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Old
11-03-2004, 01:09 PM
  #101
nine_inch_fang
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This thread isn't dead yet. I still want to go back and review all of the topics/questions and see if there is more that could be added to this. I would have to say that p303 did an excellent job of explaining all of the topics but there is too much to be learned to let this thread die.

I know I didn't absorb all of this the first time.

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11-03-2004, 01:37 PM
  #102
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I know I asked this before, but was either overlooked or promptly ignored by our beloved moderators.....Can we make this a sticky thread?

If the answer is "no", I can live with that....just thought I would ask politely at first .....

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11-03-2004, 01:49 PM
  #103
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for those of you not fortunate enough to have seen gretzky play in his prime,you should have seen this guy run the "behind the net" offensive set...talk about a thing of beauty,it's why it's still called "gretzky's office" back there..i have to admit,it's the offensive set i like to see the most,but you do have to have that one guy who is is quick and a great passer to make it happen best...

the right guy with the puck has so many options here if he can just get one on one with his dman....using the net as a pick he can force his dman to back off of him into the crease and create room for himself so easily(the dman is forced to back off to play a wraparound to either side of the net)...watch someone that knows what he is trying to do when they get in this position...he can wrap around either side,he can walk off the backline out in front and turn for a quick wrister...he can make the quick strongside pass right in front to the forward in the low crease...he can make a quick move to start to head around the net,and when he does the guy covering the other forward,positioned in the mid slot,usually makes a move to help cover the guy breaking from behind the net,freeing up the puckhandler to make a quick pass to the mid slot forward for a quick,short onetimer from an now open forward...he can make the long pass out to the strongside dman at the point for a onetimer and have all three forwards screening the goalie.....or my absolute favorite play option from this set is where he quickly breaks back toward the weakside side of the net,and immediately all defenders move toward him to cut him off and then he make the long pass back to the dman at the weakside point for a onetimer...this works so often,because you first catch the defender moving off the point to give help back inside,....and then all defenders automatically react back out toward the point,usually taking a quick stride in that direction....and it leaves the man who has been running the play behind the net wide open for either a rebound or to deflect the shot coming back from the point...or even more pretty is when the dman shoots a onetimer right back at the guy coming from behind the net,who tries to deflect it right in behind the goalie who is trying to get out to the front of his crease to stop the onetimer from the point...bet gretzky scored a hundred goals just like this....was something to behold


Last edited by Pred303: 11-03-2004 at 02:21 PM.
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11-03-2004, 02:11 PM
  #104
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Hipcheck and I was talking the other day about systems in youth hockey, neither of us teach systems, unless you consider fundemental positioning systems.

What I'd like to know is nomore and smokey did you guys play systems in G.N.A.S.H? I know when I played the then NYHL we didn't. In fact the first time I heard the word systems was as an adult on a travel team with hipcheck.

I personally think that until skating stick handling, shooting, checking and other physical aspects of the game are refined that systems should not be tought. I was at a rink the other day and a coach of kids no more than 8 years old was working on systems, half the kids were ankle benders.

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11-03-2004, 02:58 PM
  #105
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i know nothing about coaching youth hockey trig,but would bet you're exactly right...all youth sports should focus primarily on individual skills first,then only as kids become more advanced should limited 'collective skills' start to be introduced...to try to run a complex 'system' would be ludicrous when all you really need to teach is exactly what you're saying you do-individual skills and basic positions and spacing...

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11-03-2004, 04:15 PM
  #106
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I've coached in the NYHL House and the GNASH leagues. I agree with you Trig, that skills need to be developed first, then systems can be installed. You don't see much success with systems in the NYHL house league, whereas, a NYHL travel team will need at least one in order to compete against other travel teams from hockey areas like Michigan and Chicago, etc. GNASH has some simple systems being used, or parts thereof, but that comes from being able to keep the same kids for about 4 years to be able to teach them the systems.

I don't get too much into systems in the NYHL House league for many reasons. First of all, the disparity of player skill sets each of these teams have is so vast, that it would take an incredible amount of time to install a system that works for the team. Secondly, there is a serious lack of ice time and space for practice. There is about a "2 practices to 1 game" ratio in the NYHL House league. Hardly enough time to bring the skill sets of the players on the teams close enough to begin installing systems. Thirdly, House teams only get 1/2 sheet practices. This is not good for teaching systems. Not only is it hard to explain the neutral zone trap to a 12 year old, you can't practice it properly when you only have 1/2 of a neutral zone.

I have introduced simple sections of a system to players as a "do this, when this" type of situation occurs. Example, if when rushing the net, you can't get into the slot for a shot, curl to the outside board and look to pass to a team-mate who is getting into the slot, or go behind the net and look to pass to a team-mate into the slot. This is simple enough for them to understand and it is the beginning of setting up an Overload, or behind the net offensive scheme. The house kids are really only taught one simple breakout scheme, and use it only about 1/2 of the time.


In GNASH, we use simple systems with the units where the players have comparable skill sets. GNASH teams get 2-1 practice/game ratio also, but have full ice practices. Systems can be taught to several units in one area of the rink while the skill sets of new players can be developed elsewhere on the rink. Full ice scrimmages can be used to teach the systems. However, you won't see any trapping type of systems in GNASH, but the 1-2-2 or the 2-1-2 forcheck may be used. I've seen teams use a simplified version of the overload on offense as well as the behind the net tactics...but the majority offense used is uncontrolled crash the net, where chaos is king and the best skating/puckhandler usually hogs his way onto the scoresheet.

This lack of ice time is what seriously hampers hockey development of kids in the south. We are pretty much stuck with teaching individual skills and tactics to the kids during our ice times because they cannot get ice time outside of the scheduled practices. The kids also cannot simply grab skates and a stick and go play shinny in the parks like they do in the North. Backyard, or neighborhood shinny, has shown to be the best way to develop skills and creativity. Here, the kids grab a basketball, soccer ball, football, baseball bat and gloves, etc when they go outside to play.


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11-04-2004, 08:05 AM
  #107
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hyper or trig...what age groups are the two youth leagues,NYHL House and GNASH legues you guys are talking about and have coached in?...interesting to see what you teach,makes perfect sense to me thinking thru how you say you teach the basics,and i think you're dead on in that that 'system' you teach hyper is the basis for later true offensive sets...

to all you other guys don't mean to imply that teams go into a game with a hard and fast offensive set in mind to always run...it's not like that at all...

teams simply often use the offensive set they are given by the defense during a game...i.e. if a guy can get to behind the net with the puck,the other four players know by experience exactly the four general spots they should be on the ice(and therefore they run the behind the net scheme)....or if a guy can skate the puck to the corner they know to go to the strongside low slot and the strongside halfboard (and therefore set up the diamond overload scheme)...or if they see a winger driving to the net,the forwards drive the net in their zone(crash the net)...it's simply all about what the defense gves you,and how much pressure the defense is applying to the puckcarrier...everyone just needs to understand what the base offensive sets are and where all 5 people should generally be when each of those is used...and maybe to understand the base options each present

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11-04-2004, 08:34 AM
  #108
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I would be willing to bet that when 99 was on the ice the defense did everything it could to prevent him from getting behind the net.

This basic information will make watching the games very different from the stand point of what is the defense trying to take away? what is the offense doing to counter the defense?

A much different mindset to watching hockey than, Gee-whiz that guys just standing there, we need to trade him, or SHOOT, that we hear and see so much of at the GEC.

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11-04-2004, 09:03 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
hyper or trig...what age groups are the two youth leagues,NYHL House and GNASH legues you guys are talking about and have coached in?...interesting to see what you teach,makes perfect sense to me thinking thru how you say you teach the basics,and i think you're dead on in that that 'system' you teach hyper is the basis for later true offensive sets...

to all you other guys don't mean to imply that teams go into a game with a hard and fast offensive set in mind to always run...it's not like that at all...

teams simply often use the offensive set they are given by the defense during a game...i.e. if a guy can get to behind the net with the puck,the other four players know by experience exactly the four general spots they should be on the ice(and therefore they run the behind the net scheme)....or if a guy can skate the puck to the corner they know to go to the strongside low slot and the strongside halfboard (and therefore set up the diamond overload scheme)...or if they see a winger driving to the net,the forwards drive the net in their zone(crash the net)...it's simply all about what the defense gves you,and how much pressure the defense is applying to the puckcarrier...everyone just needs to understand what the base offensive sets are and where all 5 people should generally be when each of those is used...and maybe to understand the base options each present
I haven't coached since the mid 90's. There was no GNASH back then but GNASH is the greater Nashville area scholastic hockey. It's high school hockey. NYHL is now just the house league all ages, I believe.

I don't consider basic fundemental positioning as a system. Trying to keep players from chasing the puck or knowing where to be in the offensive zone is all basic but difficult for even the high school kids to master but coaches now are trying to get kids to play more complex systems before the kids even master basic positioning.

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11-04-2004, 09:17 AM
  #110
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yeah fangs they did try...course that was a lot easier said than done....one of the problems you have,of course,is when the guy you're covering is fast AND a great stickhandler....just like trying to cover that super quick guard in basketball,to avoid him just stickhandling right around you in open ice you have to back off him a step when he has the puck....and this allowed gretzky to pretty much go where he wanted to go against the straight up man to man....so teams tried to do two things when he was on the ice.....1)they would play him tight whenever he didn't have the puck all over the ice,trying to deny him the puck...this of course wasn't easy either,as this overplay and super tight coverage would allow him to break backdoor in the offensive zone many times...and since he led the breakout most of the time he already would have the puck on his stick whenever he broke into the offensive zone most of the time...2)the other way they would try to defense him and get him out of his "office" behind the net is they would send two guys to double team him down low as soon as he got there....this was a pick your poison type of scheme,because doubleteaming the guy who was probably the best passer that ever lived meant he would find the open guy...this method of stopping him from scoring goals is why he had more ASSISTS than anyone else has ever had total points...

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11-04-2004, 10:43 AM
  #111
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p303:
GNASH (Greater Nashville Scholastic Hockey) is the High School Hockey league like Trig posted. Look into it at www.gnashockey.com

The NYHL (Nashville Youth Hockey Leauge) has a House division and also has several teams entered into the travel league known as the SYHL (Southern Youth Hockey League) and one or two that play a higher level than that. NYHL's website is www.nyhl.info

NYHL age ranges are this:
Termite = Under 7
Mite = 8 and under
Squirt = 10 and under
Pee Wee = 12 and under
Bantam = 14 and under

Trig is absolutely correct ...there is no sense in teaching systems if the kids don't even know basic positioning. Skating, Puckhandling, and Positioning are the 3 most important building blocks to developing youth hockey. Passing and Shooting come in closely behind them. Concepts of zone awareness, angling, gap control and checking come in behind those, etc. These things are what I teach and practice to the youth kids.

The High School kids, for the most part, have most of these basics down to an acceptable level. By that, I am not implying that they don't need to practice them for improvement. But kids that can skate, puckhandle, position, angle and check already, can be taught basic systems that help them create and maintain a flow to the game. Again though, that all depends on the kids on your team, and what units you have created as a coach. An "A" line and to most degree, a "B" line can execute simple systems most of the time. But your "C" and "D" lines, usually aren't up to par enough execute a system. If the "A" & "B" lines are diluted with "C" and "D" players, there is a definite weak link in the chain as far as your system goes and usually will not work as well as you hope.

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11-04-2004, 10:59 AM
  #112
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back on faceoffs....

let's talk about the guys we have...

if i had to rank the pure faceoff winning ability of the guys in our organization from best to worst the list would probably look something like this(based on reputation,prior years faceoff winning percentage,personal observation,and some wildass guessing);

1)greg johnson
2)tony hrkac
3)jerred smithson
4)wyatt smith
5)adam hall
6)vernon fiddler
7)david legwand
8)scott walker
9)steve sullivan
10)denis arkhipov

our poor faceoff performance(we won 48.8% last year,23rd best in the league and amongst all playoff teams only OTT and SJ finished lower) tends to show the most on the pk and the pp...(why?...think about it...in time sensitive situations,like on special teams,every faceoff lost costs an average of 15-25 seconds,either added to the amount of time a team has to attack our pk or the amount of time we have to truely attack on the pp)...an improvement of just two faceoff wins per game(say 1/2 of a percent)on special teams might well equal a swing of 5+ goals per season over the course of 82 games...figure that would translate into 3-4 points alone

kinda off the subject,but jerred smithson is interesting here...note how kyle has been bragging on him in the admiral broadcasts and saying that if we were playing the coaches think he would be up on the preds....it is possible he could be our 4th line center if this thing ever gets started back...a quick scouting report is that he is 25,big,strong(6-2,200)who is very physical,a good checker,not much speed,righthanded,really good faceoff guy.....wouldn't expect much offense(never has scored double digit goals above the whl level),but he's probably more the prototypical checking line center than wyatt smith...now personally i like the possible offense wyatt smith(or vernon fiddler)might bring to the 4th line...but this is a guy we might well hear more of

but anyway,we need to improve in the faceoff circle overall...leggy has real possibilities here(to dramatically improve)....leggy is strange in the faceoff circle...he usually wins a large percentage in the games where he takes draws primarily agianst other teams 3rd and 4th best faceoff guy,not unusual to see him go 10 and 5 in this type of situations...but facing the best faceoff guy from other teams you'll see leggy often go something like 5 and 10 or worse...wish we would focus on this in the offseason somehow(like maybe bring in a guy to just work with our centermen)

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11-04-2004, 11:35 AM
  #113
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I know earlier someone said it is hard to teach faceoffs. Would a summer worth of 200 faceoffs a day work? Just go to the rink with two other guys (hopefully one that is good with faceoffs) and drop the puck for a couple of hours. I would think like anything the more you practice the better your reaction time would be and everything would seem to be in more of a "slow motion" rather than "fast forward".

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11-04-2004, 11:54 AM
  #114
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probably fangs...but only to a limited degree you would think...someone that is 24-25 and has played center all their lives has probably taken tens of thousands of faceoffs in their career already...you would think the only real way to improve would be thru someone who is an expert on techniques to show or change the way they might be doing things already....and you would also assume most any improvements would only be in subtle,small increases in winning % too..of course the difference between winning 54% makes you a great faceoff guy,and winning 46% makes you a poor one,a slight change could make tons of difference...one thing to note is that legwand for example has increased his winning percentage in the faceoff circle each year in the league(he only won something like 40% in his rookie year,now he's up to the 46% range)...

johnson went from a 50% type winner 5 years ago to winning near 55-56% now,his improvement seems to have came through a change in technique(going to the lift the stick,step in and kick the puck back method he does now).....now johnson's winning % is misleading i think,because he certainly leads the team in the number of times he gets thrown out of the circle,possibly among the most times in the frigging league,(because like most people with a high percentage,he cheats)and when he gets thrown out it puts the guy who takes his place at a disadvantage

but to put things in perspective,we are better at faceoffs as a team than we were 3 or 4 years ago(one year our faceoff % was near 45)and have shown improvement every year as johnson and leggy's numbers have improved...it's just it would be nice to be at least an average faceoff team, a real advantage as we try to figure out subtle ways to get better as a team


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11-04-2004, 01:32 PM
  #115
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I would imagine that there are guys out there that could coach the finer points of the technique the same way a skating coach can improve speed simply through technique. Such as foot placement, were the hands are on the stick, center of gravity/balance.

I guess I just wonder what guys work on during the summer. We all know when a player puts on 15 pounds of muscle over the summer or takes off 15 pounds of fat. But do these guys use the time to work on those ever so slight details independently?

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11-04-2004, 01:41 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang
.

I guess I just wonder what guys work on during the summer.

I bet 12 ounce curls are a major part of their summer training regime

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11-04-2004, 01:46 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
I bet 12 ounce curls are a major part of their summer training regime
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I was just hoping for more.

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11-04-2004, 01:48 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
I bet 12 ounce curls are a major part of their summer training regime
cruelers or curls?

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11-04-2004, 01:51 PM
  #119
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12 ounce cruelers????

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11-04-2004, 01:53 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang
12 ounce cruelers????
*does his best homer interpretation*

uuuuuhhhhmmm donuts

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11-04-2004, 08:15 PM
  #121
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As usual I'm late to bring up a subject. Going back thru the posts Pred 303Guy mentioned the defenceman with the puck behind the net as the center or winger swoop around behind the net to see if he was going to be followed. Thus spotting the trap in action. I would like to add that I've also seen it used to draw in the opposing teams center.

You'll see the swoop take place with no one chasing your center, he gets out past the blueline and the defenseman is still standing there behind the net with the puck! The opposing center,or winger will go in to flush him out,followed by a another winger. Aha now you've changed their defence into an offence strategy,with the neutral zone emptying, your winger and a defeceman come back in the zone to pinch in while the defenceman behind the net has started scrambling out to the faceoff circle area. meanwhile your other winger is waiting for a breakout pass to red line,and the center is on the opposite side preparing to either get back into your zone to pinch in or run towards the breakout pass at the other blueline. A very dangerous "trasitional" play that can backfire and wind up in your own net, if the breakout pass doesn't work.

anyway if all goes to plan the initial breakout pass hits the defensman who just snuck back into your zone,he passes to your winger at the center line and he in turn cross ice passes to your center who is barreling through the oppositions blueline with the puck on his stick and the opposition 3 paces behind him. It's a rarity to be sure, but needed if you're a couple goals down with time ticking away.

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11-05-2004, 07:35 AM
  #122
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i know it's hard to follow breakout schemes without a chalkboard to diagram where everyone is and what they react to,but i think i follow you bloodsport and i believe you're right..

..normally it is the opposing centerman acting as the lead forechecker for the other team...and when our centerman 'swoops' thru behind the net and reads the opposing centerman is not playing him but instead playing an area(and therefore the other side is probably/possibly playing a trap)...well it can present a mismatch later for our centerman down ice(if we can break the trap cleanly),because the opposing centerman,the guy who normally plays him,is now way back down ice leading the trap....of course,that's saying you can break the trap cleanly and quickly,something not easy to do

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11-06-2004, 09:28 AM
  #123
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one thing you never see talked about is how a team mixes and matches forward lines and defense pairings when they're rolling 4 lines out there....can really change how a team does line changes and when a line might or might not be used,depending on what their philosophy is here...

what i'm talking about is the pairing of defensivemen with particular lines...some teams like the continuity of trying as best possible to keep the same pairing of defensemen with the same forward line as much as possible...and therefore each of the three defensive lines play fairly exclusively with the first forward three lines under normal circumstances....trying to use pretty much the same 5 men at a time on ice throughout a game..obviously you could see where this could build some teamwork...this is pretty much what most all teams did until the 1990's when virtually all teams rolled only three lines.....today with 4 lines from almost all teams presents a problem doing that of course...but several teams in the league still pretty much do that and then use their top two dmen pairing when their fourth line is on the ice(idea being here,that we better have our best two defenders out here with this group type thing)...when a team does this however,it affects ice time for the top line or at least when the top line is used....for example many teams pretty much go in this order when rolling 4 lines..1,2,3,4 then back to the top....but if you're double shifting your dmen,by trying to keep entire units together,you want to go 1,2,3,4,2,1 type of thing to give the top d pairing rest time,and by having to do this teams 1st lines generally get about 2-3 or so less shifts a game than they normally do...

many teams treat offense lines and defense lines pretty much totally seperate today it seems,changing each seperately with little regard to what offensive or defensive other group is on the ice....the thing this can do though...is for example if your top forward unit is pretty much your 1st pp unit,and your top two dmen just happen to be your 1st pp point men too,and they are not out their skating together even strength(top o line and top d line)..and you draw a penalty,well you run the risk of one of the 1st units(either offense or defense)being blown from just playing a shift..and therefore it messing up your normal special team allignment

think about what we do here..i've seen trotz do both at different times...i.e.match up a d unit with a forward unit for pretty much an entire game and also let them matchup fairly randomly

anybody else ever notice these things or is it just me?

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11-06-2004, 07:15 PM
  #124
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I think I remember this being a huge topic in Pittsburg during Jagr's last year. They brought in a Czech coach because his coaching style was to have 3 5-man units. This was done partly to pacify Jagr and make him feel at home in a Czech type system along with several other Czechs on the team.

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11-07-2004, 11:31 AM
  #125
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typical jagr...nothing's ever good enough...he must have been worried about his plus/minus...wait that never bothered him that i could tell,probably wanted the best offensive dmen so he could have more offensive numbers

but it is a dilemma for any coach how and what to do here with this situation,especially since 1/4 of a game is spent on either the pp or the pk(the league average)and you ideally want the best people on the ice in those situations,preferably both your best forwards and dman lines at the same time

line changes are interesting to watch,typically a team rolling four lines in even strength situations will get their first line about 16 shifts(14 minutes),their second 14 shifts(12 minutes),their third 12 shifts(10 minutes),and their fourth only 10 shifts or so(8 odd minutes) on the average in even strength situations(with about an average of 16 minutes spent on special teams),so on most teams there's a large minute per game difference between skating on the top line and say the third line..of course how good the guy taking faceoffs is,really can change the shift chart(not wanting that weak faceoff guy taking draws in your own zone)..this rather large on ice average time difference lets some teams pretty well match up defensive pairings with their top three offensive lines and rotate each of the 3 defensive line pairings with their fourth line some....only bad thing about this is oftentimes your weakest four players are your 4th line,and do you really want your worst two dmen out there when they are too?

personally i never like building that purely defensive line to go out and stop the opponents first line whenever they're out on the ice,except in really unusual situations....because by doing this,you have given away some of the game initiative reacting to the opponent instead of making him react to you more(teams that do this tend to play their checking line much more than their top scoring line oftentimes because the opponent first line is on the ice so much,and because of that their own top line sees less average ice time)....one of the reasons johnson had so much icetime last year and was a -20,because i thought we tried to hard to match up at times instead of letting teams worry about matching up with us,when i thought it'd be better to have had the sully-walks or erat-leggy types lines skating more...but that's the kind of decisions trotz will lean toward with his defense first concept

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