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Old
10-25-2004, 11:18 AM
  #1
Pred303
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The Game Within The Game

just a thought,and correct me if this is of no interest,but conversation seems to be lagging,and we all want to be smarter fans i believe....

lots of hockey intelligence on these boards,thought it might be fun to dissect specific strategies within the game-the game within the game so to speak-to help others recognize what you're seeing on the ice and why you're seeing it....this is probably my favorite thing to watch...so i thought maybe we could take things one at a time,talk about the strategy behind them,talk about how you can recognize them when you see them on the ice,what their specific strengths/weaknesses are,how to attack them(what i was attempting to do with the 'pred special team thread'),and what the preds usually do or face....

i thought maybe we could take the sub-parts one at a time and cover them completely if people are interested...the sub areas i was thinking of were;
1)defensive schemes/formations
2)offensive schemes/formations
3)pp schemes/formations
4)pk schemes/formations
5)breakout schemes
6)forechecking schemes/systems
7)faceoff techniques/formations

think this would be a worthwhile exercise?if so let me know and i'll start something to get us going...

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10-25-2004, 11:23 AM
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nine_inch_fang
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Should be interesting.

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10-25-2004, 11:50 AM
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10-25-2004, 11:55 AM
  #4
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I would love to read about any of the things you mentioned. And if someone could, try slowing down the faceoff. I know it happens very fast, but how does the ref/linesman decide is someone should get thrown out, because I watch it and see him throw someone out, and then on the next drop I see no difference (and I feel it's me not knowing what to look for specifically) in what the two players do and yet, no one gets kicked out.

But that conversation can wait for it's time.

--qm29

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10-25-2004, 12:35 PM
  #5
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I'm all for it. shoot away my man.

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10-25-2004, 01:29 PM
  #6
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quartermaster29
I would love to read about any of the things you mentioned. And if someone could, try slowing down the faceoff. I know it happens very fast, but how does the ref/linesman decide is someone should get thrown out, because I watch it and see him throw someone out, and then on the next drop I see no difference (and I feel it's me not knowing what to look for specifically) in what the two players do and yet, no one gets kicked out.

But that conversation can wait for it's time.

--qm29
QM think of a face off like a "line of scrimmage", if someone jumps over that line "offsides" then the center of that team is kicked out of the faceoff and someone else has to replace him. If the player taking the faceoff comes across the dot early he is removed from the faceoff.

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10-25-2004, 01:30 PM
  #7
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I'm all for this thread but putting this stuff into words is tough. Explaining a breakout with out drawing it out is real tough.

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10-25-2004, 01:47 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
QM think of a face off like a "line of scrimmage", if someone jumps over that line "offsides" then the center of that team is kicked out of the faceoff and someone else has to replace him. If the player taking the faceoff comes across the dot early he is removed from the faceoff.
So "jumping offsides" is the only way someone will get kicked out of a faceoff?

--qm29

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Old
10-25-2004, 01:47 PM
  #9
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all right then...let's take faceoffs

there are actual rules governing faceoffs...the visiting player must place his stick on the ice first...once he does..if he flinches and moves that stick off ice he is thrown out of the circle...the home player has the advantage in that he reads where the stick of the visitor is placed and reacts accordingly...if the home player flinches and makes contact with the visitor's stick prior to the puck drop he's supposed to be thrown out....look at he faceoff circle lines,the german + in the center is for feet placement...either player that steps over that cross prior to the drop is thrown out....the other thing you can be thrown out for is movement amongst your other players once the faceoff is ready to be taken

faceoff techniques.....every centerman has his own little quirks in the faceoff circle...but bottomline there are three distinct different ways....one is the guy who simply tries to outquick the guy to the puck...probably the majority of centermen use this technique,especially at home(remember there is a difference between home and the road faceoff rules)...it's the simpliest,requires the less timing....many players use this method at home when they have the advantage of seeing where the opponent places his stick first...legwand,arkhipov method
a second method is the two hand pull....this is the strong man method as the faceoff guy is trying to just overpower the other guy and pull the puck backwards...used by many centermen on the road..since they begin with their stick on the ice..the adam hall,scott walker method
the third is the trickiest method....where the faceoff guy attempts to lift the opponents stick off the ice(not going for the puck but the stick)and turn,step in tie up the opposing centerman and kick the puck back to his guys....this is the method many home centermen use...greg johnson's method...it also requires the most timing and people who use this tend to get thrown out much more than other methods(because there's now two things to time-when to move the stick and when to step)

faceoff formations are simple....there are really three different strategies that depend on the score,what zone you're taking the faceoff in,and the probability of whether you think you'll win the faceoff...every team has a different name for them when they're setting their plays...but it all boils down to 1)conservative(where your dmen line up slightly deeper and their first move is back to avoid getting beat back)..2)regular...where the dmen line up slightly closer and the forwards pinch in on the drop....3)aggressive...where you leave one dman back and bring 3 men up even with the faceoff guy...some teams will split one man out wide in an aggressive faceoff formation in the neutral zone with the idea of breaking into the zone

lots of little things to watch on faceoffs..wish we could win some

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10-25-2004, 02:31 PM
  #10
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Thanks p303 (and trig). I have noticed the placement of teammates before and note in the defence zone a lot of teams use the aggressive formation, placing the "extra" one "in front" of the goalie.

--qm29

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Old
10-25-2004, 02:48 PM
  #11
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that's exactly what most teams do q-master....conservative in their own and the neutral zone,aggresive in the offensive zone....to match up to that the team taking the faceoff in their own zone will normally move three guys up net side ...but what that does is creat the perfect onetimer from the point off the faceoff situation...if the center wins the faceoff cleanly back,that one dman has positioned himself where he just cranks the puck off the draw..and the two wingmen lined up on the strong side are in perfect placement for deflections or driving the net..the farthest out wingman has the responsibility of driving for the far post,while the inside man is to drive to the near post when the faceoff is won...you can just figure...every faceoff lost in your defensive zone= 1 shot given up/1 good scoring opportunity

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10-25-2004, 04:01 PM
  #12
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trig...nomore..didn't(don't)you guys coach junior hockey?....what other draw methods did you teach?

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10-25-2004, 08:08 PM
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When in your defensive zone do you worry about where the puck goes after you win the face off or is backwards all that really matters?

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10-25-2004, 08:23 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang
When in your defensive zone do you worry about where the puck goes after you win the face off or is backwards all that really matters?

On a defensive zone face-off, the first thing is placement....keeping three players between the faceoff and the net(two d-men and a forward for example) and one back toward the corner. ideally, you'll try to win it back to that corner man...from there he can take it behind the net and everyone can regroup. should the opposing center win the draw, the "wall" men will position themselves to deflect any shot from the point.

p303...it's hard to teach something like draws. there are fundamentals, but it seems to me that a lot of guys just "have it" and others don't. personally, i generally used the method you referred to as "the legwand," but everyone's got their preference.

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10-25-2004, 08:23 PM
  #15
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Another face-off strategy:

Eliminate the opponent. Greg Johnson uses this strat alot, he'll tie up the stick, then spin his butt around, and effectively block the opponent fromt the puck...then use the skate to kick it in the direction he wants.


Let's not forget: The centerman is not the only player responsible for winning the draw. Alot falls to the wingers and D when a second effort is required to gain posession.

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Old
10-25-2004, 08:42 PM
  #16
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Something else that I have seen some centers/lines use is tying up the stick while one of the wingers swoops in and gets the puck instead of the center kicking the puck.

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10-25-2004, 08:44 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang
Something else that I have seen some centers/lines use is tying up the stick while one of the wingers swoops in and gets the puck instead of the center kicking the puck.

that's a risky one, but yeah..you do see it. the problem is that..while you're tying up your opponent's stick...you're taking yourself out of the play, at the same time.

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Old
10-25-2004, 09:21 PM
  #18
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all great points...normally when you're backed up into your own defensive zone taking a faceoff the safest thing is to draw it away from the center of the ice...back toward your corner and away from the net..or even straight toward the halfboard..anywhere but towards the net...at least that's what i always like to see a centerman do..anything to keep away from that onetimer from the dman back there waiting..

another thing not talked about much is when you have a lefthanded guy taking the faceoff against a righthander....sometimes fouls up a lot of people not used to seeing righty's since a larger percentage tend to be lefty's...this makes the guy who tries to raise the other guys stick and pick the puck back very effective usually(since the sticks are on the same side facing each other)...just something else to watch for

timing of your faceoff wins is much more important than overall winning percentage too...you can figure every win in the offensive zone equal a shot,while a loss in the defensive zone also equals an enemy shot...funny how faceoff percentages wins are always much much higher in your own defensive zone for virtually every team..shows how much winning faceoffs is really concentration and effort....the neutral zone faceoffs tend to be much less important obviously

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10-25-2004, 11:58 PM
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I usually try going going for the testies...they won't do **** when the jewels are being dangeled... :lol

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10-26-2004, 12:52 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsMan
Let's not forget: The centerman is not the only player responsible for winning the draw. Alot falls to the wingers and D when a second effort is required to gain posession.
That is a great point PM - too often the blame is leveled solely on the center when in fact the wingers fail to come in and help gain possession - as a center, I appreciate any effort to deflect criticism

Another thing that you'll see when you're taking draws in the defensive zone, especially late in the game, is that you'll try to play the faceoff to the boards and put a center in that is strong-handed to that side, i.e., if the faceoff is in the left circle, you want a left-handed center to try to draw the puck back to the corner and keep it out of the center of the ice.

Also, a lot of good centers will play possum on draws early in the game in order to get a read on the moves of the opposing center - that way, when it comes down to crunch time and a critical faceoff, you have some idea of what the other center wants to do and you can counter that, especially when it's in the defensive zone. Often times you just want to tie up the other center's stick so that he cannot win the faceoff cleanly - this breaks up any set play that the other team might try to run.

Finally, another rarely used move is to just poke the puck between the legs of the opposing center and step around him to get the puck - a lot of times you can get an easy set-up to a winger that breaks towards the net if you can do this cleanly.

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10-26-2004, 06:08 AM
  #21
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one more thiing..shots off the draw...you rarely see it tried or work...but you'll see a lefty sometimes(have seen gretzky score at least 5-6 times and lemieux a couple of times) shooting off the draw when the faceoff is in the left circle in the offensive zone...it's a thing of beauty,when it works

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10-26-2004, 07:23 AM
  #22
triggrman
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I think the biggest problem on faceoff's is preventing the wingers from getting to the point quickly enough without getting called for interference or getting the winger out to the point without being tied up. The Predators are decent at this but to a fault they neglect the possession of the puck.

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10-26-2004, 08:41 AM
  #23
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good discussion on what is probably the simpliest strategy(just shows how complex even the easy things are)

thought i'd start the next discussion today...something a little more complex

defensive concepts(in your own zone)...what they are,what they try to do,when they're played,how to recognize them,and eachs strengths and weaknesses,and therefore how to attack them

each team obviously has a plan on defense....starts with their forechecking plan against other teams breakout plan,but when the puck crosses the blueline into your zone then a team transitions to their "half ice" defensive scheme....good defensive teams make this transition from full ice pressure(some zone variation many times)back into their defense smoothly....this transition window period is a highly dangerous oftentimes overlooked or not talked about...but this is where defensive zone breakdowns occur more times than not...some guy doesn't get picked up,some guy doesn't get back,some guy loses his man in the transition and someone else has to take his man leaving his open,etc...good teams make the transition

i thought maybe first we'd talk about defensive schemes in your own zone....

really there are three basic defensive schemes here(with some team to team variations of course);

1)Tight point defense(also heard called tight point high or point high,but they're the same scheme)....here the defensive team's wingers play up close to the defensivemen on both points at all times....taking away the point shot,taking away the point to point swing pass,completely trying to eliminate the opposing d-men from the offense....obviously this is used when the opposing team has really good offensive d-men....whilke the wingers are out front chasing the point the two defensive men and center are playing man to man coverage down low,with the weak side dman always having low slot,in front of the net primary responsibility...easy to recognize this defense...just watch out front when the puck goes in low on the boards...if the weak side forwrd stays out on the weak side point close,and doesn't fall back into the high slot to help out down low...well then they're playing tight point high...this defense is very effective against good dmen,many teams play this against us,especially when zids or kimmo are on the ice even strength....where you try to attack this defense is in the high slot....with the wingers out high covering the point,and one dman always trying to stay in front of the net,it leaves the high slot vulnerable....so smart centermen and forwards are constantly looking to move into the high slot to get a one timer

2)collapsing defense....here you have just the opposite concept,where instead of trying to take away the point shot you're trying to make the opponent take the perimeter shot.......when the puck goes in deep both forwards collapse back toward the high slot area,your d-men stay closer to the net and don't chase in the corners as much...basically you're packing the front of your own net with all 5 guys when the puck is out front,and 3 or 4 guys when the puck is in the corner...used against teams with killer power forwards(and hopefully no offensive skilled d-men)..eastern teams like philly and toronto see a lot of this used against them(we played it almost exclusively when we faced them last year)....scheme is basically to let the team have low percentage shots from out on the perimeter and then to clear the rebound...easy to spot this d...the read to identify this defense quickly is the wings out front...watch when the puck goes in deep,if they both back into the highslot-bingo they're playing a collapsing defense....most teams,especially with skilled offensive dmen,simply try to work the puck to high slot and try to use the high traffic in front against the defensive team....we see this very little when zids-kimmo are on ice(understandably)..but oftentimes teams use this against our third and fourth lines...really makes it difficult for forwards to stickhandle in tight

3)most teams call this the staggered defense,also known as the combination defense....here teams use portions or a combination of both the collapsing and tight point....basically here a team plays the strong side point up tight with the winger responsible for the weakside point sliding back into the high slot area to provide support against the forwards down low...this takes away the high slot area that teams try to find against the tight point defense,and basically gives you 4 defenders guarding the 3 forwards down low.....when the puck goes to the weak side point the winger races out to pressure himwhile the other winger now backs off his point man and now covers the high slot....teams attack this defnse by making quick point to point passes reversing the flow of the defense...if the puck is reversed quickly and cleanly enough it frees up the weak side point for a quick one timer from the point...

again the reads for each of these defensive schemes are the wingers out front and how they play the dman at the point...puck goes down low,wingers both back off the points-collapsing,one winger stays tight on the strongside point man-staggered,both wingers stay tight-tightpoint

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10-26-2004, 10:44 AM
  #24
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sorry,meant to stimulate conversation on this,not stifle it

anyone else have reads on these defensive concepts/strategies,like how to recognize them quickly or tips on how to attack them offensively or play them better defensively?...

bottomline is that these 3 defensive strategies are what teams have done for 50 years in their own zone

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10-26-2004, 10:54 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
sorry,meant to stimulate conversation on this,not stifle it

anyone else have reads on these defensive concepts/strategies,like how to recognize them quickly or tips on how to attack them offensively or play them better defensively?...

bottomline is that these 3 defensive strategies are what teams have done for 50 years in their own zone
I understand the neutral zone trap ("the trap"), but how about some discussion on it. Not necessarily on how it's such a great strategy, but on its details. Do you know much about its history? I know NJ is blamed for it, but doesn't it go back farther than that?

I watch the game and understand and notice most of what you say (the faceoff stuff was all new to me), but this is good info as I've never played the game.

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