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11 Feb 2012 - Wild vs CBJ - May the Schwartz Be With You! - 7PM CT - FSN

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02-12-2012, 12:54 PM
  #551
Northland Wild Man
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The lack of aggressiveness and physicality on this team disgusts me.

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02-12-2012, 01:07 PM
  #552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
i'm watching the rangers play and how they play is pretty much exactly how the wild used to play when we were winning. somewhere around the beginning of the losing streak we stopped always sending in two guys on the forecheck. Stopped attacking the puck carrier in our zone. that seems like a decision made from the bench, though i can't for the life of me figure out why we'd switch to a more conservative game when we were winning playing a lot more aggressively.
The players quit. I cant imagine that decision came from the coaches.

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02-12-2012, 01:17 PM
  #553
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I felt like Powe was trying last night, but he needs to minimize those penalties.

Brodziak and Johnson need to step it up. They haven't been nearly as effective during this 2nd half of the season.

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02-12-2012, 05:03 PM
  #554
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i want to keep losing. we are 12th in the West, no chance that we are gonna win it all. lets make a trade before the deadline, get a good draft pick and start fresh next year. pray we dont get plagued with injuries again

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02-12-2012, 05:44 PM
  #555
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I felt like Powe was trying last night, but he needs to minimize those penalties.

Brodziak and Johnson need to step it up. They haven't been nearly as effective during this 2nd half of the season.
First loss ever at the X. Seriously was disgusted the entire game to be honest. They were playing like ******* outside of the Brodziak line. Good offensive zone passing (least when I've been there) but they were horrible in the defensive end, as usual

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02-12-2012, 06:17 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by keppel146 View Post
i want to keep losing. we are 12th in the West, no chance that we are gonna win it all. lets make a trade before the deadline, get a good draft pick and start fresh next year. pray we dont get plagued with injuries again
Agree with everything said here except the trade part. We don't need a trade, we need MANY trades. Clean house on defense please Fletcher except for Spurgeon.

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02-12-2012, 08:22 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
How am I supposed to know what is or is not out on the market? I don't know who is or is not available. I find the concept of fantasy trades and what not to be ridiculous and don't take part.

If you want me to say he should have traded Mikko Koivu & 2nd for Eric Staal, that's not my bag. I don't do fantasy trades.

I look back at Fletch's track record compared to Risebrough:

2006 - 11th
2007 - 7th
2008 - 3rd
2009 - 9th
-------------
2010 - 13th
2011 - 12th
2012 - 12th

Post lockout, Risebrough's team made the playoffs twice and finished 9th and 11th. Right now Fletcher's team has yet to finish better that Risebrough's worst team.

Am I supposed to give Fletch a gold ****ing star for effort? In what way does finishing in the bottom four in the conference three years in a row display Fletch's ability to construct a quality NHL roster?

Yes he's made nice moves. Johnson is a good 3rd liner from the scrap heap. Spurgeon is a good 2nd pairing guy. Lats looked like a hell of a player two years ago. Brodziak is a great 3rd line center.

But here's the facts:

13th.
12th.
12th and dropping.
Do you ***** about not winning the powerball when you didn't buy a ticket too? You can whine all about the standings you want, but what's the other option for Fletcher? To trade for Jeff Carter? We see how that worked out. Maybe make a move for Mike Richards? While working better, that's not a pretty situation either. You're so willing to sit here whining about Fletcher not making moves, but 99.9999% of the time, the best move is to do nothing. Quite simply, there isn't a single move that Fletcher could make that would be a positive for the team. His only option for trades is to overpay with futures for short term bandaids. His only option for free agency signings are underperforming players on excessive contracts. You've set the rubric so he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Then you have the audacity to whine about it over and over again, but when confronted simply say "I don't do fantasy trades." Well, **** or get off the pot. If you're going to ***** about the things that have or have not happened, you better have an example of something better that could have been done.

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02-12-2012, 09:01 PM
  #558
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And I'm not even looking for "I would trade X and Y for Z and a 3rd". I'm looking for "I would have made a play to get X at last years deadline" or "I would have tried to get X during free agency".

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02-13-2012, 12:25 AM
  #559
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How in the world would you be able to judge these fantasy trades I'm supposed to come up with? Let's say he passes on Cullen and offers Jokinen $5m a year...how do we know if/how that helps or hurts the team? Or what if he didn't sign Cullen and instead traded for Turris? What if he didn't trade Burns and instead extended him, then traded Zidlicky? How am I supposed to know how those things would have affected the team? I don't have a crystal ball.

I don't feel I need to justify his inability to field a quality NHL team beyond the standings. Fletcher is ultimately responsible for the players, the coach, the trainer, literally every working aspect of the club.

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02-13-2012, 12:37 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
How in the world would you be able to judge these fantasy trades I'm supposed to come up with? Let's say he passes on Cullen and offers Jokinen $5m a year...how do we know if/how that helps or hurts the team? Or what if he didn't sign Cullen and instead traded for Turris? What if he didn't trade Burns and instead extended him, then traded Zidlicky? How am I supposed to know how those things would have affected the team? I don't have a crystal ball.

I don't feel I need to justify his inability to field a quality NHL team beyond the standings. Fletcher is ultimately responsible for the players, the coach, the trainer, literally every working aspect of the club.
You cant judge them, thats one of the problems of what ifs. But the point is youre not even offering the what ifs and just criticizing, and you have been for months. So what the hell would you try to do if you were a GM?

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02-13-2012, 12:56 AM
  #561
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I don't see why I should have to provide an alternate reality!

I can tell you that, for instance, Blake Shelton did a crap job singing before the Superbowl. Does that mean I can do a better job? No. It just means he did a crappy job.

And if that's hypocrisy, fine. Guess what, thousands of pro scouts assess talent without necessarily being better talent.

All I'm saying is that Fletch has done a crap job putting together an NHL team. I'm not saying I could do a better job, I'm not necessarily saying ANYONE could do a better job. I just don't believe in A for effort or gold stars or participation medallions.

I didn't like the Cullen singing. I thought he was a lateral move from Belanger. I wanted to see Jokinen brought in. That didn't happen. I don't remember who all was left. And all jokes aside, Shep got injured so we couldn't see if he could somehow pull it out.

I didn't like how much money and NTC he gave to Koivu. He far overpaid. Did he have to? I don't know. I think he misjudged his talent level. Frankly Koivu hasn't been nearly as good since he signed that contract and he's been nothing but a surly PITA in the locker room from Russo. He's not providing leadership and he's not providing on ice play. If Columbus was looking for a #1 center, we could have gotten Johansen and another high pick or prospect. Much higher ceiling than Koivu for instance.

I thought Havlat was way underrated for how much offense he provided. He pretty much carried the team last year. I guess Heatley's a better scorer but now with Butch injured and Koivu not living up to his paycheck, we're now short of playmakers once again.

Why the hell couldn't he get Granlund over here this year? He gave Koivu the Brinks truck for no reason at all and then he can't get his star offensive prospect to sign. I realize that's Granlund's decision but...why then did he go after Setoguchi and Heatley and pretend that they would lead the team to the promised land?

Why didn't he add any decent defensemen in free agency? He got Lundin who apparently everyone on the coaching staff hates because he can't ever get in the lineup. But you traded away Brent Burns, and you did absolutely jack to replace him or add any puck movement. It was clear from the second Johnsson set foot on the airplane out of town the Wild desperately needs a puck mover...and he hasn't addressed that at all. I mean, if you're going to half ass it in the NHL, why not offer money to Sheldon Souray? Or any other defenseman who could move a puck?

Once Butch went down, he should have been aggressive in acquiring some talented forward. Maybe Turris, maybe whoever else was on the block. You don't piss away a 1st place standing like he did. Maybe you give up Phillips, or Zucker, or Haula, or Spurgeon. Maybe that makes the team worse. But you can't just call up Kassian and Ortmeyer and Peters and say "oh we got this."

Now it's entirely possible that Fletch knows the team sucks, doesn't care if they don't make the playoffs, has Leipold's blessing, and just wants to stockpile picks, but has to have token "stars" like Heatley and Setoguchi. Maybe he's a super genius. And he's done a phenomenal job in the draft, at least as far as we know, because none of his guys have played in the NHL yet.

But there is exactly only one way to judge how well an NHL team is put together. It's not Corsi, or PDO, or goal differential, or effort, or compete level, it's not bounces, it's not goals or shots, it's just plain standings. The Wild have plummeted from 1st to 12th. Nobody can tell me that he's done a great job when they're going to be drafting top 10 for the third straight year.

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02-13-2012, 01:41 AM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post

All I'm saying is that Fletch has done a crap job putting together an NHL team. I'm not saying I could do a better job, I'm not necessarily saying ANYONE could do a better job. I just don't believe in A for effort or gold stars or participation medallions.

I didn't like the Cullen singing. .

I didn't like how much money and NTC he gave to Koivu. He far overpaid. Did he have to? I don't know. I think he misjudged his talent level. Frankly Koivu hasn't been nearly as good since he signed that contract and he's been nothing but a surly PITA in the locker room from Russo. He's not providing leadership and he's not providing on ice play. If Columbus was looking for a #1 center, we could have gotten Johansen and another high pick or prospect. Much higher ceiling than Koivu for instance.

I thought Havlat was way underrated for how much offense he provided. He pretty much carried the team last year. I guess Heatley's a better scorer but now with Butch injured and Koivu not living up to his paycheck, we're now short of playmakers once again.

Why didn't he add any decent defensemen in free agency?

Now it's entirely possible that Fletch knows the team sucks, doesn't care if they don't make the playoffs, has Leipold's blessing, and just wants to stockpile picks, but has to have token "stars" like Heatley and Setoguchi. Maybe he's a super genius. And he's done a phenomenal job in the draft, at least as far as we know, because none of his guys have played in the NHL yet.
These are extremely valid points and yes GMCF has made a lot of mistakes. But each of these situations needs to be looked at in context because they all have answers to why GMCF acted the way he did.

A) When the wild signed cullen they were still in the mode of 'find as many NHL bodies as you can and hope its enough to make the playoffs'. We had a crappy team before so we had to overpay to get guys like Cullen to come here. I would guess GMCF pursued Jokinen and Jokinen didn't take the bait. Thus we get Cullen.

B) Koivu was given that money because the wild absolutely could not lose him. Its not that he is the class of elite player but because he is the closest we have to it. He was paid to stay here as the cornerstone of this franchise. Not a huge fan of his cap hit at his production level but it is what it is. Now whether you can build a team around koivu is another debate but its the route the GMCF chose to go. We'll see.

C) Havlat wasn't traded because of his lack of production but because of his piss poor attitude and inconsistent level of play. I say that as a huge havlat fan. I was really excited to see havlat with seto, thought it could have worked out nicely. But the man didn't want to be here.

D) Did you see what defensemen went for this summer? I was actually relieved that Fletch kept his hands out of the cookie jar. This team dropped the strategy of overpaying for mediocrity this past summer. Its a timing thing. The wild need to keep flexible cap space so the right move can be made at the right time. The wild clearly weren't gunning for the playoffs this offseason (lets be real, we wouldn't have traded burns if we were).

Here is my take on fletcher: he was hired because he told the owner he thought this was a playoff team (face it, if he didn't he wouldn't have been hired). Thus he was forced to go out and overspend on free agents to give his roster at least on opportunity. He tried this for two seasons but clearly given the state of A) the skill level of the team itself and B) the lack of depth in the organization the wild were not going to make the playoffs.

So now the organization is trying to infuse more skill throughout the entire organization in order to build a team not just for next year but years down the road. The unforunate thing is that infusion of skill should have happened when it became apparent that Gaborik wasn't going to sign. When that didn't happen it should have happened when the wild brought in a new General manager. But the owner wanted to hear playoffs so the wild wasted about three years before actually trying to do something about it. Blame GMCF, blame GMDR, blame craig leopold. doesn't really matter. Because in reality the wild are in this position because of the philosophy of the organization. That changed this past summer.

Luckily, those changes will start to drastically effect this organization starting this trade deadline and into this summer. IE, I expect that if brodziak cannot be signed he will be moved.

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02-13-2012, 01:45 AM
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I don't see why I should have to provide an alternate reality!

I can tell you that, for instance, Blake Shelton did a crap job singing before the Superbowl. Does that mean I can do a better job? No. It just means he did a crappy job.

And if that's hypocrisy, fine. Guess what, thousands of pro scouts assess talent without necessarily being better talent.

All I'm saying is that Fletch has done a crap job putting together an NHL team. I'm not saying I could do a better job, I'm not necessarily saying ANYONE could do a better job. I just don't believe in A for effort or gold stars or participation medallions.

I didn't like the Cullen singing. I thought he was a lateral move from Belanger. I wanted to see Jokinen brought in. That didn't happen. I don't remember who all was left. And all jokes aside, Shep got injured so we couldn't see if he could somehow pull it out.

I didn't like how much money and NTC he gave to Koivu. He far overpaid. Did he have to? I don't know. I think he misjudged his talent level. Frankly Koivu hasn't been nearly as good since he signed that contract and he's been nothing but a surly PITA in the locker room from Russo. He's not providing leadership and he's not providing on ice play. If Columbus was looking for a #1 center, we could have gotten Johansen and another high pick or prospect. Much higher ceiling than Koivu for instance.

I thought Havlat was way underrated for how much offense he provided. He pretty much carried the team last year. I guess Heatley's a better scorer but now with Butch injured and Koivu not living up to his paycheck, we're now short of playmakers once again.

Why the hell couldn't he get Granlund over here this year? He gave Koivu the Brinks truck for no reason at all and then he can't get his star offensive prospect to sign. I realize that's Granlund's decision but...why then did he go after Setoguchi and Heatley and pretend that they would lead the team to the promised land?

Why didn't he add any decent defensemen in free agency? He got Lundin who apparently everyone on the coaching staff hates because he can't ever get in the lineup. But you traded away Brent Burns, and you did absolutely jack to replace him or add any puck movement. It was clear from the second Johnsson set foot on the airplane out of town the Wild desperately needs a puck mover...and he hasn't addressed that at all. I mean, if you're going to half ass it in the NHL, why not offer money to Sheldon Souray? Or any other defenseman who could move a puck?

Once Butch went down, he should have been aggressive in acquiring some talented forward. Maybe Turris, maybe whoever else was on the block. You don't piss away a 1st place standing like he did. Maybe you give up Phillips, or Zucker, or Haula, or Spurgeon. Maybe that makes the team worse. But you can't just call up Kassian and Ortmeyer and Peters and say "oh we got this."

Now it's entirely possible that Fletch knows the team sucks, doesn't care if they don't make the playoffs, has Leipold's blessing, and just wants to stockpile picks, but has to have token "stars" like Heatley and Setoguchi. Maybe he's a super genius. And he's done a phenomenal job in the draft, at least as far as we know, because none of his guys have played in the NHL yet.

But there is exactly only one way to judge how well an NHL team is put together. It's not Corsi, or PDO, or goal differential, or effort, or compete level, it's not bounces, it's not goals or shots, it's just plain standings. The Wild have plummeted from 1st to 12th. Nobody can tell me that he's done a great job when they're going to be drafting top 10 for the third straight year.
Thank you. Thank you for finally telling us what you would have done instead of just going on again about how you think Fletcher sucks.

Yeah, a lot of those are good moves or non-moves worth questioning. The no-dmen in the last offseason is the one that has me the most mystified.

The Koivu thing is also another good point, and I have to think a good part of all of that is to show Granlund he'll more or less be treated like royalty here. I have a suspicion that Granlund doesn't want to play for the wild very much and that's why he is dragging his feet, and Fletcher is more or less giving Koivu free reign so that Granlund will HAVE to sign or he will look like he is snubbing the Captain of Team Finland. Is Koivu playing up to his contract? Hell no.

Does he probably have some form of the "I just got paid, so why should I work my ass off like that" bug? Absolutely. Part of the reason any athlete at the pro level works his ass off is so some team will give him the big bucks and hope he will continue playing at that level. Buy what a bunch of suckers all GMs in all sports are huh? Guess thats why I wish the NHL would adopt the NFL's policy of NOT guaranteeing the contract, and just allowing teams to cut a player who stops producing.

I am willing to bet he has been trying his damnedest since early in the season when scoring first became apparent as an issue to try to add someone, but as has been discussed elsewhere, making a trade in the salary cap era is insanely hard because you almost always have to overpay.

I am also willing to bet that he has a very rigid plan of development for this team and considering how we've more or less got nobody in terms of truly desirable players to offer to teams, most, if not all of the trade proposals Fletcher has heard have hinged on future draft picks or prospects, something this team still cant afford to let go of because of how useless everyone in Houston is to the Wild at this point. So the question in trade then becomes is it worth it to pay this potential future player in order to get a living body now, and I'm willing to bet the answer to that question is always no because of the overpayment factor. Is there a possibility that Fletcher is overvaluing his own prospect pool? Possibly. But even if some of those prospects don't turn out to be the superstars they're made out to be, and end up only as AHL'ers who can occasionally come up and plug a hole effectively for only a handful of games at a time, they're still upgrades from who we have in Houston now. And we have seen this season how important Houston has to be to the Wild's depth. I would really love to see a chart of how many games have been played at the NHL level by full time NHLers vs AHLers this year compared to other years.

I think the trades he has made have been competent. Wellman wasnt working out here, and Christensen has shown that when he does contribute, he can contribute at an NHL level, he just needs to fit in. He has only been here a few games, so I dont get how people are calling that trade a steal by New York at this point. Even if he doesnt work out we still have a conditional draft pick that could probably be used to draft someone who could fill Wellmans shoes in Houston.

The problem is that this team was more or less gutted when he came here, and it is very hard to build a team through trades and free agency in the salary cap era. What we should be doing is considering his first year to be the equivalent of an expansion year, because we were basically left with a roster and prospect pool that is worse than a fresh off the expansion draft expansion teams roster and prospect pool. If you look at our finishes in the context of an expansion team then the finishes start to make sense.

This is worse than just a rebuilding. Rebuilding implies that theres something of a foundation to work with when building up. No, this is more or less building from scratch without the benefit of an expansion draft by which to steal a few decent players from the other teams. I'm pretty sure that's how Fletcher is looking at things, and that is why he is not pulling the trigger on any trades. He has nothing other teams want besides our picks and prospects, and those are too important for giving this team an actual foundation to support the construction of a winning team.

If we were looking at some kind of closing window in which to either win the Cup or fade to mediocrity I would say pull the trigger and get that player to get us over the top. But right now that window doesnt even exist yet. So why make a reckless move? I don't want to burn off Granlund or Coyle or Brodin just so we can ensure we make the 6th seed in the playoffs and get bounced out by San Jose in 5 games.

I am willing to give Fletch at least until next year, when some of his picks should start showing up here, to produce some results. Once we've seen some of his draft picks in action with the head coach he has picked, then we can start making a truly fair assessment about his abilities as a GM. Until then, we should look at this year as an experiment that almost went horribly right, consider what Yeo has shown his system to be capable of, and let the upcoming offseason happen.

Yeah, its tough as hell, and it sucks balls, but thats how bad this team was after DR basically ran us into the ground. Look at his last few years as a GM as if he is trying to jump through a window that her percieves as open, and missing completely and running into the wall and falling through a crumbling floor all the way into the cellar, and then the house crumbles all around him from the force of the impact, foundation at all. Thats how I see things. Fletcher now has to rebuild that house, and you only get so many bricks per year.

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02-13-2012, 01:51 AM
  #564
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I should also make clear I have no desire to see Fletch fired this year. Maybe after next year, if his prospects fall on their faces...but not this year. I want to see what his picks can do at the NHL level.

I just want to call out the truth and reality...and that is the Wild are a terrible NHL team. And he's the one ultimately responsible for that.

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02-13-2012, 02:00 AM
  #565
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I should also make clear I have no desire to see Fletch fired this year. Maybe after next year, if his prospects fall on their faces...but not this year. I want to see what his picks can do at the NHL level.

I just want to call out the truth and reality...and that is the Wild are a terrible NHL team. And he's the one ultimately responsible for that.

Have to disagree with you on that last point. This pile of crap isn't on the GM, its on the players for being gutless cowards too afraid of failure to play the system as Yeo has outlined it. If they were out there every night giving it their all within the system and still losing, I would say its on Fletcher, but thats not the case. They're out there on the ice taking a dump game after game. Even last night against Columbus... yeah the effort was there but it wasn't within the system.

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02-13-2012, 03:19 AM
  #566
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Have to disagree with you on that last point. This pile of crap isn't on the GM, its on the players for being gutless cowards too afraid of failure to play the system as Yeo has outlined it. If they were out there every night giving it their all within the system and still losing, I would say its on Fletcher, but thats not the case. They're out there on the ice taking a dump game after game. Even last night against Columbus... yeah the effort was there but it wasn't within the system.
Actually some of that is on the GM tho. He is the one that picked the gutless cowards as you say to be on the team.

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02-13-2012, 05:50 AM
  #567
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I should also make clear I have no desire to see Fletch fired this year. Maybe after next year, if his prospects fall on their faces...but not this year. I want to see what his picks can do at the NHL level.

I just want to call out the truth and reality...and that is the Wild are a terrible NHL team. And he's the one ultimately responsible for that.
We get it. You're angry/sad. Go pout in the corner.

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