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Old
10-26-2004, 11:25 AM
  #26
Pred303
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actually crossxcheck the neutral zone trap wasn't created by the devils like many think it was...it really seems to have been invented by the swedes to counter the russian talent in the early 70's....their coach tried to come up with a system that neutralized the superior russian talent of the old red army team....it worked...and the devils coaching staff recognized it's capability from watching films(of an old swede-russian game)to prepare to play the russian national team in an exhibition game...we do need to talk thru these forechcking systems,because amazingly to me most people don't really understand the trap only they know it's 'bad for hockey'

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10-26-2004, 11:39 AM
  #27
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excellent post about the "in your zone" defensive schemes.
The questions I have is about utilization of these.

Does each line have its own scheme, or is it always key off the opposing d-men on the ice at the time?

Does the speed of your forwards or the offensive capacity of the opposing d-men overall govern yor scheme?

Do you change your scheme when your are a point up in the third , or a point down?

How does 4 on 4 hockey in the overtime change these schemes?

How much does goalies style....butterfly, positional, athletic have to do with your scheme....or if goalie hates obstructive views [here do you use the collapsing sparingly]?

If you have strong net pounder [Bertuzzi, Holmgren come to mind] usually paired with an offensive minded point man....how do you protect against both?


No answers, but many questions....some, basic, I know, but hopefully will stimulate discussion....

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10-26-2004, 12:06 PM
  #28
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Would it be accurate to say that scheme #1 is man on man were as #2 is zone.

I can see how #3 would be easy to break if you have a team that can pass well. It seems that the defense could wind up doing a lot of running around trying to keep up. This leads me to another question. If your defense is running around but the puck doesn’t wind up in your net can you quickly move into #2 scheme to calm things down?

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10-26-2004, 12:25 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
sorry,meant to stimulate conversation on this,not stifle it

anyone else have reads on these defensive concepts/strategies,like how to recognize them quickly or tips on how to attack them offensively or play them better defensively?...

bottomline is that these 3 defensive strategies are what teams have done for 50 years in their own zone
Grumpy Grumpy

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10-26-2004, 12:50 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
sorry,meant to stimulate conversation on this,not stifle it

anyone else have reads on these defensive concepts/strategies,like how to recognize them quickly or tips on how to attack them offensively or play them better defensively?...

bottomline is that these 3 defensive strategies are what teams have done for 50 years in their own zone

Not at all, Pred303... I read the defense post with great interest. I want to see a game now so I can apply my knowledge. It's just I can't add even a half penny to the thoughts. I like handtricks questions and once they were posed I realized that had I put more effort into it, they were indeed my own questions. Had I been at home and trying to ignore my wife, I would probably had asked them myself! As it is, I am at work and trying to ignore my boss staring at me over my shoulder. Oops... gotta run for now!

--qm29

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Old
10-26-2004, 01:45 PM
  #31
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well let's see...

first fangs..it's complicated...all of these are man to man..and all are zone....confusing i know,but really they're all combinations...they're more 'matchup zone' kinda things...really in each of the three types the dmen play an area,they might chase the forward in their corner,but when the puck goes to the other side they revert to having the primary responsibility for the front of the net while the other dman chases down in his corner....the wingers play man-to-man IN their zone in all the systems,however if their dman goes down low and a forward rotates out to the point,the winger is now guarding the forward who's out on the point...now the centermen basically plays a pure man to man....unless his man(the opposing centerman)exchanges with one of the point dmen,in which case the center now chases the dman

and as far as what is popular i would hazzard to guess that 80% of on ice in the zone defense is the staggered(or combination)defense...because it's a half measure that defends against both the point shot and gives help down low...but you're right...good passing out front is the base way to attack this like you say though

well handtricker,let's see;

yes each line can have it's own defensive scheme,and yes the things that determine which is your favorite to play includes all the things you mentioned,i.e.your team speed,your team personnel,the opposing team strengths etc etc..it's why you might see one type of defense used when you're out there against the bertuzzi type line and maybe another type for the 3rd or 4th line in the same game.....

....normally though the 'in your zone' defensive concepts don't change all that much based on the score,that's mainly where you change your defensive pressure and offensive pressure to increase/layback...now you would change some if you were way behind and trying to run a collapsing type-low pressure on the puck in the defensive zone type of scheme of course...the other systems pressure the puck more and tend to speed up the game

and as for the question about what if a team has a great pounding forward...and a great point shot too.. .that's what's really behind scientific line construction...to present these problems....actually though that's when and why most teams play a staggered type of defense most of the time...to try their best to cover both...

i've enver thought about goalie 'styles' determining what concept defense you use...but i see your point....stand up type goalies tend to be weakest on and therefore hate low shots,and therefore traffic more(of course ALL goalies hate ALL traffic)...so i guess that could factor in in not playing a collapsing type defense

and that's why 4 on 4 hockey changes the world.....it's much deeper than the simplistic quote petey throws out there that "now there's more room"...it's that teams now have to play a pure man to man all over the ice...which all of a sudden makes picks and stunts and weaves that much more effective...4 on 4 throws out all these defensive schemes honestly-it's every dman for himself when that happens

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10-27-2004, 08:36 AM
  #32
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thought maybe today i'd throw out the different forechecking and defensive pressure schemes for discussion...

bottomline,of course, there are two types of forechecking systems...man-to-man( includes the 2-1-2,the 1-2-2,and the 3-1-1) and the zone trap(includes the neutral zone trap,the low trap,the high trap,the left wing lock,and the weak side lock)....both have some man-to-man and some zone tendencies...but let me try to verbalize each of the different concepts,what they are trying to do,how to attack them,and how to quickly recognize them when you see them

first on the standard man-to-man;

1)1-2-2....this is the base forechecking system for every team...the center is normally the first forechecker(can be a really good winger like walks,but has to be amongst your quickest best skaters)...the first forechecker is trying to get in a situation where it's him against a defender primary puckcarrier deep in the opponents zone(why?,because he's normally faster and quicker and a better puckhandler than any defender)...the wingers in the 1-2-2 lay back just inside the blue line,trying to prevent the quick outlet pass up to the neutral zone,while the dmen pinch forward to the red line to cover the wingers deployed there...center has man coverage everywhere,while the wings and d-men have zone coverage(each taking half the ice)..fairly easy to recognize by watching the first forechecker,if he stays with the puck it's a standard man forechecking scheme

2)2-1-2...team sends two forecheckers deep,a high presure system normally only seen anymore when a team is trying to gamble and come from behind....trying to doubleteam the puck carrier deep in his zone and the middle man is trying to read to intercept the outlet pass when the pressure comes from the doubleteam

3)3-1-1...all out chase the puck pressure,normally only seen in highschool,peewee type hockey anymore,because it tends to give up so many odd man rushes the other way if broken

now traps...most hockey fans complicate these too much,but the idea is really simple for each
1)neutral zone trap....everyone hates it they say,not one in ten can really tell you what it looks like...all the nzt really is...is a system that is disguised to look eactly like the standard 1-2-2 forechecking system...you have your lead forechecker down low,the wingers are back at the line just off the boards...the dmen are at the blueline right back behind them...the system tries to force the puckcarrier to the outside to either board where the winger stops him just att he neutral zone...meanwhile the center(or whoever the lead forechecker is)simply plays the pass between the guy who is now trapped against the boards in the NZ(his primary job being to eliminate the cross ice pass to the other defensiveman)....this is the trap,taking away this guy's options...basically if trapped he has four options...retreat and try again,try to make the cross ice pass to the other dman(where he runs the risk that the lead forechecker who is playing this very thing intercepts the pass and breaks in alone),try to pass into the center(where either the lead forechecker or the weak side winger are both looking for),or chip the puck off the boards around the winger who has come up to check him head on(which is one of the things the trap is trying to achieve,that is making the offensive team chip their way into the offnesive zone and not breaking in with speed)....to recognize this as a fan..watch the lead forechecker when the breakout attempt starts...if the lead forechecker doesn't take a man,but instead skates straight back to assume a spot somewhere between the dmen near the center of the ice,well then that team is trapping..

....the only real way to avoid this is to avoid the trap(which is why teams disguise it to look like a standard 1-2-2)...i.e. the breakout man recognizes this before he skates into the neutral zone and reverses the puck before the lead forechecker gets between them...this way you might catch the lead forechecker overreacting and get into the neutral zone without him being able to recover and close the trap off......once into the trap,teams try to chip the puck around the winger forechecker past the redline,then to chip the puck around the dman into the offensive zone....all this chipping to break the trap(and therefore very little breaking into the offensive zone with speed)slows the game way down(which is exactly why MINN,NJ and half the teams in the league do it when they get a lead in the 3rd period,to shorten the game).....it's so basic i see no way that the league can outlaw it to speed the game up as you hear some people call for

2)the low trap....exact same concept as the neutral zone trap but the trap is moved way forward to the area between the faceoff circles and the goal....used in an all out situation to put pressure way forward and create turnovers

3)the high trap..again the same scheme,but the trap takes place between the faceoff circles and the blueline less pressure/risk than the low trap but more than the neutral zone one

4)leftwing lock...a different zone trap type of scheme(made famous by the 1995 wings)...here you really have a different formation....the left wing,and the two dmen are each given zone responsibility for 1/3rd of the ice(divide the ice in three parts mentally)....they each simply play a zone in their area,while the two other forwards(the RW and the C) are free to forecheck everywhere....creates lots of double teams all over the ice..and encourages these two forecheckers to read and take wild chances(to recognize the LW lock look at the backmen,if you see the three deepest defenders playing a line across,they're in the leftwing lock)...personally i always just check the two defensivemen,if one of them is playing in the center ice area instead of his normal position near the boards,there is a good chance they're in the left wing lock)

basically all other traps are simply offshoots of these concepts


Last edited by Pred303: 10-27-2004 at 01:19 PM.
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Old
10-27-2004, 10:35 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
just a thought,and correct me if this is of no interest,but conversation seems to be lagging,and we all want to be smarter fans i believe....

lots of hockey intelligence on these boards,thought it might be fun to dissect specific strategies within the game-the game within the game so to speak-to help others recognize what you're seeing on the ice and why you're seeing it....this is probably my favorite thing to watch...so i thought maybe we could take things one at a time,talk about the strategy behind them,talk about how you can recognize them when you see them on the ice,what their specific strengths/weaknesses are,how to attack them(what i was attempting to do with the 'pred special team thread'),and what the preds usually do or face....

i thought maybe we could take the sub-parts one at a time and cover them completely if people are interested...the sub areas i was thinking of were;
1)defensive schemes/formations
2)offensive schemes/formations
3)pp schemes/formations
4)pk schemes/formations
5)breakout schemes
6)forechecking schemes/systems
7)faceoff techniques/formations

think this would be a worthwhile exercise?if so let me know and i'll start something to get us going...
I have been meaning to ask you this....Where in 303 do you sit. My wife and I sit in 303.

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10-27-2004, 10:49 AM
  #34
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tulsytrid....my son and i have g-6/7(right behind sec-bob and his signs) ,where are you at?

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10-27-2004, 01:14 PM
  #35
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row b i am the one who comes in late some times in the medical scrubs.

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10-27-2004, 01:27 PM
  #36
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117p has entered the building ... thanks pred303 for the notice of this board

hockey? hockey here? in nashville? sounded great back in 1997, didn't it? sure do miss it right now ...

i'll spend some time updating myself with the posts and then pass along my lack of knowledge ...

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10-27-2004, 01:35 PM
  #37
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pred303...I take the paucity of discussion of forechecking schemes is due to the thoroughness of your explantation.

A few of my typical questions:

Does the trickery behind the net with the dman faking [or giving] to a circling winger represent an attempt to throw off the intial forechecker's pressure, or something else?

Can you only set up the forecheck scheme if the puck is past the baseline and the play is "set up" or can you still have time to institue it on a steal at the halfboards?

Does a good puckhandling goalie [Brodeur comes to mind] that has a good outlet pass to the blue line throw havoc into a forecheck scheme?

Is the type of forecheck scheme based more on the speed of your personnel, or the puck handling ability of the opposing dmen?

Can you assume, every time you see the puck being chipped up along the glass, over the winger at the blueline....some kind of trap is being employed?

Does 4 on 4 change things basically to a 2 up and 2 back, man on man scheme, or are there zone variations that can be run in this circumstance?

-----

welcome 117p....happy as h3ll to see ya....

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10-27-2004, 02:03 PM
  #38
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What you all have to remember is hockey is a game of counteractions and capitalizing off mistakes. It's not like football where plays are set, all schemes are flexable and sometimes being out of position is the best position (see Brett Hull).

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10-27-2004, 02:09 PM
  #39
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hey great to see you 117p,some great hockey talk over here thanks to nomore,smokeyclause,crossxcheck,triggerman et.al.

handtrick...
1)that crossover behind the net is part of a breakout scheme of course...basically when we do that we're trying to read reaction by the forecheckers....for if the forechecker starts to go with the center/winger sweeping thru...well then you leave the puck for the dman to break the other way of course....one of the things they use it for is as a tipoff to what forechecking scheme the enemy is using...sometimes just by the reaction of the lead forechecker to this quick sweep thru you can tell whether they're playing straightup man to man...or whether they're disguising it as the normal 1-2-2 and playing the trap....in fact that's the number one purpose of this little breakout move....they read it like this...if the lead forechecker goes with legwand,or johnson or whoever sweeps thru...well then you know or can assume we're facing a man to man normal 1-2-2 forechecking scheme...and then the dman probably doesn't have to worry about the trap when he moves the puck up...but if the lead forechecker doesn't move...ahha...then the center sweeping thru knows they might be playing a trap and trying to get us to carry the puck into it.....so then he might be able to avoid the doubleteam

2)most teams set up their forechecking scheme once the puck crosses the goalline,that becomes the signal to break to your forechecking spot..it's why teams preach to their players about 'getting the puck in deep'...hard to set up the trap if the puck doesn't go in deep,but not impossible of course..one of the real problems with trapping teams is that oftentimes they don't depend on offense at all..their sole goal when they have the puck might be to simply get the puck deep,set up their trap and try to score off steals/turnovers/odd man rushes created by their trap....makes for a painfully slow(and almost always lowscoring)game....

3)a good puckhandling goalie does certainly can make it rougher on all forechecking systems....the ones that clear the puck quickly and make passes all the way up to the halfboards really complicate things....many times you just don't have time to set up your system agianst this type of guy...but causing the goalie to rush things and make longer passes also many times leads to the goaltender making his own passing mistakes..

4)weak puckhandling dmen are always prime targets to a forechecking system(most of our fans just don't realize how weak we were here in many years past)...but teams normally develop their own preferrences based primarily on their own personnel of course....we are blessed with several excellent forecheckers(legwnad,walker,orszagh,sully,johnson all come to mind)which is why we can play the 1-2-2 system we like most all the time...teams with an abundance of slower type forwards typically love to trap(hides lack of overall individual speed)

5)not everytime you see the puck chipped along the boards can you assume you're facing some form of trap...but many times that is true...chip and go around a trap is the best anyone's come up with attacking it honestly

6)4 on 4 changes everything.....both concepts in the defensive zone and concepts for defensive pressure....basically in a 4 on 4 situation all you can really do is choose a man and stay with him man-to-man....hard to double team with that much spacing....once teams get in a 4 on 4 situation every man is basically responsible for his own man...this causes dmen to back off their own guy,since they know they won't get help if beaten.....this is what really causes 4 on 4 to fly around the ice more than anything else,forwards are just given so much more room by the guy covering them


of course you're right triggerman...they're all just schemes/plans and concepts to get you in favorable situations....the team that makes the fewest mistakes,almost always wins....of course,good schemes increase the chance the opposing team makes mistakes


Last edited by Pred303: 10-27-2004 at 02:25 PM.
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10-27-2004, 02:19 PM
  #40
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pred303: glad you post here now. your hockey knowledge far exceeds mine and please keep the info coming. I might not reply much but this is some very good stuff!

One question/comment that I have right now is do I recall correctly that the dead things used the trap against us in the playoffs when they had a lead??? If so would that explain what I thought was an increased amount of "dump and chase" by the preds?


Last edited by crossxcheck: 10-27-2004 at 02:22 PM.
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10-27-2004, 02:35 PM
  #41
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Hey Nomore or Smokey...what about making this a sticky thread so we can refer back to it if we want to check on a prior detail discussed, as this is one of the more informative threads around?

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10-27-2004, 02:39 PM
  #42
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shoot crossxcheck...just means i'm way older than you

yeah detroit went to the trap just as soon as they got the lead.....they virtually always trapped last year once they got ahead and we saw it in the 3rd periods of all 4 games we lost...

most of the time when we chipped the puck in the zone late it was from trying to work around the trap at the red or then the blueline like you say....but of course chipping the puck around the dman at the blue line isn't the same as dump and chase...the funny thing about 'dump and chase' is that you are taught to always read what the other teams doing when you approach the blueline...if their dmen are standing at the blueline you're taught to not risk the turnover at the blueline but dump the puck and let your wingers outrace their dmen to the puck since the wingers are faster,quicker,and the dmen have to turn to chase back to the corners..you didn't see this(dump and chase) in the older days near as often...why? because the dmen NEVER played out as far as the blueline under normal circumstances(for several reasons..probably the main one was you were only playing two d-man lines for one,so dmen weren't near as fresh or rested....plus it was just part of the defensive awakening the league had in trying to slow down the oiler type offenses)

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10-27-2004, 02:42 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
shoot crossxcheck...just means i'm way older than you

yeah detroit went to the trap just as soon as they got the lead.....they virtually always trapped last year once they got ahead and we saw it in the 3rd periods of all 4 games we lost...

most of the time when we chipped the puck in the zone late it was from trying to work around the trap at the red or then the blueline like you say....but of course chipping the puck around the dman at the blue line isn't the same as dump and chase...the funny thing about 'dump and chase' is that you are taught to always read what the other teams doing when you approach the blueline...if their dmen are standing at the blueline you're taught to not risk the turnover at the blueline but dump the puck and let your wingers outrace their dmen to the puck since the wingers are faster,quicker,and the dmen have to turn to chase back to the corners..you didn't see this(dump and chase) in the older days near as often...why? because the dmen NEVER played out as far as the blueline under normal circumstances(for several reasons..probably the main one was you were only playing two d-man lines for one,so dmen weren't near as fresh or rested....plus it was just part of the defensive awakening the league had in trying to slow down the oiler type offenses)
it also comes from that fact that I have never played hockey.

you know actually the "dump and chase" I referred to was on the PP. It seemed like that's all we did.

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10-27-2004, 02:48 PM
  #44
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dump and chase as a regular habit when you're on the pp is a poor way of doing business for sure...if you cann't carry the puck into the zone then...well you stink lol...

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10-27-2004, 03:19 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
dump and chase as a regular habit when you're on the pp is a poor way of doing business for sure...if you cann't carry the puck into the zone then...well you stink lol...

It's a means to get around the fact that your forwards are smaller..but quicker..than the opposing team's. Ultimately, we didn't have the size to go up against guys like Lang, Shanahan and even Holmstrom and we were never able to compensate. The idea is that it's too hard to carry in without getting stood up at the offensive zone blue line in situations like that...so if the puck is dumped into the corner, the speedy wingers can get in and a PP configuration(triangle, etc) can be set up. We just weren't winning those battles, but throughout the year that was the system we used the most...and had to, when you consider that on our number one PP unit, only the center was usually even over 6 feet:

Walker- 5'10
Sullivan- 5'9
Timonen-5'10
Zidlicky- 5'8

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10-27-2004, 03:34 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
It's a means to get around the fact that your forwards are smaller..but quicker..than the opposing team's. Ultimately, we didn't have the size to go up against guys like Lang, Shanahan and even Holmstrom and we were never able to compensate. The idea is that it's too hard to carry in without getting stood up at the offensive zone blue line in situations like that...so if the puck is dumped into the corner, the speedy wingers can get in and a PP configuration(triangle, etc) can be set up. We just weren't winning those battles, but throughout the year that was the system we used the most...and had to, when you consider that on our number one PP unit, only the center was usually even over 6 feet:

Walker- 5'10
Sullivan- 5'9
Timonen-5'10
Zidlicky- 5'8
Umm...Zidlicky's 5' 11",

but your point remains the same.

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10-27-2004, 03:35 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperSniper
Umm...Zidlicky's 5' 11",

but your point remains the same.

hm, for some reason i thought he was 5'8 or 5'9. brain fart.

you're really into attempting to discredit me today, aren't you?

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10-27-2004, 04:48 PM
  #48
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not arguing at all that were're awfully small with that lineup....but size shouldn't figure as much as far as carrying into the zone...quickness should compensate when you have an outnumbered situation,quickness should force teams to play looser at the blueline(to avoid getting beat and causing an odd man rush situation)..the single biggest improvement our pp had during the year over previous years was being able to carry the puck into the zone and then get set up saving several seconds each time,over the dump in the corner and pass it back out to the point method....our problem for years was that legwand or timonen were the only ones capable of halfway consistently stickhandling into the zone...now most of the year we were successful at doing this(carrying the puck into the zone that is) a higher percentage of time than ever before...then we got zidlicky

personally i felt this is where we missed zids the most last year in the games against detroit...adding him to the mix of being able to stickhandle was one of our main weapons..and without him you could really see it...zids going down changed everything....by the second game detroit really recognized this i think and applied more pressure at the blueline...no telling what would have happend in this series if we'd have had zids on the pp in games 1,2,and 6 if the truth be known because detroit didn't face our pp from last year,they faced the one from year before last

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10-27-2004, 09:01 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Pred303
actually crossxcheck the neutral zone trap wasn't created by the devils like many think it was...it really seems to have been invented by the swedes to counter the russian talent in the early 70's....their coach tried to come up with a system that neutralized the superior russian talent of the old red army team....it worked...and the devils coaching staff recognized it's capability from watching films(of an old swede-russian game)to prepare to play the russian national team in an exhibition game...we do need to talk thru these forechcking systems,because amazingly to me most people don't really understand the trap only they know it's 'bad for hockey'
Actually, I read an article ran by TSN that the trap was originally created for an all out offensive effort. It was created in Sweden, but its original purposes were for an offensive scheme, not a defensive one. Obviously, since then, coaches have recognized the benefits of slowing the game down, especially when your team has glaring defeciences in your game. You don't have to be good to play the trap, just smart and persistent. If you work hard, mistakes will happen, and the smart teams (see the 2003 Cup finals) will capitalize on those mistakes every time.

Personally, I feel the key to success in forechecking is speed. If you have speed, your forechecking will succeed. Just look at when teams play the Sharks, and us for that matter....Our defense may not be the most rock-solid group in the league, but for the last few years we have performed over-par in the GA department. Why? We use our speed to make other teams cough the puck up.

This is a good thread. Thumbs up to Pred303 for breaking this down for all of us to use as a reference. If we could, I'd like to go further and examine the Predators and their weaknesses using these strategies, etc. We all know what our teams problems are - Faceoffs, size, defensive ability....How do we get better? Can we get better with the personell that we currently have? I'm not sure we can do much about our faceoff defeciency. One would hope that a bottom liner could be added to the lineup to help fill the faceoff void in key situations. Jason Krog was let go by the Ducks this year, and a player like him would be more than sufficient to fill a 4th line role with high priority faceoff time on the side. On the same token, who do we bench to start him? I think this year hiatus from hockey will answer a lot of questions for this organization, for good or worse, and who will remain with this team.

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10-28-2004, 07:37 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
Actually, I read an article ran by TSN that the trap was originally created for an all out offensive effort. It was created in Sweden, but its original purposes were for an offensive scheme, not a defensive one. Obviously, since then, coaches have recognized the benefits of slowing the game down, especially when your team has glaring defeciences in your game. You don't have to be good to play the trap, just smart and persistent. If you work hard, mistakes will happen, and the smart teams (see the 2003 Cup finals) will capitalize on those mistakes every time.

Personally, I feel the key to success in forechecking is speed. If you have speed, your forechecking will succeed. Just look at when teams play the Sharks, and us for that matter....Our defense may not be the most rock-solid group in the league, but for the last few years we have performed over-par in the GA department. Why? We use our speed to make other teams cough the puck up.

This is a good thread. Thumbs up to Pred303 for breaking this down for all of us to use as a reference. If we could, I'd like to go further and examine the Predators and their weaknesses using these strategies, etc. We all know what our teams problems are - Faceoffs, size, defensive ability....How do we get better? Can we get better with the personell that we currently have? I'm not sure we can do much about our faceoff defeciency. One would hope that a bottom liner could be added to the lineup to help fill the faceoff void in key situations. Jason Krog was let go by the Ducks this year, and a player like him would be more than sufficient to fill a 4th line role with high priority faceoff time on the side. On the same token, who do we bench to start him? I think this year hiatus from hockey will answer a lot of questions for this organization, for good or worse, and who will remain with this team.

me and enoch will never shut up about jason krog! when the cba is settled, sign him!

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