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Old
10-29-2004, 11:49 AM
  #76
nine_inch_fang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
i don't know what they were calling it fangs,i didn't see what they said....we tended to run all three types of basic offensive sets during a game last year,depending on the line we had on the ice usually...with sully on ice we tend to run the behind the net scheme more(becasue he has the quickness to get there with the puck)...and in that you have the one winger(or center) in the high slot which gives you the look of three men out high(i.e. that winger in the high slot and the two point men)....when leggy-sully-walks skated together or with the leggy-erat-orszagh we ran the overload quite a bit mixed with the behind the net(if the puckcarrier could get set up there)...when you're running overload you also have a forward sitting in the high slot(on the strongside)and therefore generally three men out high....the hall-hartnell-whoever line and the 4th line tended to run the crash the net scheme more....leaving only two guys high at the points generally
It was probably when they were running the "overload". It's the scheme that would pizz everyone off that Legwand was just skating around in front of the net instead of being in the corners with the two wingers digging the puck out. I always kind of thought this was an attempt by Trotz's to keep the center in a position to backcheck quickly while still be in place for a shot from the slot. And a reason that you almost never saw Legwand carrying the puck out of the corner or from behind the net to get a close range shot.

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10-29-2004, 12:42 PM
  #77
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lol fangs..you're exactly right,many times idiots(both at the game and on the board)would scream for all 3 forwards to be down in the corner digging the puck out at the same time.....would drive me crazy,thinking dig it out for who if they're all three down low??...you have to have someone in the middle to pass the frigging puck to if you're going to create a scoring chance..and also to be defensively responsible...

great point :lol

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10-29-2004, 08:54 PM
  #78
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Thats some great thread pred303. I started following the Preds a bit last year, especially that great regular season series you had with Detoit. I've been rooting for you guys.

The overload situation you were mentioning, I have noticed our Sens do that really well. It has really been remarkable watching our team from day 1, when gaining control in the offensive zone and actually be able to get a 2nd shot on net was an accomplishment. We've come a long way baby. I get really impressed by how Jacques Martin could execute what I tongue in cheek called the invisible 6th man in the offensive zone, where no matter which corner of the zone the puck went, we outnumered the other team.

Our players really cycle around now. Positions are really just for face offs. Numerous times I can count where Redden would lead the rush, carry the puck into the offensive zone behind the net, and then pass in the slot to the other rushing defensman. One of the things I have really noticed as our team got more offensive was the active defensmen.

Zidlicky has been pretty impressive. I dont get to see him too much but I was thinking of him as similar to Rafalski. Would that seem a reasonable comparison?

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10-29-2004, 09:04 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
Thats some great thread pred303. I started following the Preds a bit last year, especially that great regular season series you had with Detoit. I've been rooting for you guys.

The overload situation you were mentioning, I have noticed our Sens do that really well. It has really been remarkable watching our team from day 1, when gaining control in the offensive zone and actually be able to get a 2nd shot on net was an accomplishment. We've come a long way baby. I get really impressed by how Jacques Martin could execute what I tongue in cheek called the invisible 6th man in the offensive zone, where no matter which corner of the zone the puck went, we outnumered the other team.

Our players really cycle around now. Positions are really just for face offs. Numerous times I can count where Redden would lead the rush, carry the puck into the offensive zone behind the net, and then pass in the slot to the other rushing defensman. One of the things I have really noticed as our team got more offensive was the active defensmen.

Zidlicky has been pretty impressive. I dont get to see him too much but I was thinking of him as similar to Rafalski. Would that seem a reasonable comparison?
Rafalski is a very good comparison, but I think Zidlicky is a bit more skilled with the puck and Rafalski is better defensively.

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Old
10-29-2004, 09:28 PM
  #80
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thinkwild..i think rafalski is an excellent comparison...from the size,quickness point of view especially...you don't get to see zidlicky much i know,but offensively he's a step above rafalski(the 14 goals last to rafalskis normal 7-8 show some of that)...but zids is a much better stickhandler,and has a much more accurate shot....rafalski is head and shoulders above zids in the defensive end now(zids won't ever come close to the +36 rafalski had year before last lol)...zids is like 4 years younger too,and with an entire year of nhl behind him might just get better....but it's still a good comparison talent wise

yeah your team ran that diamond overload against us last year on the pp....a strong talented team you have there,one we're trying to pattern ourselves after in development

welcome as a secondary predfan

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10-29-2004, 09:49 PM
  #81
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You know, I dont think i've ever heard the term diamond overload discussed before. And we are in hockey country, we talk hockey all year. When we disect our football team, it is pretty technical, but I never really seem to think that way in terms of hockey. Maybe we should.

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10-30-2004, 07:37 AM
  #82
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to p303

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Old
10-30-2004, 09:46 AM
  #83
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thought maybe this morning i'd throw out breakout schemes as food for thought...it's tough to say there are breakout "formations"..since how a team tries to break out of their own zone is reactionary to the forechecking scheme the opponent uses and as such it tends to be very freeflowing...but there are basic things and concepts that apply from p-wee hockey to the nhl concerning breakouts to watch for...

it's already been mentioned the unique little center wrap around move we like to do once the puck is on the stick of one of our dmen waiting to start the breakout...again...the real reason we do this is it's our method of trying to read whether a team is trapping or not...and therefore whether you run a "run and gun" breakout or instead approach a potential trap more cautiously....once the wings are set up near the blueline and the dman takes the puck back behind our net the centersweeps thru(in our little scheme)...he is making the trap read then...if the lead forechecker starts to follow the centerman thru(remember in the trap the lead forechecker is not playing a man and instead is just going to glide backwards and force the puckcarrier to the sideboards where he can then cut off the center pass and take the center of the ice away as a breakout option),then the dman curls the puck letting the center know to leave the puck and just continue to skate thru...when the forechecker follows the sweeper(and they read it's a man to man forechecking scheme)then the dmen steps out the opposite side of the net with the puck...after he reads man-to man forechecking he(the puckcarrier) then tries to curl back into the center to open lanes for passes to the wings at the blueline(this is known as the 'center breakout')once he gets in the center of the ice with the puck the defensive team reads that(getting to the center is important in this man to man,because once he does it forces the defense to start retreating to avoid the wings picking up a head of steam and blowing by them)...the dman is taught to skate straight forward until pressure is brought to bear on him...ideally he skates forward all the way to the blueline,which frees the wingers to break beyond the redline and really opens up the forecheking defense....good forechecking teams try to not allow this though by sending someone at the dman early making him pass prior to reaching the top of the faceoff circles

meanwhile the wingers are taught to break away from the dmen guarding them toward the puckcarrier(to create space for them to receive the puck)...good breakout teams hit the wing with a breakout pass while he's moving,because he's so much easier to check and cause a turnover if he catches a pass while stationary...watch for this...if the first breakout pass is to a forward who is not moving,well someone isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing..the dman is taught that for it to be a good breakout pass it must hit the guy on the move,and it should always be to his forehand side(for ease of handling)...this is the reason that years ago teams figured that a left winger ideally would be righthanded,and a leftwinger would be righthanded....so that a breakout pass could be more easily received on his forehand side(teams also used to want that right handed LW and the left handed RW because of the angle of the shot in the offensive zone and the fact that you could more easily take the onetimer if your stick was primarily to the center of the ice,but i see it rarely discussed now)...

anyway once the initial pass is made to the winger his first option is always to carry the puck thru the redline with speed and break to the center of the offensive zone if possible(which of course the defense is conversely trying to prevent)...if he can carry the puck into the center with speed it opens up so many options,such as the center twist or stunt behind him(where the trailing centerman crisscrosses behind the puck carrier,thereby giving him space, and being in position to recieve the drop pass from the winger)...of course this is all just the ideal result(that or a defensive mistake allowing a wing to break behind a dman)....good forechecking teams defend their offensive zone first,then they defend the offensive neutral zone,then the defensive neutral zone,then the defensive zone and make teams fight thru all four

the breakout scheme changes of course if you're facing the trap....when the centerman reads he's not being chased by the lead forechecker and drags the puck form the guy behind the net in our scheme...well it also means he's reading trap...our twist scheme behind the net not only serves to read trap and warn..but by dragging the puck thru our center is now on one of the boards with the puck against the wing who is standing up at the blueline to be the anvil in the trap..if our center can react quickly enough,before the opposing lead forechecker can close the trap,well it puts us in a position to have two guys on that one side(the center with the puck and the winger at the blueline) and possibly break into the zone before the trap is sprung...(possible,just not often)....if the centerman takes the puck,and sees that the lead forechecker is going to be able to close the trap then he is supposed to avoid skating all the way into the trap,stopping near the top of the faceoff circle and reversing the puck to the opposite winger,maybe before the lead forechecker can reverse and close the trap on the opposite side..

just lots of little games going on even in the basic breakout schemes


Last edited by Pred303: 10-30-2004 at 10:07 AM.
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Old
10-30-2004, 12:30 PM
  #84
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once again excellent post p303 ....helps to organize the seeming chaos some.

a chalkboard would be very helpful for this :attn:

-one thing you left out is what the centerman is doing after he sweeps through....i can follow what the dmen and the wingers are trying to accomplish, but I lose the centerman until he is receiving a drop pass just over the red line or just over the blue line in the offensive zone.

-also is the other dman [that hasn't broke to the opposite side of the net as the sweeper with the puck] just hanging back as an escape valve for a pass or ready to jump on anyone who has intercepted a pass and trying to create an odd man rush?

-when i see a forward behind the net with the puck, does everybody change roles or does a new breakout scheme ensue?

-I never thought about the role of the handedness of the wingers in their play on the breakout....interesting [I really mainly had thought about it for the PP schemes]. Do you think that makes a big difference as a kid is going through peewees and bantams as he gets slotted on the left or right wing? What other factors are involved? How does a centerman's handedness matter besides the faceoff [which is very interesting in itself]?

sorry got a little off topic there.....but hey, I was on a role.....

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10-30-2004, 01:32 PM
  #85
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Enjoying this thread....thanks everyone!

Quote:
but hey, I was on a role
Hey Handtrick....what kind of "role" are you on??

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10-30-2004, 01:35 PM
  #86
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well let me think about these one at a time...

1)..first notice the centerman sweeps in from the side that the off defensiveman(the one without the puck behind the net) is standing out in the corner of...this gives the dman behind the net with a quick option either way

...the centerman when he doesn't take the puck in our scheme normally continues up the boards and either curls around the top of the faceoff circle(when he does this the winger whose spot he takes cuts straight toward the faceoff circle at center ice,giving the puckcarrier the option to try to hit him at full speed at the center ice redline for a breakin)...or the center cuts around the winger there and makes the break himself to the centerice faceoff circle for the potential 'homerun' breakout pass

2)..the off dman normally assumes a position (in our concept)out in the corner as a potential quick outlet or safety value ,then he moves toward the front of our net as a safety....one thing you will see sometimes is that if pressure catches up to the man behind the net is atteptimg to throw the puck around the boards to the weakside forward.....this can really catch the defense napping if they are overplaying the wing back to the inside,but...it's high risk to do-because the wing might be breaking himself (as he's taught to do when the puckcarrier is under pressure)and if so he won't be able to get back to the baords and you run the risk of a godawful turnover in your zone

3) when a forward carries the puck back normally people just have to jump in others spots in the concept,notice how many times he will then 'handoff' the puck to a dman to reset when that happens...again it's all just a concept,players generally just have the feel of where the open ice is and that's where they head..you're playing for defensive mistakes and skating with your head up and improvising most of the time

...one other thing,there's a basic thing you're taught from the time you're 5 in peewee hockey about how best generally to handle defensive forechecking pressure..and that's pass if two men come after you,skate if one comes after you

...on right vs lefthanded right or left wingers,it used to be stressed much more for some reason...so i imagine in todays youth leagues it isn't stressed as much as it was...it is a large advantage in being positioned for onetimers in the offensive zone no doubt....but again,it doesn't seem to be ever talked about anymore

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10-31-2004, 12:33 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang
This is going back to yesterday. What was the coaching staff calling the offence that the Preds would set up in last year? Was it third man high? Seems like they would have the two wings in deep then the center would roam the low/mid slot.
This is Trotz's offensive system, which is why we say no center on this team will ever put up great numbers, with the exception of Ronning (when Ronning was out Yachmenev stayed high), our centers are never in tight, unless we're behind in the third. It slows down other teams transition game, but also hampers our scoring, always will.

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10-31-2004, 07:41 AM
  #88
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this "third man high" concept is preaching defensive responsibility to the weakside winger(or centerman) as i understand it....in our offensive scheme(admittedly a conservative one) you have two guys on the points at all times in your offensive zone,when the strongside pointman jumps into the play or pinches down say to the faceoff circle,the weakside point is supposed to rotate over to fill the strongside point back behind him,while whoever the weakside winger is is supposed to then get back and cover the weakside point,oftentimes as trig mentions that weakside player will in effect be our centerman beacuse he a lot of the time is over at the weakside high slot and the wingers are caught in low.....no argument at all that this scheme and defensive accountability by trotz takes numbers away from our centermen,something many teams don't do(the more offensive minded ones let one dman jump in the play and simply rotate their weakside dman to center ice area and play one back for a minute)...again this failing to rotate back to cover the weakside point immediately is what got shishkanov benched and critisized in his call-up last year,missed no doubt because Milwaukee doesn't stress this as trotz does..

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10-31-2004, 09:39 AM
  #89
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one more area of strategy i think we all like to get into...line composition...the different ways of theoretically putting together good lines follow three seperate schools of thought...

1)speed
2)power
3)combination(of the previous two)

generally the ideal line consists of a balance in most coaches minds:

A) a good playmaker that is a good puckhandler and passer and can stickhandle the puck into the offensive zone,a guy who can put the puck on the other two guys stick in the right place and at the right time,but also can help out the one tougher forward in the corners digging out the puck and cyclying

B)a power type forward,one who's not afraid to give up his body,and mentally is able to takes the punishment needed to camp in front of the net...a guy who is strong on his skates,because he's the one that's going to get banged by the biggest dman trying to get him out of the crease

C)a speedy breakaway type forward who can lead or join in with the playmaker guy to create 2 on 1 breakins....a guy who can be a sniper in the offensive zone once the play settles in...

this three way balanced line is again i think everyone's ideal all purpose line....however,other options include the power line with three grind type of strongmen,and the speed line where all three forwards can take off and leave the average speed defender...

some coaches go the balanced route as much as possible,but others like to have each of the three a different type(one speed,one ower,one balanced)to present the toughest opponent matchup problems...no doubt having three totally different look scoring lines present the most difficult choices for the opposing coach

today in the nhl,you see every team routinely roll four lines(at least for the first two periods)and we generally call the 4th line the "checking line",but it wasn't always so..the third line used to be used exclusively as the checking line..and teams loaded it with their best defensive players,and used it to check the other team's top scoring line....they would try to wear that line down,and the coach would try to get in a situation where the opposing 1st line was blown,get in a position where he could change and catch the opposition not able to get them off the ice,and change to his top line to take advantage of this....this was time and again what edmonton would do with the gretzky-kurri line...today you seem to see less line "specialization" for some reason,most all teams seem to treat lines interchangeably...with the notable exception of detroit and their 4th grind line(which is more a function of detroit's depth than anything else)...it's a real art form putting the right lines and combination out there on the fly,or watching the home team watch the oncoming enemy line during stoppages and then sending out a line to counter....we also see shifts much shorter today than they used to be in the nhl,a function of coaches being more and more scientific and specialized

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Old
11-01-2004, 02:19 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
in the old days you used to see guys get pitched more from the faceoff circle intentionally than you do now,because they never called the delay of game penalty when the second guy stepped in that they do now

speaking of faceoffs,whatever happened to the delay of game drop the puck that they were gonna call?...kind of went the way of neutral zone interference calls as the season went on
They still have the delay of game penalty on faceoffs. If one team gets thrown out of the circle twice on the same draw, it's an automatic 2 min delay of game.





p.s. Ben Roethlisberger is my new hero.

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11-01-2004, 06:07 AM
  #91
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spank,i was referring to the 10 second drop the puck-even if you haven't gotten a line out here thing

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11-01-2004, 07:59 AM
  #92
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well those are pretty much the areas i tend to watch from a strategy/scheme point of view watching a game;

1)even strength offenses-overload(diamond),behind the net,crash the net
2)even strength defenses-tight point high(tight point),collapsing,staggered(combination)
3)pp offensive sets-overload,spread(shooting),umbrella
4)pk defensive formations-aggresive box(large box),passive(tight box),diamond
5)man to man forechecking- 1-2-2,2-2-1,2-1-2,3-1-1
6)trap forechecking- neutral zone trap,low trap,high trap,left wing lock
7)faceoff methods- step in,power pull,quick,stick lift
8)faceoff formations-aggressive,normal,safe(conservative)
9)breakout schemes- 3 on 3(man to man),reading and breaking the trap,crisscross
10)line composition and line changes

any other areas anyone wants to talk about in the grand scheme of hockey things?

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11-01-2004, 08:08 PM
  #93
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I'm going to need seats next to p303 to keep up with all of this stuff.

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11-02-2004, 02:48 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
spank,i was referring to the 10 second drop the puck-even if you haven't gotten a line out here thing
ahh. I don't think I knew that was supposed to be a penalty, I've never seen it called. But I have seen them just drop it, even if one guy isn't in there yet. I wish they would do it more, because some teams seem to use every trick in the book to get a few extra seconds (messing with tape, a new stick, etc. etc.).

I have a question. How exactly is a scoring chance determined? Is a penalty shot or PP considered a scoring chance?


Last edited by sparkle twin: 11-02-2004 at 03:04 AM.
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11-02-2004, 06:02 AM
  #95
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scoring chances are of course subjective,according to the official scorer and as such always open to debate...but really what constitutes a 'scoring chance' is when a)the goalie makes has to make an 'above average' save b)when a player gets a shot from the low slot c)any wraparound c)any odd man rush d)any deflection e)any breakaway f)any penalty shot g)any close in rebound shot attempt h)a screened shot from the point I)any shot that hits the crossbar or post...

so bottom line is it came down to any time that the official scorer thought...wow,they could/should have scored on that...it became an official scoring chance

what confuses many fans about determining if it was a scoring chance is that it doesn't have to be an official shot on net in most official scorers minds...take for example a guy deflects a puck just over the crossbar....was that a scoring chance?well to most official scrorers it was if it almost went in the net....or take a two on one breakin,where the pass is made back to a guy who fires a shot off the crossbar,no official shot,but still a scoring chance

many hated this stat when it used to be kept as an official stat(where for about a 10 year period it was an official stat)...i didn't..i thought it gave a much better picture of a teams chances than just purely the number of official shots did...some would go crazy because you might have more scoring chances using this criteria than even number of shots(for a short term part of the game this could happen,rarely would it happen over an entire game,because the unscreened shot from the point wasn't really counted as a scoring chance)typically in the 25 shot game a team would average about 5-10 true scoring chances...which was probably much more realistic....i thought the stat told you more about the defense's and the goalie's true performance...

and you misunderstood me about the faceoff drop...you're right there are no penalties called there...just was talking about the nhl's statement of speeding up games and line changes by dropping the puck within tens seconds of a stoppage that they did for about 20 games after the olympics...just was musing about how that went the way of calling more interference penalties in the neutral zone


Last edited by Pred303: 11-02-2004 at 06:06 AM.
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11-02-2004, 11:04 AM
  #96
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just was talking about the nhl's statement of speeding up games and line changes by dropping the puck within tens seconds of a stoppage that they did for about 20 games after the olympics...just was musing about how that went the way of calling more interference penalties in the neutral zone.

Yes, like most things introduced at the start of a season,it went the way of the toe-in-the-crease rule, which BTW was particularly frustrating due to the way the S/C final ended that year.

So I haven't had a chance to see the new bluelines in the AHL is there any chance that it is/will/has affected gameplay. I.E. less neutral zone room? Or is this a doomed idea.

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11-02-2004, 11:09 AM
  #97
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looking back on this thread a couple of questions have been asked or things said about when a team is ahead or behind and needs to catch up or protect the lead

one thing we haven't really talked about is how teams change strategy depending on the score/game situation....it's not really nessesarily that teams change their offensive/defensive formations or strategies if they fall behind a couple/three of goals early or are trailing by a goal late,or ahead two goals or ahead late in the game...although these are often changed too as the score indicates a need to do so

now of course a team adjusts in the offensive/defensive risks they take as the game unwinds...so the team might shift from running a passive box on the penalty kill if they're a couple of goals behind,to a more aggressive box to try to keep the other team from slowing the game down as much....or conversely maybe given that situation a team that is 2 or more goals ahead might back into a passive pk box to make the opposing side maybe take more time...and maybe the team playing a collapsing defnse until they fall behind late decides they need a more aggressive defense to speed the game up and therefore goes to say a tight point high type of defensive scheme..

the most readily visible change you see on the ice when a team is ahead or behind is of course in the forechecking schemes....teams like MINN,NJ always go to the zone trap to slow down the game once they get ahead...get behind and teams often change to a more aggresive type of man to man,maybe even going to the 2-2-1 type of aggressive forechecking...(even though most coaches wait until they're either down 2 with 10 minutes in the 3rd or 1 with less than 5 to do this usually,because they are so much riskier)

other than forechecking scheme changes,the real way teams adjust to the score is not really through formation/scheme/concept changes in the game plan...but rather it's thru a subtle(or not so subtle)change in pressure in the offensive and defensive zone....teams basically each have 4 or 5 levels of pressure for both defense or offense...on some teams this is actually planned and in the playbook and given codenames and called for in specific situations,others do it much more informally,and allow their players to read the situation themselves and just know when to do which....

take offensively for example..a team has the following basic choices of how much pressure to apply inside the scheme of their offensive set depending on the score;

1)risk everything-here the dmen both pinch deep into the offensive zone trying to create chaos and generate scoring chances...all or nothing type of plan with no real defensive get back responsibilites...no restrictions placed on the frontliners as to whether all three get in deep
2)aggressive-here one dman is given free rein to roam and pinch in to provide 4 offensive zone atackers,while the weakside dman has the responsibility of staying back to try to prevent the breakaway
3)normal-two dmen back at the blueline,both ready to pinch if they read the play,but they must be sure....our "third man high forward concept"where one winger is normally near the high slot area
4)passive-trying to protect the lead,the strongside dman is at the point,while the weakside dman gets depth,making sure noone can break behind him at the redline...generally in this pressure situation dmen are taught your first move or stride should probably be back
5)prevent-here both dmen are deep,rarely coming forward as far as the blueline,both dmen's first move should always be backward-getting beat deep is a cardinal sin..furthermore in this type of situation one of the forwards is ALWAYS as deep as the faceoff circle/high slot

...then on defense,defensive pressure in the defensive zone undergoes lots of changes;
1)all out-puckcarrier is double teamed everywhere,every guy is gambling trying to jump into passing lanes
2)aggressive(also called puck side pressure)-here teams try to force the puckcarrier to the outside and the winger and dman nearest the puck try to doubleteam him and trap him against the boards...teams try to take "educated" risks on reading passing lanes
3)standard-here teams play within their normal scheme
4)conservative(also called 'soft man')-where trying to avoid getting beat man to man teams back off their man a halfstep and foce shots to come from the outside,players are taught in this situation you always stay between your man and the net-always,very little gambling on the passing lanes or doubleteaming
5)protect(also know as prevent)-extra careful,puckcarriers are given a full stride normally(to avoid taking penalties as well as to avoid being beaten man on man),defenders always stay between their man and the net,virtually no risk taking in the passing lanes or doubleteaming

just some more rambling thoughts

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11-02-2004, 11:15 AM
  #98
Pred303
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bloodsport...i feel for you...i absolutely hated that in the crease no goal thing...funny how they propose these changes and then they just go away

i've been to one ahl game this year and really liked the wider bluelines(where i saw maybe 3 plays that remained onsides because of them)now it was hard to tell about the idea of more room in the neutral zone being created from watching just this one game....personally i liked the tag up offsides and goalie box too(even though if i were a betting man,which i am come to think of it,the goalie thing is the one that won't be adapted)

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11-03-2004, 08:26 AM
  #99
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wanted to thank everyone for this thread and it's evident success,was fun to talk through all the different considerations,helps me as a hockey fan to have to stop and actually put down in writing all the little details you rarely verbalize that you look for on the ice....lots of smart hockey people around these boards,wish i'd signed up over here long ago

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11-03-2004, 10:22 AM
  #100
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No.. thank you for putting it up here, pred303. And I have a request... when the season starts up again in December (why, yes, I am an optimist, deal with it!) will you (try to) find examples in games and relate them to us here? I know that I will be reveiwing this thread from time to time so when I can see another game I will know what to look for and it would be nice to have that sorta spelled out in a visible sense. Just asking... and it doesn't have to be you that does it... I am not adverse to making those notes either.

--qm29

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