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RC "getting it" the way JM never did... OR NOT

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Old
02-25-2012, 07:35 PM
  #226
smon
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Well, Cunneyworth is clearly gone at the end of the year, so you can't help but feel some sympathy for him riding out the string. But on the other hand, he knew what he was getting into and some NHL head coaching experience is not bad for the resume.

Leaving that aside, not exactly much of a system. Dump and chase. Might work with a different set of forwards... not suited for the current line-up.

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02-25-2012, 07:41 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Tiger Svoboda View Post
Martin was able to get the best out of this team and led them to overachieved. The talent available was limited.

Some like to describe his personality as boring but this is what you need in a circus like MTL.

Firing him was a mistake and we saw what hapenned there after.
The mistake was to hire Martin. Firing him was long overdue, as was the tanking as it should finally allow for proper retooling.

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02-26-2012, 12:38 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
Well, Cunneyworth is clearly gone at the end of the year, so you can't help but feel some sympathy for him riding out the string. But on the other hand, he knew what he was getting into and some NHL head coaching experience is not bad for the resume.

Leaving that aside, not exactly much of a system. Dump and chase. Might work with a different set of forwards... not suited for the current line-up.
Good enough for AHL.

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02-26-2012, 12:39 PM
  #229
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The mistake was to hire Martin. Firing him was long overdue, as was the tanking as it should finally allow for proper retooling.
Martin brought that team to winning seasons and playoffs, even a Conference Finals.

Boring as hell, but a good professional coach anyway.

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02-26-2012, 02:15 PM
  #230
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I am someone who really wants a person to get a full shot at their job once they join this organization, be it as a player or in mangement. Except for his horrible people skills I thought PG wasnt doing a bad job ( Kaberle not happy with though ) and I thought at least RC has a forecheck going and maybe was trying to cater a system more suited to the players as opposed to pigeon holing them into a system that wasnt working. But Im done. Hearing about Pleks now convinces me the morale on this team is completely shot and even starting a new season next year wont likely be enough for the players to start fresh. PG needs to go and so does RC, the players need to start without the baggage they are obviously carrying with how the team and organization has been run this year.

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02-26-2012, 05:01 PM
  #231
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Martin brought that team to winning seasons and playoffs, even a Conference Finals.

Boring as hell, but a good professional coach anyway.
That's such a bunch of crock. It's like judging a player by his stats only, no knowledge needed. Truth is Halak, Cammalleri and to a lesser point Gionta brought Martin's sorry ass to the Conference finals in spite of him! Anyway, we won't agree on that I can tell you right now...

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02-26-2012, 05:10 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's such a bunch of crock. It's like judging a player by his stats only, no knowledge needed. Truth is Halak, Cammalleri and to a lesser point Gionta brought Martin's sorry ass to the Conference finals in spite of him! Anyway, we won't agree on that I can tell you right now...
Right, and don't forget Plekanec, Gill and Gorges for playing great shutdown roles. Moore, Lappy and Moen also played their role really well. Oh, and can't forget the stellar job PK and Hammer also did, and an honorable mention to Gomez's production.

People make me laugh when they say it's only thanks to player x or y. Everyone played a role, including Martin. I don't care how much you hate him, doesn't mean you have to be stupid.


Last edited by Kriss E: 02-26-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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02-26-2012, 05:51 PM
  #233
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My new favorite thing about RC's system. Dump in the puck, the forward retrieves it, sends it to the point, but RC calls for a defensive line change, so D man is not at the blue line to recieve the pass. Happened 5 times tonight.

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02-26-2012, 06:19 PM
  #234
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My new favorite thing about RC's system. Dump in the puck, the forward retrieves it, sends it to the point, but RC calls for a defensive line change, so D man is not at the blue line to recieve the pass. Happened 5 times tonight.
Habs are using the dump & change system.

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02-26-2012, 06:24 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
Well, Cunneyworth is clearly gone at the end of the year, so you can't help but feel some sympathy for him riding out the string. But on the other hand, he knew what he was getting into and some NHL head coaching experience is not bad for the resume.

Leaving that aside, not exactly much of a system. Dump and chase. Might work with a different set of forwards... not suited for the current line-up.
Got no sympathy for him. He's our Dave Allison.

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02-26-2012, 06:29 PM
  #236
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Thread always cracks me up every time it gets bumped.

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02-26-2012, 06:40 PM
  #237
Kriss E
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Got no sympathy for him. He's our Dave Allison.
He used to get some from me, because of the tough situation he was put in, but I can't anymore.

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02-26-2012, 06:42 PM
  #238
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He used to get some from me, because of the tough situation he was put in, but I can't anymore.
Agreed.......the season can't end soon enough...RC was set up to fail...

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02-26-2012, 06:47 PM
  #239
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At this point whatever sympathy I had for Cunneyworth has been avoided by his complete inability to adjust and destroying the confidence of half the players, including some of the younger ones. Just can't wait to get a real coach.

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02-26-2012, 07:02 PM
  #240
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Lately I think we're watching what a team trying play a system its completely unsuited for actually looks like. This chip and chase stuff is terrible.

Cammalleri's comments about the coach's strategy are looking even more apt right now.

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02-26-2012, 07:03 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Lately I think we're watching what a team trying play a system its completely unsuited for actually looks like. This chip and chase stuff is terrible.
There's a team makeup that could be successful with this?

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02-26-2012, 07:08 PM
  #242
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There's a team makeup that could be successful with this?
Maybe the Bruins? I'm not sure, the dump-and-chase works when the other team's d-men are immobile and our d-men have offensive vision. Unfortunately our d-men don't, at all.

I don't want to go back to the 'hold on to your butt and squeeze out a victory' Martin system but a forecheck *is* useful, no?

I think I just want a puck possession team, even if they back pass a lot, just a team that OWNS the puck and splits apart the other team's trap with head-up passes.

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02-26-2012, 07:25 PM
  #243
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Goals against under Cunneyworth: 2.72
Goals against under Martin: 2.68

Goals for under Cunneyworth: 2.76
Goals for under Martin: 2.59

ours goals for and against is marginally better under Cunneyworth, however this could still obviously change. Had we run these numbers just one week ago the numbers heavily favored Martin. The defense ppg can basically be directly attributed to Cunneyworth having Kaberle instead of Spacek, something that Martin did not have for more than a game or two. The best part of your post though was "similar goals against but more goals for". What you meant to say was more goals against but also more goals for. Something that right before our winning streak began was terribly untrue as we had score .01 more goals per game under Cunneyworth but allowed substantially more goals against.

Essentialy Cunneyworth's numbers are heavily inflated because of the last week. The last week could simply be a sign of things to come, or it could be a blip in the radar. Its too early to say for sure. We have a tough game against the Bruins coming up, a team that Martin was very successful against, but a team that Cunneyworth is yet to beat.
Here is an update now that its been 2 weeks just about and both coaches have coached basically the same number of games.

Under Cunneyworth we have allowed 88 goals and scored 79 in 31 games.

2.84 ga/g, 2.55 gf/g

Under Martin we allowed 83 goals and scored 82 in 32 games.

2.59 ga/g, 2.56 gf/g

The statistics show that we have considerably regressed defensively under Cunneyworth. Cunneyworth is on pace to surrender 20 goals more than Martin's squad would have over an 82 game schedule. We have basically stayed the same offensively, however it is worth noting that we have had more offensive approach under Cunneyworth as evidenced by the Kaberle pick up, something that Martin had for all of 3 games. This of course is at the expense of a lot of defence. One could argue that part of the reason for the defensive decline was trading away Spacek, however that would be a dumb argument. If Spacek was good enough to make a 20 goal a season difference defensively then he'd be among the top defenders in the league.

In case anybody was wondering, our records under the two coaches also bears out the statistical decline.

Martin: 13-12-7
Cunneyworth: 11-17-3

Under Cunneyworth only Columbus is worse than us. Under Martin we we would be tied with Toronto, only 3 points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand.

I've said it in previous seasons and I will say it again now. Jacques Martin was keeping us from being among the league's worst teams the last two years. Right now we are seeing proof that we literally are one of the league's worst teams without him.

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02-26-2012, 07:28 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Here is an update now that its been 2 weeks just about and both coaches have coached basically the same number of games.

Under Cunneyworth we have allowed 88 goals and scored 79 in 31 games.

2.84 ga/g, 2.55 gf/g

Under Martin we allowed 83 goals and scored 82 in 32 games.

2.59 ga/g, 2.56 gf/g

The statistics show that we have considerably regressed defensively under Cunneyworth. Cunneyworth is on pace to surrender 20 goals more than Martin's squad would have over an 82 game schedule. We have basically stayed the same offensively, however it is worth noting that we have had more offensive approach under Cunneyworth as evidenced by the Kaberle pick up, something that Martin had for all of 3 games. This of course is at the expense of a lot of defence. One could argue that part of the reason for the defensive decline was trading away Spacek, however that would be a dumb argument. If Spacek was good enough to make a 20 goal a season difference defensively then he'd be among the top defenders in the league.

In case anybody was wondering, our records under the two coaches also bears out the statistical decline.

Martin: 13-12-7
Cunneyworth: 11-17-3

Under Cunneyworth only Columbus is worse than us. Under Martin we we would be tied with Toronto, only 3 points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand.

I've said it in previous seasons and I will say it again now. Jacques Martin was keeping us from being among the league's worst teams the last two years. Right now we are seeing proof that we literally are one of the league's worst teams without him.
Keep in mind Martin also had that disatrous start. Shows how much the team really hauled it in. Wonder what JM would have done with Markov as he has said a few times.

Damn, JM is being defended on these boards... he wasn't the right coach for the team but he definitely knew his hockey...

God, this season is a write off

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Old
02-26-2012, 07:33 PM
  #245
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There's a team makeup that could be successful with this?
Really big and really skilled might manage it. Enough beef and talent that big bodies down low is a good strategy. Plus a blueline that can hold the puck in the offensive zone without forward support.

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02-26-2012, 07:36 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Really big and really skilled might manage it. Enough beef and talent that big bodies down low is a good strategy. Plus a blueline that can hold the puck in the offensive zone without forward support.
So really the answer is "no", especially given the absence of a transition game.

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02-26-2012, 07:45 PM
  #247
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Here is an update now that its been 2 weeks just about and both coaches have coached basically the same number of games.

Under Cunneyworth we have allowed 88 goals and scored 79 in 31 games.

2.84 ga/g, 2.55 gf/g

Under Martin we allowed 83 goals and scored 82 in 32 games.

2.59 ga/g, 2.56 gf/g

The statistics show that we have considerably regressed defensively under Cunneyworth. Cunneyworth is on pace to surrender 20 goals more than Martin's squad would have over an 82 game schedule. We have basically stayed the same offensively, however it is worth noting that we have had more offensive approach under Cunneyworth as evidenced by the Kaberle pick up, something that Martin had for all of 3 games. This of course is at the expense of a lot of defence. One could argue that part of the reason for the defensive decline was trading away Spacek, however that would be a dumb argument. If Spacek was good enough to make a 20 goal a season difference defensively then he'd be among the top defenders in the league.

In case anybody was wondering, our records under the two coaches also bears out the statistical decline.

Martin: 13-12-7
Cunneyworth: 11-17-3

Under Cunneyworth only Columbus is worse than us. Under Martin we we would be tied with Toronto, only 3 points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand.

I've said it in previous seasons and I will say it again now. Jacques Martin was keeping us from being among the league's worst teams the last two years. Right now we are seeing proof that we literally are one of the league's worst teams without him.
That's right.
Take away the 1-5-2 off road start, and Martin was 12-7-5. So there's no reason to think our record would not have continued to improve.

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Old
02-26-2012, 07:46 PM
  #248
Andy
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I love how RC is willing to screw around with every single line aside from Desharnais' line. You are not winning with one line scoring, may as well just try something different for a couple of games. You never know, maybe you'll get two lines going for once.

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02-26-2012, 07:50 PM
  #249
Kriss E
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I love how RC is willing to screw around with every single line aside from Desharnais' line. You are not winning with one line scoring, may as well just try something different for a couple of games. You never know, maybe you'll get two lines going for once.
What's even more surprising is that he's unwilling to try a new combination on the PP as well, and they always get the first D pairings too.

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02-26-2012, 07:52 PM
  #250
Andy
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What's even more surprising is that he's unwilling to try a new combination on the PP as well, and they always get the first D pairings too.
I want to rip my hair out at times. RC is probably pissed that Darche and Moen are hurt because it forces him to play actual offensive players with Plekanec, but even then he can't get it right as he puts Eller on the wing.

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