a very strong & unified group of players (Torts' magic?), but they have no single outstanding individual I would be willing to overpay for. For fair value, sure, but fair value seems to have become an unattainable, abstract concept nowadays on this site.
Bold = observed.
Underline = you may be right as to fair value an abstract concept.
Think you try for the deals you want and settle for what you can get, but people have to realize that swindling is not usually gonna happen, so it makes sense to try for a win-win if you can profit with what you wind up with.

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02-10-2012, 01:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
That's not really a counter offer since you've removed every single piece from the initial offer (Staal, McIlrath and NYR 1st).

I think you're trying to screw the Habs big time with your quantity for quality packages.
Substituted Girardi for Staal.
Anisimov is handcuffed by Tort's system. In prior discussions at Kings board, consensus was he is worth mid 1st rounder, highest number thought of as perhaps 12th overall.
If we go with that, that's a 12 overall who is an F, who is a natural C you need, big and physical, against McIlrath who was a 10th overall, and is upwards of a year away, plus you are already getting 1 D (in Girardi).
Ranger 1st will likely be late 20s if we don't win. Boyle available now worth that.

Don't consider it a screw job.
Am trying to see if there is a comfortable fit on what you can offer, what you need, what you would take, and what I'm willing to pay.

I believe as indicated it is ballpark.

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02-10-2012, 01:33 PM
  #53
Clipitar
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Substituted Girardi for Staal.
Anisimov is handcuffed by Tort's system. In prior discussions at Kings board, consensus was he is worth mid 1st rounder, highest number thought of as perhaps 12th overall.
If we go with that, that's a 12 overall who is an F, who is a natural C you need, big and physical, against McIlrath who was a 10th overall, and is upwards of a year away, plus you are already getting 1 D (in Girardi).
Ranger 1st will likely be late 20s if we don't win. Boyle available now worth that.

Don't consider it a screw job.
Am trying to see if there is a comfortable fit on what you can offer, what you need, what you would take, and what I'm willing to pay.

I believe as indicated it is ballpark.
But do the Habs need Anisimov since they already have an arguably better (or equal if you prefer) carbon copy of him in Eller?

What I suggest you try to do is think of 2 assets, 3 at the most you'd like to swap for the Habs' 1st rounder. That should force you into realizing you have to part with greater, more essential assets.

Also, keep in mind I value Staal and McDonaugh higher than Girardi. I would have to see him reproduce this year's performance next season before agreeing to crystallize him into a #1 defender. I'm not willing to do this just yet, likeliness of a fluke year is still possible IMO.

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02-10-2012, 01:41 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Substituted Girardi for Staal.
Anisimov is handcuffed by Tort's system. In prior discussions at Kings board, consensus was he is worth mid 1st rounder, highest number thought of as perhaps 12th overall.
If we go with that, that's a 12 overall who is an F, who is a natural C you need, big and physical, against McIlrath who was a 10th overall, and is upwards of a year away, plus you are already getting 1 D (in Girardi).
Ranger 1st will likely be late 20s if we don't win. Boyle available now worth that.

Don't consider it a screw job.
Am trying to see if there is a comfortable fit on what you can offer, what you need, what you would take, and what I'm willing to pay.

I believe as indicated it is ballpark.
If the habs pick is top 5 they would need Staal in any deal for the pick. If you are not offering Staal there is no deal.

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02-10-2012, 04:25 PM
  #55
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
If the habs pick is top 5 they would need Staal in any deal for the pick. If you are not offering Staal there is no deal.
I'd be forced to consider that if the deal was Staal and ONLY Staal.
Don't think you want to go there.

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02-10-2012, 04:31 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
But do the Habs need Anisimov since they already have an arguably better (or equal if you prefer) carbon copy of him in Eller?

What I suggest you try to do is think of 2 assets, 3 at the most you'd like to swap for the Habs' 1st rounder. That should force you into realizing you have to part with greater, more essential assets.

Also, keep in mind I value Staal and McDonaugh higher than Girardi. I would have to see him reproduce this year's performance next season before agreeing to crystallize him into a #1 defender. I'm not willing to do this just yet, likeliness of a fluke year is still possible IMO.
Bold + I'm in no hurry to dump AA. I was under the impression you guys wanted size and grit!

Italic = That would not work because even if the top 5 guy is primo, he's still gonna typically be at least a year or more before he actually starts playing NHL. therefore, I have a limitation on what I can do. Good value, acceptable with reasonable overpayment in the right pieces, fine. Only my best pieces, non-starter.

Underline: Also value Staal and McDonaugh higher than Girardi, based on upside potential. However, you do wrong by him to suggest he is less than the real deal at what he is, a defensive stalwart. Being totally honest, the only real risk with him is with the number of shots he blocks, and if that style leads to injury. Beyond that, my friend, your reservations are unfounded.

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02-10-2012, 04:54 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I'd be forced to consider that if the deal was Staal and ONLY Staal.
Don't think you want to go there.
No I don't, but I understand your POV. Still, for Habs to move their potential lottery pick, there would have to be a substantial asset coming along Staal, if only because of the uncertainty factor around his concussion and the fact his game has yet to meet his own standards since he resumed playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Bold + I'm in no hurry to dump AA. I was under the impression you guys wanted size and grit!

Italic = That would not work because even if the top 5 guy is primo, he's still gonna typically be at least a year or more before he actually starts playing NHL. therefore, I have a limitation on what I can do. Good value, acceptable with reasonable overpayment in the right pieces, fine. Only my best pieces, non-starter.

Underline: Also value Staal and McDonaugh higher than Girardi, based on upside potential. However, you do wrong by him to suggest he is less than the real deal at what he is, a defensive stalwart. Being totally honest, the only real risk with him is with the number of shots he blocks, and if that style leads to injury. Beyond that, my friend, your reservations are unfounded.
I also think Girardi is a defensive stalwart, and this impression was already present prior to this year, but he simply isn't the player I'd be mainly looking for if I were to dangle a potential lottery pick.

No interest in AA, but because Habs already have Eller, not because I don't value his size & grit!

Again, you're not getting Habs' 1st for a package of 4-5 pieces, even if they're decent assets. Contract limit is one factor, but it mostly is the potential to loose out on a franchise type of player. Habs simply can't afford to take that chance for a bunch of complimentary pieces, even if they're quality pieces.


Last edited by Clipitar: 02-10-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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Old
02-10-2012, 04:57 PM
  #58
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Just face it guys. MTL first is unlikely to move unless we can grab a Franchise forward or a franchise prospect forward (a la huberdeau). Moreover, we don't really know if its going to be a lottery pick or not. The only available franchise players that are under contract for more than one year (exclude getzlaf) and are likely to be traded (probably not) I would consider to trade our first+ are in order: Nash and Staal.
I would also accept to deal our first+ for Huberdeau.

Since I don't see something like that happening, the only trade including MTL 1st would be a trade up or trade down one.

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02-10-2012, 06:22 PM
  #59
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
No I don't, but I understand your POV. Still, for Habs to move their potential lottery pick, there would have to be a substantial asset coming along Staal, if only because of the uncertainty factor around his concussion and the fact his game has yet to meet his own standards since he resumed playing.



I also think Girardi is a defensive stalwart, and this impression was already present prior to this year, but he simply isn't the player I'd be mainly looking for if I were to dangle a potential lottery pick.

No interest in AA, but because Habs already have Eller, not because I don't value his size & grit!

Again, you're not getting Habs' 1st for a package of 4-5 pieces, even if they're decent assets. Contract limit is one factor, but it mostly is the potential to loose out on a franchise type of player. Habs simply can't afford to take that chance for a bunch of complimentary pieces, even if they're quality pieces.
We're good.
You agree it's a good offer of "quality pieces", but you feel Montreal is best served today by going after the possible franchise player.

Not arguing with you as to your opinion, and your right to that choice.
Whether or not Habs interest are maximized by the one bright star, or by depth will remain to be seen, based on who is selected and how well they do.

Arguably, going with a franchise guy, if it is the right franchise guy, is probably better for you long term.
Doing it my way is probably better for you short term.

Good luck at the draft.

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Old
02-10-2012, 07:34 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Thank you!
This is the kind of thinking I was hoping for, in pushing the envelope.

Agree not sure I do this deal either.
Counter offer:

Girardi, Anisimov, Boyle, Woywitka + Stalman for Habs 2012 1st and 2013 2nd
Absolutely not. Nothing in that offers gets me to accept another call, sorry.

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02-11-2012, 08:11 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Absolutely not. Nothing in that offers gets me to accept another call, sorry.
will you make a counter offer based on Girardi as principal piece/main D, and no elite prospect (Krieder/Miller/Hagelin if you can still consider him a prospect/Fasth)

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02-11-2012, 09:03 AM
  #62
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
will you make a counter offer based on Girardi as principal piece/main D, and no elite prospect (Krieder/Miller/Hagelin if you can still consider him a prospect/Fasth)
You have to understand quantity does not get quality. Would you give Montreal your 1st rounder in 2012 for
D'arche, Campoli, and Nokelainen? Your 1st will be very late, almost a second, but we are offering you depth players who might help your team for the playoff run.

Seem like a fair deal? Of course not.

At this point in time, Montreal's 1st is looking like a lottery pick, a top 10 at worst. To get a shot at a lottery pick, you have to offer quality.

How about Boyle, McIlraith, and your 2012 1st and 2013 2nd for our 2012 1st?

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